ASU trying to block a D2 school from moving up?

[NashBuff]

Larry Scott is going to bat for the Pac-12 on ASU's behalf to try to block GCU's D1 move: http://www.cbssports...e-to-division-i

Y! article on this sad saga: http://sports.yahoo....-153010564.html

GCU CEO statement: http://news.gcu.edu/...ac-12-concerns/

Are you kidding me? ASU trying to block a D2 school from moving to the WAC (yes it's now a basketball only conference) due to GCU being a for profit school?

 

[BuffAlum2007]

Adams transferred to GCU and they are coached by Thunder Dan Majerle...interesting saga they have ahead of them...

 

[sackman]

Well, I can kind of see the logic. Scott points out that the genie can't be put back in the bottle. You don't want to be out in a spot where you're competing against Phoenix University in sports. They, as a for-profit can simply go out and sell stock to finance a bunch of facilities. It is an uneven playing field.


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[NashBuff]

Well, I can kind of see the logic. Scott points out that the genie can't be put back in the bottle. You don't want to be out in a spot where you're competing against Phoenix University in sports. They, as a for-profit can simply go out and sell stock to finance a bunch of facilities. It is an uneven playing field.


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Is that where college sports could be headed? Some states require that the athletic departments be run as a seperate business and perhaps those businesses could sell stock. Larry Scott would have a good point in this case but GCU moved to for profit in 2004 and that was nearly ten years ago. The time to address that issue was when that actually happened. Where was the outrage from other D2 schools?

 

[SuperiorBuff]

Well, I can kind of see the logic. Scott points out that the genie can't be put back in the bottle. You don't want to be out in a spot where you're competing against Phoenix University in sports. They, as a for-profit can simply go out and sell stock to finance a bunch of facilities. It is an uneven playing field.


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Universities would then only have to outsource the management of the athletic facilities.

 

[sackman]

The idea that we are on an even playing field now is equally ludicrous, I admit.




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[NashBuff]

We already have BYU and other schools like that. Could the NCAA have rules that would prevent the outsourcing of the athletic department?

 

[NashBuff]

http://news.gcu.edu/2013/07/gcu-sta...or-grand-canyon-university-students-families/

Another statement from GCU's President. I went to a private school in Washington DC for twice the cost of GCU back in the early 2000s. Given that the DC area schools including Maryland had a program where you could go to another DC area school to take a class or two at a different school, that was one heck of a deal. I didn't take advantage of that but the fact is that you can get a quality education for less than a big name school such as a BCS school.

If this was really serious, I think Arizona would have raised the issue as well but it appears to be just ASU trying to protect its turf.

 

[Junction]

Well, I can kind of see the logic. Scott points out that the genie can't be put back in the bottle. You don't want to be out in a spot where you're competing against Phoenix University in sports. They, as a for-profit can simply go out and sell stock to finance a bunch of facilities. It is an uneven playing field.


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An interesting argument if you're trying to keep them out of the NCAA. They've been members of the NCAA for a decade. What ASsU is arguing is that they're ok with D-II schools being on an uneven playing field, but are opposed if D-1 schools are put in that position...

 

[sackman]

An interesting argument if you're trying to keep them out of the NCAA. They've been members of the NCAA for a decade. What ASsU is arguing is that they're ok with D-II schools being on an uneven playing field, but are opposed if D-1 schools are put in that position...

A D-II school isn't going to pour crazy money into it's athletic programs, though.

Honestly, I'm not sure where I come down on this issue. I can see both sides. It seems petty for ASU and the P12 to be doing this, but I see their logic.

 

[Buffnik]

And if I'm a "for profit" school, I'm claiming that while I may be able to raise money through a stock or bond offering I am at a huge competitive disadvantage in that I can't raise money through soliciting tax deductible donations and I can't retain positive university balances without them being taxed.

 

[Hoops Fan]

And if I'm a "for profit" school, I'm claiming that while I may be able to raise money through a stock or bond offering I am at a huge competitive disadvantage in that I can't raise money through soliciting tax deductible donations and I can't retain positive university balances without them being taxed.

... Also, they cannot tap the public treasury for taxpayer funds.

 

[prf]

Well, I can kind of see the logic. Scott points out that the genie can't be put back in the bottle. You don't want to be out in a spot where you're competing against Phoenix University in sports. They, as a for-profit can simply go out and sell stock to finance a bunch of facilities. It is an uneven playing field.


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Of course, the flip side of this is why, as an investor, I'd want to buy stock in such an institution. I know it's not a direct apples to apples comparison, but if I have the choice between the University of Phoenix and Grand Canyon, I'd invest in the business without a money sucking athletic department that eats into my profit margin. Given how few ADs operate in the black, how long would it take for Grand Canyon to add to the bottom line?

Add this to the fact that Grand Canyon's alumni base is unlikely to develop generations of fans the way that an Alabama or Texas (or CU) is, based on the student base from which you're drawing, and I- as an investor- would see this as a poor business move.

 

[MtnBuff]

Arguing about the "for profit" aspect of this is ridiculous. Certainly GCU can go out and sell some stock to finance athletics, they have to justify it to the stockholders to do so.

How about the state schools in places where college sports is king? They can't sell stock but they can tap into public funds and the level of quantitative justification is much lower. Places like Nebraska, West Virginia, Georgia (heck, most of the SEC,) have access to way more cash than GCU or the University of Phoenix would ever put into athletics.

Then we go to the "private" schools. I'm Catholic and know people in the church who live and die Notre Dame. The idea of the church itself having stacks of case is a myth but there are plenty of wealthy individuals who have no connection at all with Catholic schools other than they are Catholic who would (and do) gladly put up huge chunks of money.

ASU in this case makes little sense other than they may be afraid of CGU creating a Gonzaga like BB program that siphons off fan support in an area where large parts of the population are from elsewhere and don't have the locked in loyalty. This means they would actually have to act like a business and compete for fan dollars, scary for those with a government mentality.

 

[NashBuff]

A D-II school isn't going to pour crazy money into it's athletic programs, though.

Honestly, I'm not sure where I come down on this issue. I can see both sides. It seems petty for ASU and the P12 to be doing this, but I see their logic.

Being D2 doesn't mean you will spend not crazy money on athletics. It just comes down to the number of scholarships provided and sports sponsored. Same thing with being a FBS and a FCS school. To be a FBS school, you must sponsor at least 16 sports while FCS requires like 12 or 14 sports.

And speaking of those land grant schools, ASU is not the land grant school for Arizona but that land grant school is located in Tucson and goes by the nickname "Wildcats".

 

[NashBuff]

And if I'm a "for profit" school, I'm claiming that while I may be able to raise money through a stock or bond offering I am at a huge competitive disadvantage in that I can't raise money through soliciting tax deductible donations and I can't retain positive university balances without them being taxed.

... Also, they cannot tap the public treasury for taxpayer funds.

Since GCU is a religious school, they can't tap into public funds anyway but when you make chairtiable contributions to churches such as tithes & offerings, it is tax deductible. BYU does not use money from tithes & offerings towards their athletic programs so the ahtlethic programs at BYU have to find other revenue streams. I wonder if GCU operates the same way in this case although they are for profit.

 

[dply]

If you think the SEC is shady, just wait until these schools get involved. I say this as a former employee of the University of Phoenix. Their practices are disgusting. I can't speak for GCU but Devry, Westwood, Redstone, and University of Phoenix all share the same ethics.

 

[NashBuff]

If you think the SEC is shady, just wait until these schools get involved. I say this as a former employee of the University of Phoenix. Their practices are disgusting. I can't speak for GCU but Devry, Westwood, Redstone, and University of Phoenix all share the same ethics.

What kind of ethics? Just wondering.

 

[dply]

What kind of ethics? Just wondering.

It's a little hard to discuss in this format but I'll cliff notes it. They basically lie and do shady things to entice people to come to their school. Once enrolled they don't give a **** about you because they have your money. They don't even care about academic honesty.

The only HS transcripts I ever saw while working there were the students who had attended a real college and thought they needed to be sent in. There is no doubt in my mind that some students have graduated UoP without a high school diploma or GED. UoP didn't care if they had one they just wanted the student's money.

I went from enrollment to financial aid in my three years working there. I noticed the things the enrollment counselors were telling the students were flat out lies but I didn't know we were lying until I got to the financial aid side of the fence.

That was the only job I was ever fired from and I'm proud of it. I was fired because a student called me in tears because she couldn't afford it. She was sold on the value of a college degree though so she really wanted my help. I tried my best but the student and I came to the conclusion that the best decision for her was to go to FRCC for a year at $33 per credit hour and then come back to finish her bachelor's. Problem was the phone call was being recorded. I was called into my manager's office the next week where we listened to the phone call. then the Associate director came in and fired me. They don't give a damn about the students.

 

[NashBuff]

It's a little hard to discuss in this format but I'll cliff notes it. They basically lie and do shady things to entice people to come to their school. Once enrolled they don't give a **** about you because they have your money. They don't even care about academic honesty.

The only HS transcripts I ever saw while working there were the students who had attended a real college and thought they needed to be sent in. There is no doubt in my mind that some students have graduated UoP without a high school diploma or GED. UoP didn't care if they had one they just wanted the student's money.

I went from enrollment to financial aid in my three years working there. I noticed the things the enrollment counselors were telling the students were flat out lies but I didn't know we were lying until I got to the financial aid side of the fence.

That was the only job I was ever fired from and I'm proud of it. I was fired because a student called me in tears because she couldn't afford it. She was sold on the value of a college degree though so she really wanted my help. I tried my best but the student and I came to the conclusion that the best decision for her was to go to FRCC for a year at $33 per credit hour and then come back to finish her bachelor's. Problem was the phone call was being recorded. I was called into my manager's office the next week where we listened to the phone call. then the Associate director came in and fired me. They don't give a damn about the students.

Kudos to you for being honest...I had to put up with crap fincincal aid at school and I believe that is the way everyone goes through while in college.

But in this case, it's easy for the school to try to convince the student that they are not just a number. A lot of schools might not be for profit but they still have to make money in order to stay relevant on the college scene one way or the other.

And when it comes to a professional job, I'm not sure what factor a high school diploma plays if a college degree has been earned. A similiar argument could be made for NFL players coming out of college.

I think what needs to be looked at is that a college could have 40k online students and only 8k actual students who show up in person. That would mean more money per actual student to spend on athletics. Does that give GCU an unfair advantage? The APR should ensure that GCU students actually attend classes plus with emerging technology such as fingerprint readers should reduce the ability for academic fraud when it comes to online classes.