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Are the Arizona schools falling?

Tractor

Tractor

Club Member
This summer, the dialog was how the pac12 south may be the second best division behind sec west. That has proven to not be even close.


The Arizona schools have combined to win 4 games this year against power 5 schools. 3 of those were to Colorado and Oregon state.

Rich rod speculation abounds, and Todd graham has many dreams, some of which likely involve jobs.

I contend there is an opportunity for us to climb out of the cellar in the very near future. We need to take advantage....
 
I don't know, asu seems to be picking up steam despite the record this year. They have a lot of things going on down there , the only problem I see with them is their fan base doesn't seem as passionate.
 
onealcd said:
I don't know, asu seems to be picking up steam despite the record this year. They have a lot of things going on down there , the only problem I see with them is their fan base doesn't seem as passionate.
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Yep, Graham is poised to sign his best class yet. Zona is a different story, especially if Rich Rod bolts.
 
There's certainly question marks. I'm a Zonie so I stay in touch with those two program's fans.

The issue that is concerning to them is "trajectory".

What is Arizona's? Hard to say because last year was a huge season, but those weren't RichRod's recruits as much as this year. Could be a 1 year blip, might be a larger trend of slipping? I'm not a RickRod believer. He rode the Spread Offense to some success but that's largely behind him, is my guess.

ASU's? There's concerns there that while he instilled marine-corp-like discipline into a mega-talented team he inherited from Dennis Erickson, has he recruited well enough and developed well enough to keep it going? There's questions, and recruiting rankings of this class may or may not answer those questions. Depends on how many Rippys, Yuris, and soon-to-be-convicts he's taking in that group. Time will tell.

The whole conference is filled with 3rd and 4th year guys (or less) so we are just now starting to see what each Head Coach is building.

I see a lot of question marks across the conference and really feel Chris Petersen is the guy building something to watch. Utah is going to slip back to mediocrity next year when they graduate almost every key player. And WSU is not going to go away. USC is a solid-coaching-hire from competing for national championships as long as that QB pipeline is solid. UCLA has talent and Rosen will lead them to a lot of wins the next two years, if they can play defense.
 
Didn't az just win the division last year? what downward trajectory?
besides, we have our own trajectory issues to deal with.
 
BuffUp said:
Didn't az just win the division last year? what downward trajectory?
besides, we have our own trajectory issues to deal with.
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What downward trajectory? They might lose their coach after this year and they are 2-5 in conference so far. They are also a basketball school so sustained football success will always be an issue.
 
Hard for me to see a bad season as a downward spiral. Sorry. Us being in a tailspin since my college age daughter was ****ting in a diaper does that.
 
BuffUp said:
Hard for me to see a bad season as a downward spiral. Sorry. Us being in a tailspin since my college age daughter was ****ting in a diaper does that.
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Because they might lose their coach. This is not a conversation about Colorado so I don't know why you continually bring it up. It is talking about the trajectory of the Arizona schools. They had a good year last year but have taken a big step back so far this year and could lose their coach who brought them back to relevancy.
 
ASU is having a bad year, but they're miles ahead of us talent-wise and the gap will grow with this recruiting class. Arizona is a different story. Maybe they'll be our fellow cellar-dweller next year.
 
I think we should beat ASU for the first time in our history before we can talk about passing them up.

As for Arizona, I find that a much more interesting story. I too agree that RichRod might be old news at this point. Staying or not, his glory days at WVU seem a long time ago now. Salomon has taken a huge step back this season, and they are losing some key players (although can Scooby get another year?).

Utah seems poised to drop back into the pack next year - it will be interesting if they can fill all those holes.
 
amazing how all these teams are graduating players and "drop back" or "start a downward trajectory" - yet we keep on keeping on.
 
buffaholic said:
ASU's? There's concerns there that while he instilled marine-corp-like discipline into a mega-talented team he inherited from Dennis Erickson
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHA oh god God that's hilarious! Other than Will Sutton and Carl Bradford no one on the ASU team Graham took was even close to top-shelf Pac talent. After signing a good-at-the-time 2008 class Erickson's recruiting was nothing special at all and got worse every season he was at ASU. The last class Erickson signed (2011) was ranked 64th per Scout.

Graham's recruiting has unquestionably been superior to Erickson's. Next season will be the first season with a roster of 100% Graham recruits and more importantly a Norvell (our OC) recruited QB.
 
azbuff said:
ASU is having a bad year, but they're miles ahead of us talent-wise and the gap will grow with this recruiting class. Arizona is a different story. Maybe they'll be our fellow cellar-dweller next year.
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This is the main problem. Our recruiting is still killing us. Can we really get that much better short of finding a miracle at QB?

PS I'm still bothered by the fact we even fell to the level of an ASU, let alone that we then proceeded to fall miles below. Now I wish we were just competitive with them. My expectations for this program just fall further every year. Ugh.
 
TomServo said:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA oh god God that's hilarious! Other than Will Sutton and Carl Bradford no one on the ASU team Graham took was even close to top-shelf Pac talent. After signing a good-at-the-time 2008 class Erickson's recruiting was nothing special at all and got worse every season he was at ASU. The last class Erickson signed (2011) was ranked 64th per Scout.

Graham's recruiting has unquestionably been superior to Erickson's. Next season will be the first season with a roster of 100% Graham recruits and more importantly a Norvell (our OC) recruited QB.
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Sorry, Tom, your Servo seems to be going open loop on ya there.

Omar Bolden, Brock Osweiler, the host of thugs from Corona Centennial HS (led by Vontaze Burfict), Marion Grice, Gerrell Robinson, Lawrence Guy. To just name a few off the top of my head.
 
buffaholic said:
Sorry, Tom, your Servo seems to be going open loop on ya there.

Omar Bolden, Brock Osweiler, the host of thugs from Corona Centennial HS (led by Vontaze Burfict), Marion Grice, Gerrell Robinson, Lawrence Guy. To just name a few off the top of my head.
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Look, I don't expect you to know all things ASU but if you're gonna make claims like "Graham inherited a mega-talented Erickson team" at least back it up with factually correct information. Of all the players you just listed, only Marion Grice played a single snap under Graham and he didn't even sign with ASU until after Graham was hired, thus he isn't an Erickson recruit.

Try again.
 
That wasn't the question. You stated that Graham's recruiting was better than Erickson's and I gave you the names of a few guys Erickson recruited that turned out pretty good. I'm not an ASU fan, but a hater. I'm certainly not going to start a research project to classify who was on the team when Graham took over and how did they turn out vs the guys he has now in their upper class years that Graham himself recruited and somehow do analysis on that.

I think most Sun Devil fans agree that Erickson's teams had lots of talent, that Graham won when he came in and got them to toe the line, but that they are not getting better and have less overall talent than a few years ago when he took over. If you disagree, feel free to put together to support that, but I got better things to do than spend hours and hours of time on a program I despise.

And I might add, your opinion doesn't count more than mine. Attacking it in your 'Tini sort of way, makes you, well, tini.
 
CUFan said:
This is the main problem. Our recruiting is still killing us. Can we really get that much better short of finding a miracle at QB?

PS I'm still bothered by the fact we even fell to the level of an ASU, let alone that we then proceeded to fall miles below. Now I wish we were just competitive with them. My expectations for this program just fall further every year. Ugh.
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In my opinion, the way for CU to pull out of the hole is through the charisma hire. X's and O's are not going to make the difference here. Competent guys who can break down film, draw up plays and organize a practice are a dime a dozen. They're at nearly every school, including CU. But it's a zero sum game. CU needs a HC with the personality and charisma to recruit a threshold volume of p5 talent from in state and especially out of state, which is hard as hell...and recruit to a specific scheme or style of football.
 
Colorado Track Fan said:
In my opinion, the way for CU to pull out of the hole is through the charisma hire. X's and O's are not going to make the difference here. Competent guys who can break down film, draw up plays and organize a practice are a dime a dozen. They're at nearly every school, including CU. But it's a zero sum game. CU needs a HC with the personality and charisma to recruit a threshold volume of p5 talent from in state and especially out of state, which is hard as hell...and recruit to a specific scheme or style of football.
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Charisma is awesome! Neuheisel.... Turner Gill.....

I'll go with zero charisma and proven winners every time.
 
buffaholic said:
That wasn't the question. You stated that Graham's recruiting was better than Erickson's and I gave you the names of a few guys Erickson recruited that turned out pretty good. I'm not an ASU fan, but a hater. I'm certainly not going to start a research project to classify who was on the team when Graham took over and how did they turn out vs the guys he has now in their upper class years that Graham himself recruited and somehow do analysis on that.

I think most Sun Devil fans agree that Erickson's teams had lots of talent, that Graham won when he came in and got them to toe the line, but that they are not getting better and have less overall talent than a few years ago when he took over. If you disagree, feel free to put together to support that, but I got better things to do than spend hours and hours of time on a program I despise.

And I might add, your opinion doesn't count more than mine. Attacking it in your 'Tini sort of way, makes you, well, tini.
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Your claim was that Graham inherited a "mega-talented" team from Erickson. My claim is that he most certainly did not. Yes, Erickson did recruit some very talented players (mostly from his 2008 and 2009 signing classes) but the vast bulk of those players were gone prior to Graham taking over as coach. Here is the last 4 of ASU's recruiting rankings per scout under Erickson:

2008: 17th (three of the eight 4* players in this class never played a single snap for ASU, fwiw while only 3 total from the entire class ever played for Graham at all)
2009: 36th
2010: 26th (15 members of this class never played a single snap for Graham either, including two of the four 4* recruits and eleven of the eighteen 3* recruits)
2011: 64th (Colorado was 62nd this same class, FWIW)

Then under Graham:

2012: 43rd
2013: 30th
2014: 17th

Also, you will be VERY hard pressed to find many ASU fans who would think our 2012 team (Graham's first) would be more talented than this current one. Biggest difference between 2012 as this year is 2012 had a lot of seniors and juniors and JC players in thw two-deep vs this season which has a lot more of the two-deep compromised of freshman and sophomores, redshirt or otherwise). Many ASU fans would also argue our OC is squandering Berco's talent by trying to turn him into a zone-read running QB like Taylor Kelly instead of using him like the strong-armed pocket passer he is, and that has cost us this year.
 
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You'd be hard pressed to find posters around here who care about the distinction....shouldn't you be posting on Wazzu's, or whoever ASU plays this week, board?
 
buffaholic said:
Charisma is awesome! Neuheisel.... Turner Gill.....

I'll go with zero charisma and proven winners every time.
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Did Turner Gill recruit? No idea. Is he a charismatic recruiter?

I'd take Skippy at CU all day over what CU has had since GB. Skippy would win the state and pull players from CA. Does he win a national championship at CU? Unlikely, but but maybe we talk about winning more than one conference game per season before we start worrying about that.

Show me a proven winner and I'll show you a recruiter.
 
Colorado Track Fan said:
Did Turner Gill recruit? No idea. Is he a charismatic recruiter?

I'd take Skippy at CU all day over what CU has had since GB. Skippy would win the state and pull players from CA. Does he win a national championship at CU? Unlikely, but but maybe we talk about winning more than one conference game per season before we start worrying about that.

Show me a proven winner and I'll show you a recruiter.
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Wow. Ok. Rick Neuheisel coached 3 teams (Colorado, UW, UCLA) and they all got worse under his leadership. I happen to believe he was the beginning of the fall here.
Yes he could recruit, but he made recruiting mistakes. Name the QBs he left behind at CU! Nobody can, because the answer is that he didn't leave anyone behind. That's why he left.

Turner Gill was all charisma, no cattle. KU thought they hit on a homerun with him because he was a charismatic guy. He was the anti-Mangino who basically pissed everyone off. And won, won, won and won.

Embree was hired precisely because he was a Buff that had CHARISMA!

Do the research. The graveyard of coaching is full of guys with charisma who couldn't coach a lick. I've not found one successful head coach who took over a perennial loser and turned them into a winner, who was considered a high-charisma / great recruiter type. They may exist, but they are in the minority. Most of the guys who've done this are blue collar football guys. And it's faster if they follow a great recruiter who couldn't coach a lick!

Yes, winners are great recruiters but which came first? Was Urban Meyer a great recruiter at Bowling Green and Utah? He built winners before his reputation was made.
Same with most of the great coaches. Win, and the recruits will follow.

So hire a famous winner to rebuild our program? Yes please! No brainer! Urban Meyer would be a good choice!
Too cheap for that?
Then you better find a guy who has shown he can win at a lower level and build something.
 
buffaholic said:
Wow. Ok. Rick Neuheisel coached 3 teams (Colorado, UW, UCLA) and they all got worse under his leadership. I happen to believe he was the beginning of the fall here.
Yes he could recruit, but he made recruiting mistakes. Name the QBs he left behind at CU! Nobody can, because the answer is that he didn't leave anyone behind. That's why he left.

Turner Gill was all charisma, no cattle. KU thought they hit on a homerun with him because he was a charismatic guy. He was the anti-Mangino who basically pissed everyone off. And won, won, won and won.

Embree was hired precisely because he was a Buff that had CHARISMA!

Do the research. The graveyard of coaching is full of guys with charisma who couldn't coach a lick. I've not found one successful head coach who took over a perennial loser and turned them into a winner, who was considered a high-charisma / great recruiter type. They may exist, but they are in the minority. Most of the guys who've done this are blue collar football guys. And it's faster if they follow a great recruiter who couldn't coach a lick!

Yes, winners are great recruiters but which came first? Was Urban Meyer a great recruiter at Bowling Green and Utah? He built winners before his reputation was made.
Same with most of the great coaches. Win, and the recruits will follow.

So hire a famous winner to rebuild our program? Yes please! No brainer! Urban Meyer would be a good choice!
Too cheap for that?
Then you better find a guy who has shown he can win at a lower level and build something.
Click to expand...

Compare Skippy's record an any school to what CU has been in the past five or so years. I didn't say i'd take Skippy over Meyer or Saban. Let me know when Meyer or Saban is signing up at CU.

Mangino was a fat pig, but he had charisma in football terms. I'm not talking about lady killer or political charisma. Did Gill in fact recruit well? I don't know the answer to that question.

Win a lower levels like the Hawlk? Build/turnaround a program like MM at SJSU? How's that working out? You build a p5 program with PLAYERS.
 
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