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Racism in football perceptions

Buffnik

Real name isn't Nik
Club Member
Junta Member
I don't think it's overt or that most people are self-aware most of the time. I think it's the last vestiges of old, wrong beliefs that we're moving beyond. But they still exist and those who control the purse strings & make the decisions are generally white guys from an older generation who grew up & were socialized under a lot of false & hurtful truisms about race.

It wasn't that long ago when the majority of white folks (including those in charge of the decision-making) thought that black guys couldn't handle the mental game of being a quarterback. Particularly at the NFL level.

That has changed. However, we should pay attention to how guys are described. Not just the NFL but all the way down to recruiting. Black QBs are praised for their athleticism. Even to the point where a good number of people automatically assume that someone is a dual-threat QB based on his skin color. Carrying that forward, I don't think I've ever seen a national media piece describe the main asset of a black QB as him being cerebral.

This leads into perceptions and opportunities in coaching. Black coaches are talked about as "motivators" and "players coaches". They may be praised for having an eye for talent. They do not get the same credit for scheme and innovation no matter how good they are. And they certainly don't get the same opportunities to be offensive coordinators where it's perceived more as a chess match whereas defensive coordinators are perceived as coaching up athleticism.

With the front office, it's the same thing. It's always about black guys who succeed being credited as talent evaluators. Not nearly enough credit given for being number crunchers with the roster and cap management skills they've displayed.

I don't really know where I'm going with the post except, maybe, to ask people to have their eyes open and be more aware of how things are presented to us. To spot where messages are shaded in ways that perpetuate old racist stereotypes. And to make sure we are checking our own selves so that we aren't carrying around baggage from socialized and reinforced attitudes that we don't even intellectually agree with. Recognize and flush the poison, so to speak.
 
I think for the most part your perceptions are correct.

Beyond that there some other factors that have led to blacks not getting a fair shot at jobs.

One is the perception that a black coach can't "relate" to the mostly older, white donors. The other is that black coaches won't fit with the athletic directors and university administration.

Guys like David Shaw have proven that both of these aren't true but it still happens.

These hidden biases are likely also responsible for the disturbing trends in the percentage of D1 women's basketball jobs going to men (white men.)

On the positive for a school like Colorado with an athletic director like RG who has proven that he doesn't let color influence his hiring decisions there are bound to be a number of guys out there who deserve to be head coaches who have been overlooked because of their skin color.
 
The illusion to the size of a coach’s penis because of the color of his skin is a great example. Another that has been previously brought up is the possession/route runner trope as being the dominion of white WR’s.
 
The illusion to the size of a coach’s penis because of the color of his skin is a great example. Another that has been previously brought up is the possession/route runner trope as being the dominion of white WR’s.
"allusion"

I also assume that making those sorts of allusions is fine with your own username?

kidding aside - you're right on both counts.
 
Bump.

After sleeping on it for a night, I think these are some things that we should keep in mind.

A couple points that I think are important:

1. Lots of coaches fail and get fired at their first head coaching job, and then find success at their second or third. Belichek is obvious, but we could probably go on for hours and even days coming with more examples.

2. Lots of coaches fail at their first job, and then get a second (or even third) chance and continue their mediocrity. Again, we can go on for days coming with names for this list.

3. Black coaches get *a lot* fewer shots at head coaching jobs. This is just plain true. While it's basically impossible to say any one individual hire has racist motivations, the numbers are so out of whack that it's really hard to say that structural racism factors are not at play.

4. Now go back to the first two lists of names of coaches that failed at one stop but got one (or often more than one) more chance? How many are black?

I could come up with one name. But he was successful at his first stop, and failed at his second, so I'm still trying to come up with a single black coach that failed in his first stop and then got a second chance (I know there's got to be some, but the fact that I can quickly come with 20 or so that aren't black while struggling to name one that is sort of proves the point).

The ultimate place where I landed is that I'm not going to hold the fact that Dorrell seemed to never get a real second chance against him. Guys with his color of skin very, very rarely get those second chances.

In fact, I'm actually leaning the other way: despite the system treating him essentially the same way it treats all "failed" black head coaches, he kept on working.

That shows a tenacity and resiliency that is rare, and is something we should want in our head coach.

I'm actually pretty proud of where our program ended up after this fiasco. It may or may not work out the way I'd like, but this is the type of hire that will pay dividends down the road.
 
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Bump.

After sleeping on it for a night, I think these are some things that we should keep in mind.

A couple points that I think are important:

1. Lots of coaches fail and get fired at their first head coaching job, and then find success at their second or third. Belichek is obvious, but we could probably go on for hours and even days coming with more examples.

2. Lots of coaches fail at their first job, and then get a second (or even third) chance and continue their mediocrity. Again, we can go on for days coming with names for this list.

3. Black coaches get *a lot* fewer shots at head coaching jobs. This is just plain true. While it's basically impossible to say any one individual hire has racist motivations, the numbers are so out of whack that it's really hard to say that structural racism factors are not at play.

4. Now go back to the first two lists of names of coaches that failed at one stop but got one (or often more than one) more chance? How many are black?

I could come up with one name. But he was successful at his first stop, and failed at his second, so I'm still trying to come up with a single black coach that failed in his first stop and then got a second chance (I know there's got to be some, but the fact that I can quickly come with 20 or so that aren't black while struggling to name one that is sort of proves the point).

The ultimate place where I landed is that I'm not going to hold the fact that Dorrell seemed to never get a real second chance against him. Guys with his color of skin very, very rarely get those second chances.

In fact, I'm actually leaning the other way: despite the system treating him essentially the same way it treats all "failed" black head coaches, he kept on working.

That shows a tenacity and resiliency that is rare, and is something we should want in our head coach.

I'm actually pretty proud of where our program ended up after this fiasco. It may or may not work out the way I'd like, but this is the type of hire that will pay dividends down the road.
Honestly, I had no clue who Karl Dorrell was when the news broke last night. I didn’t even see a picture of the guy until a couple hours after I have voiced my displeasure. I just assumed he was white.
So, while I agree with the overall theme of your post, skin color plays no role in me being underwhelmed by this hire.
 
Honestly, I had no clue who Karl Dorrell was when the news broke last night. I didn’t even see a picture of the guy until a couple hours after I have voiced my displeasure. I just assumed he was white.
So, while I agree with the overall theme of your post, skin color plays no role in me being underwhelmed by this hire.
I don't think it played a role in most of our reactions.

What I do think it played a role in is the opportunities he received after he was fired at UCLA.
 
This is why I am interested to see what happens with EB and VJ in the NFL. EB waiting waiting for his chance and will VJ get another?
 
I agree that the structural racism arguments are compelling. I can definitely give them a lot of credence, especially when evaluating a coach’s performance objectively.

Where I am struggling is KD’s inability to get his guys to recruit at UCLA. This is alarming to me.
Yeah, that's a real red flag to me too.

My main point in this thread is to counter what several others have looked at as a "major problem:" his lack of opportunities after getting fired at UCLA. I just have a hard time saying that his not getting those opportunities is due to anything intrinsic to him as much as systemic race issues.
 
I agree that the structural racism arguments are compelling. I can definitely give them a lot of credence, especially when evaluating a coach’s performance objectively.

Where I am struggling is KD’s inability to get his guys to recruit at UCLA. This is alarming to me.
He was very young back then too. He has grown and matured.
 
Bump.

After sleeping on it for a night, I think these are some things that we should keep in mind.

A couple points that I think are important:

1. Lots of coaches fail and get fired at their first head coaching job, and then find success at their second or third. Belichek is obvious, but we could probably go on for hours and even days coming with more examples.

2. Lots of coaches fail at their first job, and then get a second (or even third) chance and continue their mediocrity. Again, we can go on for days coming with names for this list.

3. Black coaches get *a lot* fewer shots at head coaching jobs. This is just plain true. While it's basically impossible to say any one individual hire has racist motivations, the numbers are so out of whack that it's really hard to say that structural racism factors are not at play.

4. Now go back to the first two lists of names of coaches that failed at one stop but got one (or often more than one) more chance? How many are black?

I could come up with one name. But he was successful at his first stop, and failed at his second, so I'm still trying to come up with a single black coach that failed in his first stop and then got a second chance (I know there's got to be some, but the fact that I can quickly come with 20 or so that aren't black while struggling to name one that is sort of proves the point).

The ultimate place where I landed is that I'm not going to hold the fact that Dorrell seemed to never get a real second chance against him. Guys with his color of skin very, very rarely get those second chances.

In fact, I'm actually leaning the other way: despite the system treating him essentially the same way it treats all "failed" black head coaches, he kept on working.

That shows a tenacity and resiliency that is rare, and is something we should want in our head coach.

I'm actually pretty proud of where our program ended up after this fiasco. It may or may not work out the way I'd like, but this is the type of hire that will pay dividends down the road.
Best post since the Dorrell news leaked. Thank you @skibum for this well thought out post.
 
I agree that the structural racism arguments are compelling. I can definitely give them a lot of credence, especially when evaluating a coach’s performance objectively.

Where I am struggling is KD’s inability to get his guys to recruit at UCLA. This is alarming to me.
Where is this recruiting nonsense coming from? He was at UCLA for five years. 2003 they did keep rankings so we can throw that out. From 04 to 06 the classes were ranked 31st, 21st and 15th. In 07 the year he was fired it was 53rd. Colorado fans have a problem with this?
 
Where is this recruiting nonsense coming from? He was at UCLA for five years. 2003 they did keep rankings so we can throw that out. From 04 to 06 the classes were ranked 31st, 21st and 15th. In 07 the year he was fired it was 53rd. Colorado fans have a problem with this?

I explored UCLA’s recruiting rankings in the P10 here:

 
Where is this recruiting nonsense coming from? He was at UCLA for five years. 2003 they did keep rankings so we can throw that out. From 04 to 06 the classes were ranked 31st, 21st and 15th. In 07 the year he was fired it was 53rd. Colorado fans have a problem with this?
Yes. It was UCLA and he'd poached EB and Embo as recruiters at the time they were at the top of their game. It was not good recruiting at UCLA for that time and circumstances. It was not his emphasis. And it has never been something he is particularly good at himself.

P.S. EB & Embo both saw the writing on the wall. They both bolted after 2005 to NFL position coach opportunities.
 
I explored UCLA’s recruiting rankings in the P10 here:

Colorado from 04 to 06 ranked 43rd, 41st and 44th nationally. The rankings I used are national rankings. The year he was fired is the only year CU ranked ahead of them.
 
Yes. It was UCLA and he'd poached EB and Embo as recruiters at the time they were at the top of their game. It was not good recruiting at UCLA for that time and circumstances. It was not his emphasis. And it has never been something he is particularly good at himself.

P.S. EB & Embo both saw the writing on the wall. They both bolted after 2005 to NFL position coach opportunities.
Ok. I'm not here to change minds. I'm going by the numbers I see. Those guys left after 05 and the class was 15th in 06.
 
Colorado from 04 to 06 ranked 43rd, 41st and 44th nationally. The rankings I used are national rankings. The year he was fired is the only year CU ranked ahead of them.
You're telling me that the guy, recruiting for a Los Angeles program, was able to out-recruit CU-Boulder 2/3 years while we were in the midst of a national scandal and draconian self-imposed recruiting restrictions? Cool.
 
Ok. I'm not here to change minds. I'm going by the numbers I see. Those guys left after 05 and the class was 15th in 06.
By the numbers, you have 90% of your class committed by December of the calendar year that precedes the recruiting year (February).
 
You're telling me that the guy, recruiting for a Los Angeles program, was able to out-recruit CU-Boulder 2/3 years while we were in the midst of a national scandal and draconian self-imposed recruiting restrictions? Cool.
You're telling me that the guy, recruiting for a Los Angeles program, was able to out-recruit CU-Boulder 2/3 years while we were in the midst of a national scandal and draconian self-imposed recruiting restrictions? Cool.
I was responding to manhattanbuf. Maybe those weren't Cocoa Puffs you ate this morning. Calm down I having a conversation, not looking for a fight.
 
Colorado from 04 to 06 ranked 43rd, 41st and 44th nationally. The rankings I used are national rankings. The year he was fired is the only year CU ranked ahead of them.
247 has a better composite ranking system. Go to their site and look up ratings by conference while KD was employed there. Tell me what you find.

 
3 of our last 5 HC are American's of African decent. It will be cool when the day comes when that s*** don't matter, but still glad that CU isn't passing on hiring someone based on their ethnicity.
 
I agree that the structural racism arguments are compelling. I can definitely give them a lot of credence, especially when evaluating a coach’s performance objectively.

Where I am struggling is KD’s inability to get his guys to recruit at UCLA. This is alarming to me.
Agree with you in regards to the recruiting issues.

I strongly believe the recruiting is selling and selling is much less "natural ability" than it is an innate drive to outwork the other guy and to relentlessly pursue the close. When I was working with salespeople I found it very rare that somebody acquired that drive later in their career, more lost it.

A concern to me about Dorrell is that not only was he not getting the head coaching calls (which as mentioned above few AA coaches get that second call) but he was also not getting the leadership and responsibility positions that the guys who are standouts get.

Yes white coaches get the call more easily to become head coaches but once in those positions they want the best they can find at the positions that mean the most in them keeping that head coaching job. Dorrell was getting position coaching jobs, not coordinator jobs. in the six jobs he has had since losing the UCLA job one included an Offensive Coordinator title (one year at Vandy) and one included an Assistant Head Coach (one year with the Dophins.)

I do remember from his time in Boulder that he seemed like a good guy who communicated well with his players and staff. I'm willing to give him the benefit of a doubt and will support him as our coach but it's hard to get overly excited about him at this point.
 
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