Annual Game with CSU - wanted to get updated opinions

[Buffnik]

There are a lot of things we don't like about the series that we've talked about a lot.

- Rivalry with a non-BCS lessens the CU brand
- Animosity it creates within the state hurts the CU brand
- Don't like going to Denver and don't make enough money in Ft. Collins
- Probably some other things on this list

On the positive side...

- It's a big attendance draw and money maker for CU
- There is a lot of history to the series and tradition is important to college football
- It gets a lot of press and water cooler conversation going

We're at a crossroads right now for a number of reasons.

1. CU is making an unprecedented stadium investment and CSU is attempting to build an on-campus stadium. We have to assume that this changes minds in both athletic departments and that neither school wants to be playing in Denver every year while missing an on-campus opportunity for a sold out game.

2. CU, as a member of the Pac-12, now is playing a 9-game conference schedule. At the time the contract with CSU was signed, CU had an 8-game conference schedule. With less scheduling flexibility as a baseline for CU seasons these days, a locked-in 10th game makes less sense than it did before.

3. CU needs to consider scheduling for football in the near future the way that CU has altered its basketball approach to the non-conference. With a playoff starting this year which could quickly grow to 8 or 16, we may be looking at ways to maximize football RPI in order to get into that playoff. Is this game worth the risk? CSU doesn't sleepwalk through this one. It's important. But for CU, is it worthwhile to play when a loss hurts out of proportion to how much a win helps?

Poll to follow. (I didn't include options of playing 2-for-1s or playing the CSU home game at Invesco, because I don't believe those would be on the table.)

 

[SpacemanSpiff]

I love that Nik is concerned with our eligibility for a playoff bracket!

You already know the answer to this. I think the expanded conference slate is the new driver here.

I will consider it a huge win if RG can move this game back to campus as a first step to eliminating it all together as a yearly game.

 

[Buffalo Brad]

Fire...that is all

 

[Buffnik]

@SpacemanSpiff I bring it up because if Rick George is doing his job like I think he is... he's also trying to anticipate the future.

If we believe that CU is going to be somewhere between sucking and mediocre as a football school now and into the future, then it changes a lot of the calculations. Sure, play CSU every year. Try to get AFA and WYO too, since they'd be good draws. We'd have our 12-game seasons set and make the local media happy. And if we're going to suck anyway, we may as well do it with Colorado players. If any in-state recruit has an FBS offer, CU should be doing all it can to get him to sign with CU. Also, probably should save a bunch of money by replacing MacIntyre with Logan once the contract expires. And it was silly to spend the money on Rick George when Mike Bohn was a favorite son who loved the parades and pageantry. Finally - drop this silly facility project. For that kind of money, CU could add a women's bowling team and build an entire school dedicated to the academic major of beekeeping.

 

[TimmyDUBs]

Front range cycle. Get the whole population in the Mountain time zone from NM up through Wyoming excited for their turn, and show every solid recruit on the front range that the best come to Boulder

 

[ElCunado]

I think fire is too good for this game.

 

[dio]

Burn.it.down

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[MtnBuff]

This game needs to go away and I hope RG does that.

At the same time we need M2 to do his part as well. As long as the sheep fans can point to some wins and some "close" games they will whine for all eternity that CU is "dodging" them and the rest of their vocal bile.

We need M2 to build our program back and to prepare our teams to deal with CSU's super bowl mentality about this game and still blow them out. We need a series of games that CU wins convincingly enough that the CSU fans don't want to talk about them. Even though their AD will always want the game for $$ reasons we want a good chunk of their fans to be fine with it going away.

 

[aik]

When I came to CU, it was a yearly game to start the season and had been for nearly a decade. A lot about the rivalry is childish but we have three FBS schools in the state and one is a service academy. I would prefer going back to the McCartney days (I know, I know) on this one and maybe doing it 6 years out of 10 at campus stadiums. Often enough to recognize and respect the state of Colorado and get that matchup of so many players who competed in high school. That angle makes the games much more fun than the opposing fans do. But then with our off years we get more flexibility with scheduling. A Wyoming here, one of the New Mexico schools there, and some other MWC schools mixed in. It starts with getting all of our home games at home. NFL neutral sites sterilize everything, no matter how close they are.

 

[Quattro]

3 for 1 if they build a new stadium. All home if not. They have no ground to stand on in negotiations


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[hokiehead]

... he's also trying to anticipate the future.

If we believe that CU is going to be somewhere between sucking and mediocre as a football school now and into the future, then it changes a lot of the calculations. Sure, play CSU every year. Try to get AFA and WYO too, since they'd be good draws. We'd have our 12-game seasons set and make the local media happy....

I thought this part was very interesting.

 

[aik]

I'd also rather have CSU scheduled as the first game than AFA, any year. Emotions run high which is dangerous for a new team trying to gel but that academy offense isn't something I want the defense to spend any fall practice time prepping for.

 

[SpacemanSpiff]

@SpacemanSpiff I bring it up because if Rick George is doing his job like I think he is... he's also trying to anticipate the future.

If we believe that CU is going to be somewhere between sucking and mediocre as a football school now and into the future, then it changes a lot of the calculations. Sure, play CSU every year. Try to get AFA and WYO too, since they'd be good draws. We'd have our 12-game seasons set and make the local media happy. And if we're going to suck anyway, we may as well do it with Colorado players. If any in-state recruit has an FBS offer, CU should be doing all it can to get him to sign with CU. Also, probably should save a bunch of money by replacing MacIntyre with Logan once the contract expires. And it was silly to spend the money on Rick George when Mike Bohn was a favorite son who loved the parades and pageantry. Finally - drop this silly facility project. For that kind of money, CU could add a women's bowling team and build an entire school dedicated to the academic major of beekeeping.

I hope that RG is also thinking along those lines. His background suggests that he probably is. I also think that we probably won't hear much from him about it until it's a fine deal. He doesn't seem like one who floats trial balloons in the media.

 

[CarolinaBuff]

 

[FlaBuff]

There is very little pull on the AFA side to play CU. The airmen have long memories.

 

[CUFan]

Get rid of it.


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[Buffnik]

In another conversation on AB, we were talking about CU's issues within the state (specifically as it pertains to some recruits and their parents being really negative on the prep boards). hokie pointed out to me that one of my posts related to this thread, so I'm going to go ahead and paste it in:

3 things play into this:

1) Boulder is this weird "Republic of Boulder" place within Colorado that links CU with politics many in the state are very emotional about.

2) The CSU "rivalry" causes a lot of people in the state (CSU alum residents outnumber CU alum residents) to direct bitterness toward CU. Possibly the main reason this is an unhealthy annual rivalry game for the Buffs.

3) CU has sucked and, to make matters worse, went through a decade of: a) firing a HC who was a successful and popular former CO high school coach; b) hiring Hawkins, who slow-played or no-played a lot of in-state prospects while also making the CU program suck; and, c) hiring Embree who wouldn't even give the courtesy of a film review or his staff's time to most of the high school players and coaches (had to pretty much be a 5A program from the Denver metro) while making the CU program reach an epic level of suckitude.

#3 can be fixed and is being fixed. From certain comments, we can tell that in-state parents and coaches like Mike MacIntyre. It is helping to turn that around quickly.

But that alone won't get it done. The team has to not suck on the field. Hopefully that will get us there quickly. If you've got a winner in a BCS conference with a coach who is liked and gives respect to the coaches/parents/prospects, it overcomes almost all.

#2 is going to be fixed by Rick George. Maybe sooner than people think and we'll say goodbye to playing CSU every year in football [or at least goodbye to Mile High]. My suspicion is that this will cause some short-term blowback while being very good in the long-term for CU.

#1 is not something that is inside of CU's control. Although having a functional marketing and PR program within the state could go a hell of a long way toward improving this.

 

[InTheBuff]

 

[TimmyDUBs]

Does anyone know how this conversation goes between UW-WSU and Oregon-OSU fans? Same kind of tone (it does seem like Arizona-ASU, Oklahoma-OKState, UNC-NCState, etc fans all do like their rivalries, but they are all somewhat more closely matched.

Obviously it is different being in different conferences, but I am just curious.

 

[hokiehead]

....
2) The CSU "rivalry" causes a lot of people in the state (CSU alum residents outnumber CU alum residents) to direct bitterness toward CU. Possibly the main reason this is an unhealthy annual rivalry game for the Buffs.

...

#2 is going to be fixed by Rick George. Maybe sooner than people think and we'll say goodbye to playing CSU every year in football [or at least goodbye to Mile High]. My suspicion is that this will cause some short-term blowback while being very good in the long-term for CU.

thanks for bringing this over here. I'll assume that your assertions about CSU alum residents outnumbering CU alums are correct. I have two questions to raise from that:

1. Can anyone explain in objective terms why CSU fans see the rivalry as unhealthy?
2. Given CSU alum's general disinterest toward sports (frequently mentioned here, confirmed by the handful I know), why is this game a factor?

shift in focus, same topic:
3. Does the rivalry have to have this negativity associated with it? Assuming the case where AD's at both schools feel the ROI says keep the game, what could be done to make it a better series for CU? for CSU?

I do believe the most compelling argument to scrap the series is "a loss hurts worse than a win helps". I'm not 100% sure if that will be more true or less true under the new playoff criteria.

 

[Buffnik]

Does anyone know how this conversation goes between UW-WSU and Oregon-OSU fans? Same kind of tone (it does seem like Arizona-ASU, Oklahoma-OKState, UNC-NCState, etc fans all do like their rivalries, but they are all somewhat more closely matched.

Obviously it is different being in different conferences, but I am just curious.

Go to a West Virginia board (http://www.wemustignitethiscouch.com) and post that you miss the Friends of Coal rivalry and think it should be brought back & kicked up a notch by playing it at a neutral NFL site like Baltimore or Pittsburgh or at least doing it as a home/home series every year.

I'm sure they'll heap loads of praise on you if you come strong with that as a first post.

 

[MtnBuff]

There is very little pull on the AFA side to play CU. The airmen have long memories.

You are right about the long memories.

A game with CU also doesn't fit what the AFA wants to accomplish with their OOC schedule. They are a national school drawing cadets from all over the nation that also has limitations on the type of players they can recruit.

When the AFA plays OOC games they want to achieve one of two things. They either want a game that will increase their profile outside the state of Colorado so they play schools like Notre Dame and Oklahoma and Georgia Tech giving them exposure in different regions or they want an FCS or low mid-major school that won't overmatch them physically and gives them a chance to pad the schedule.

Playing CU most years does neither for them so it doesn't make sense to play it.

 

[hokiehead]

Does anyone know how this conversation goes between UW-WSU and Oregon-OSU fans? Same kind of tone (it does seem like Arizona-ASU, Oklahoma-OKState, UNC-NCState, etc fans all do like their rivalries, but they are all somewhat more closely matched.

Obviously it is different being in different conferences, but I am just curious.

I see some parallels to UNC - NC State. UNC has this thing going on with Duke, State, while being an ACC school, doesn't have the AAU membership, academic ratings or the reputation that the Tarheels have. NCSU fans hate UNC worse than any other school, and their grads outnumber UNC alums in the triangle area. It's watered down, however, by the number of Wal-Mart fans that UNC has. CU doesn't seem to have those (a few transplanted East Coasters still looking for the Boulder Wal-Mart SuperCenter).

 

[InTheBuff]

I see some parallels to UNC - NC State. UNC has this thing going on with Duke, State, while being an ACC school, doesn't have the AAU membership, academic ratings or the reputation that the Tarheels have. NCSU fans hate UNC worse than any other school, and their grads outnumber UNC alums in the triangle area. It's watered down, however, by the number of Wal-Mart fans that UNC has. CU doesn't seem to have those (a few transplanted East Coasters still looking for the Boulder Wal-Mart SuperCenter).

CU/csu series compares IMHO to LSU/Tulane....

 

[CarolinaBuff]

I never got the impression that the WVU-Marshall "rivalry" was a bitter one, if you even want to call it a rivalry. They've only played 12 times and Marshall has never won.

 

[CUBUFF80]

Hate it, have always hated it, will always hate it.

 

[hokiehead]

well now, that's not a rivalry I would've immediately drawn a comparison to. you piqued my curiosity enough to read a few wikipedia pages.

CU/csu series compares IMHO to LSU/Tulane....

 

[SuperiorBuff]

End it. No every few years either. Kill it.

 

[hokiehead]

Does anyone know how this conversation goes between UW-WSU and Oregon-OSU fans? Same kind of tone (it does seem like Arizona-ASU, Oklahoma-OKState, UNC-NCState, etc fans all do like their rivalries, but they are all somewhat more closely matched.

Obviously it is different being in different conferences, but I am just curious.

laughing to myself. [MENTION=2584]CVilleBuff[/MENTION] can confirm or correct, but I bet that before we came to the ACC, UVA fans used to see the UVA/VT rivalry the way CU fans see the CSU rivalry.

 

[Uncle Ken]

thanks for bringing this over here. I'll assume that your assertions about CSU alum residents outnumbering CU alums are correct. I have two questions to raise from that:

1. Can anyone explain in objective terms why CSU fans see the rivalry as unhealthy?
2. Given CSU alum's general disinterest toward sports (frequently mentioned here, confirmed by the handful I know), why is this game a factor?

shift in focus, same topic:
3. Does the rivalry have to have this negativity associated with it? Assuming the case where AD's at both schools feel the ROI says keep the game, what could be done to make it a better series for CU? for CSU?

I do believe the most compelling argument to scrap the series is "a loss hurts worse than a win helps". I'm not 100% sure if that will be more true or less true under the new playoff criteria.

Back in the winter of 2007/2008 CSU fans came it in droves (relative term) and explained how great this rivalry was for the state of Colorado. CU fans were united against extending the annual matchup, and even more opposed to playing it in Denver.

It's played in Denver because CSU has insufficient facilities to host it, and they would lose money. So every other year we lose the opportunity to host a home game for what amounts to charity (we don't ultimately make as much as we could). This whole thing was driven by the CSU AD who solicited support from the state legislature and governor.

Seriously, if CSU fans think that this rivalry is bad, they need to go **** themselves right now. They were part of the problem that shoved this down our throat in the first place.

I'm a season ticket holder and I will not return to a game at Sports Authority. It's toxic.

Go back to the winter of 2007/2008 and look at the archives sports articles and see what CSU fans had to say about this POS. And look at the reasonable (and prophetic) counter of the CU fans.

Kill it with fire.