Big East Expansion?

[ScottyBuff]

Lots of articles/headlines coming out of the Big East media day:

Big East Conference mulls getting even bigger as it prepares to negotiate a critical TV deal

Marinatto said he will only consider adding a school that brings “value.” “There is no magic number for us,” he said. “We want quality. We’re a nontraditional conference. We find ways to make things work. We keep defying the odds.

Big East Media Day

The other group of schools the Big East is keeping an eye on is the trio of Big 12 schools -Missouri, Kansas and Kansas State - which could be left out in the cold if the conference falls apart ...(later)...But the larger point is the 20-team basketball league, which Steve Pederson told me he and the football schools could live with because they already have 17.

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[h=1]Next Big East TV Contract Most Important Ever

Marinatto said he'd want any expansion in place by Sept. 1, 2012, because the TV negotiations go hand-in-hand. What he wouldn't provide is any insight on potential schools. There is no shortage of coaches in favor of a 12-team league with a championship game. "We're playing with all the models," said Marinatto, referring to both expansion and television. "There is no magic number for us. We want quality. We're a non-traditional conference. We find ways to make things work. We keep defying the odds.

[/h]

 

[CVilleBuff]

They'd like to expand to get to that even 20/12 layout, but they can't be the ones to pull the trigger. Only gonna happen if the SEC or someone makes a move first that opens up Mizzou, KU and KSU. Doesn't sound pretty, but gives those schools a solid monstrosity of a bball league and brings football to 12 and keeps them in a BCS-conf (How they'd do the divisons is a mystery, as a 'West' divison seems like it would be much stronger in football with TCU and Mizzou). In this scenario Iowa State really would end up in the MWC or MAC. Ouch.

 

[ScottyBuff]

If they wait for the SEC to go after Mizzou they could miss a key piece of their "western expansion" strategy.

I think they are only waiting for Comcast/NBC to put some major coin on the table to help entice Missouri/Kansas/Kansas State to ditch the Texas-centric and dying Big 12.

Currently those schools are looking at getting something like $14-19 million per year once the new contracts kick in for the Big 12; so the bar is set pretty high for the Big East.

In the conference's past contract they barely received $17 million for football rights per year. For the whole conference!

 

[CarolinaBuff]

Much of the Big East expansion talk is around teams like Villanova, UCF, Army, and Navy, but don't count out Temple. That would give the conference the footprint into Philly if Nova doesn't step forward.

http://philly.sbnation.com/temple-owls/2011/7/1/2253768/temple-football-joining-the-big-east-in-2012
[URL]http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/blog/dr_saturday/post/For-now-Temple-s-Big-East-dreams-yield-to-immed?urn=ncaaf-wp3586[/URL]

 

[CVilleBuff]

Much of the Big East expansion talk is around teams like Villanova, UCF, Army, and Navy, but don't count out Temple. That would give the conference the footprint into Philly if Nova doesn't step forward.

http://philly.sbnation.com/temple-owls/2011/7/1/2253768/temple-football-joining-the-big-east-in-2012
http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/footba...g-East-dreams-yield-to-immed?urn=ncaaf-wp3586

I'd heard about Villanova potentially making the jump to FBS. It'd be something else for the Big East to invite Temple back after the others members voted to kick them out in 2004. However, I imagine Temple would probably say yes. I assume they'll wait and see if MU, KU and KSU are feasible and if not, pursue these other options.

 

[CarolinaBuff]

I'd heard about Villanova potentially making the jump to FBS. It'd be something else for the Big East to invite Temple back after the others members voted to kick them out in 2004. However, I imagine Temple would probably say yes. I assume they'll wait and see if MU, KU and KSU are feasible and if not, pursue these other options.

It sounds like they want to get one of the Philly schools and Nova is the preference because of their b-ball but they need to commit to their stadium expansion, which they still haven't done.

 

[CVilleBuff]

It sounds like they want to get one of the Philly schools and Nova is the preference because of their b-ball but they need to commit to their stadium expansion, which they still haven't done.

Nova is a Big East member in basketball already, so it'd be easier for them to add Nova and not use up another spot in adding a new basketball team (they're already at 17 in bball, you figure they can't possibly go beyond 20). On the flipside, Temple is in the A-10 in hoops, but their football team was vastly improved by Al Golden after they were kicked out in '04. He even got the Owls to a bowl game last year before moving on to Miami. Right now Temple is competing in the MAC in football.

 

[CarolinaBuff]

Nova is a Big East member in basketball already, so it'd be easier for them to add Nova and not use up another spot in adding a new basketball team (they're already at 17 in bball, you figure they can't possibly go beyond 20). On the flipside, Temple is in the A-10 in hoops, but their football team was vastly improved by Al Golden after they were kicked out in '04. He even got the Owls to a bowl game last year before moving on to Miami. Right now Temple is competing in the MAC in football.

Exactly, which is why the Big East would like to see Nova make a commitment to stadium expansion and making the move up to FBS.

 

[CVilleBuff]

Exactly, which is why the Big East would like to see Nova make a commitment to stadium expansion and making the move up to FBS.

Yeah, that 12,500 capacity stadium isn't gonna cut it. Temple's playing in Lincoln Financial these days, another big upgrade from when they were kicked out -- they were playing in the Vet (place had rats the size of dogs).

Here's a link I was looking at (from April) Looks like 'Nova is all for making the necessary expansion to 30k, but there are some Big East football schools that are against it (and some for). I'd say they're probably a better long term bet than Temple

http://www.thenovablog.com/2011/4/11/2103596/villanovas-big-east-football-vote-delayed

 

[PhillyBuff]

Yeah, that 12,500 capacity stadium isn't gonna cut it. Temple's playing in Lincoln Financial these days, another big upgrade from when they were kicked out -- they were playing in the Vet (place had rats the size of dogs).

Here's a link I was looking at (from April) Looks like 'Nova is all for making the necessary expansion to 30k, but there are some Big East football schools that are against it (and some for). I'd say they're probably a better long term bet than Temple

http://www.thenovablog.com/2011/4/11/2103596/villanovas-big-east-football-vote-delayed

and those fans at the vet.... geez, they throw snowballs at Santa! Can't have a D1 school there!

 

[ScottyBuff]

I honestly think that UMass is a much better choice for the Big East over 'Nova, Temple, or Army/Navy if they are looking at NE schools in big media markets.

The Big East lost the Boston market when BC took the heart out of the conference 7 years ago by going to the ACC. UMass is a state flagship school with 26,00 students and is a making the move to FBS already. They will be playing in Gillette Stadium while they get their on-campus stadium situation figured out (first expansion stage to 25k).

Villanova can't even fill their tiny stadium as it is (8,500 attendance in an 11,000 stadium).

I don't think the Big East will do themselves any favors in their next TV negotiations by inviting small private schools that are "lost" in major media markets. TCU is a much harder act to repeat than UConn and USF were, and TCU already had a storied football past to build upon.

UMass certainly has some hurdles to overcome, but their potential is akin to UConn and South Florida experienced over the last 10 or so years. Joining the Big East, however, would help them tap into a much bigger slice of the pie from fan interest than slogging through the MAC for the next decade. The Big East would gain by having the market presence in Massachusetts directly. Football rivalry would be "instantaneous" with UConn and hoops also with Providence. Their 13,000 average attendance for football in 2010 (while in FCS) is far better than Villanova's 8,500 and that tells a better story than anything else. With a good conference slate of games, I bet that they would draw close to 30k on average at Gillette and more if a BC game could be worked out.

Personally, I still think that another great non-BCS addition would be East Carolina as well. Sure they aren't the "big dog" in that state, but it really is a recruiting hotspot to be in North Carolina and the conference has too big of a geographic "gap" from the NE schools to South Florida, and missing the middle atlantic region is a shame for them after V-Tech left. Having a school in the state of North Carolina would also add access to a large number of TV eyeballs and with 50,000 fans packing the stadium for football games they would place just behind the "Big 3" of West Virginia, Louisville, and Pitt in that important stat. If their plan's continue they will have a 62k capacity stadium in the future.

For a third "non-BCS" expansion target, I would go after Houston. Gigantic city, natural rival/travel partner for TCU, and solid historical programs.

So that would be my "under-the-radar" expansion for the Big East if the MU-KU-KState option doesn't materialize.

Big North Division
West Virginia
Pittsburgh
Rutgers
Syracuse
Connecticut
Massachusetts

Big South Division
Louisville
Cincinnati
South Florida
East Carolina
Texas Christian
Houston

But I really would like to see the "F--- The Big 12" option of luring MU-KU-KState away from the grasp of the Longhorns.

 

[CarolinaBuff]

I wouldn't be on UMass being a big success at the gate with their move to FBS. Here's the problem with the Boston-area market - they don't give rip about college football. BC is a terrible fit for the ACC and I'm surprised that the Big East hasn't gone back after them.

 

[CVilleBuff]

I wouldn't be on UMass being a big success at the gate with their move to FBS. Here's the problem with the Boston-area market - they don't give rip about college football. BC is a terrible fit for the ACC and I'm surprised that the Big East hasn't gone back after them.

Still shaking my head about that move. They draw 35k on a good day. ACC should have been more patient about that 12th member. BC is the best argument in debunking the whole "markets" obsession. Perhaps UMass will eventually be able to draw more as their student body is so much bigger, but as you say, college football is more irrelevant in New England than anywhere else in the country. UConn, a school very similar in size/culture to UMass, couldn't even get 40k during last year's Big East Championship/Fiesta Bowl run..

Agree with ScottyBuff about ECU, was puzzled why the Big East chose Cincy over ECU during the last expansion, but the answer is probably basketball (and markets​). ECU has a great following and is always tough, Cincy had a nice year or two, but they can't compare overall to ECU in football.

 

[ScottyBuff]

I wouldn't be on UMass being a big success at the gate with their move to FBS. Here's the problem with the Boston-area market - they don't give rip about college football. BC is a terrible fit for the ACC and I'm surprised that the Big East hasn't gone back after them.

Does the Philly market care about Villanova either?

BC - Boston
Miami - Miami
Northwestern - Chicago
Stanford - San Francisco
Vanderbilt - Nashville

There aren't too many private schools in "big markets" that really are consistent winners in attendance. All of them are bandwagon college markets, with the Hurricanes the greatest example of the fickleness of their fans. Even USC doesn't sell out the coliseum, or even exceed 85% attendance, unless they play a big opponent.

Large state-flagship schools located in moderately sized markets within a 2 hour drive of major metropolitan cities are a recipe for success, however.

 

[PhillyBuff]

Does the Philly market care about Villanova either?

BC - Boston
Miami - Miami
Northwestern - Chicago
Stanford - San Francisco
Vanderbilt - Nashville

There aren't too many private schools in "big markets" that really are consistent winners in attendance. All of them are bandwagon college markets, with the Hurricanes the greatest example of the fickleness of their fans. Even USC doesn't sell out the coliseum, or even exceed 85% attendance, unless they play a big opponent.

Large state-flagship schools located in moderately sized markets within a 2 hour drive of major metropolitan cities are a recipe for success, however.

No, Philadelphia does not care about Villanova Football. They care about Big 5 hoops......

Temple does NOT draw well.

The largest crowd to watch a college football game in Philadelphia that was NOT an Army Navy game was when Penn State played Temple.... The 72k sellout was 80% Penn State fans. Temple draws 20k to their games...

This is a pro-football town and the college fanatics will drive to Penn State to see that farce of a team play.....

 

[CarolinaBuff]

Does the Philly market care about Villanova either?

BC - Boston
Miami - Miami
Northwestern - Chicago
Stanford - San Francisco
Vanderbilt - Nashville

There aren't too many private schools in "big markets" that really are consistent winners in attendance. All of them are bandwagon college markets, with the Hurricanes the greatest example of the fickleness of their fans. Even USC doesn't sell out the coliseum, or even exceed 85% attendance, unless they play a big opponent.

Large state-flagship schools located in moderately sized markets within a 2 hour drive of major metropolitan cities are a recipe for success, however.

Fair point about Nova (or Temple for that matter). I think what the Big East is trying to do here is fit a square peg into a round hole by attempting to turn Philly into a BCS football market and pull some of that attention and draw away from PSU but that simply won't happen. It's quite apparent that PA football fans are dominated by PSU and pro football and that's certainly not going to change.

I also agree about ECU, they draw very well and easily outdraw both Duke and Wake, although Wake has the smallest stadium among BCS schools. ECU also has a big presence in Charlotte even though it's 4 hours away. They played a game in Charlotte a few years ago against VT and this year they're playing SCarolina there.

 

[Buffnik]

Big East's dream for expansion is to get Maryland and pull Boston College back, but it will never happen.

 

[Mick Ronson]

Temple already got kicked out of the BE once, no?

Nashville is a huge Vol town. very few of the good citizens of Nashville have any personal connection to Vandy at all. there's some bandwagon stuff in the media during hoops season but i don't think anyone really cares around town. it's one thing to be a private ignored in a larger market....but a private dwarfed by a conference "rival" in your market....is a sad state of affairs.

i met a couple ECU fans at the US Open and those guys were serious.

 

[CVilleBuff]

Temple already got kicked out of the BE once, no?

Nashville is a huge Vol town. very few of the good citizens of Nashville have any personal connection to Vandy at all. there's some bandwagon stuff in the media during hoops season but i don't think anyone really cares around town. it's one thing to be a private ignored in a larger market....but a private dwarfed by a conference "rival" in your market....is a sad state of affairs.

i met a couple ECU fans at the US Open and those guys were serious.

They were a football only member and were voted out by the other members, leaving in 2004. Of course, they're more attractive now that they play in Lincoln Financial (who cares if the upper deck is usually closed off?) and got to a bowl game last year.

ECU loves their football. They have a nice schedule this year with South Carolina in Charlotte, and Virginia Tech and North Carolina coming to Greenville. The fact they can draw almost 50k in C-USA says a lot for them...they're way ahead of Dook and Wake in the attendance and practically level with NCSU and UNC

 

[ScottyBuff]

You have to figure that the Big East's TV partners are already "OK" with having Pitt in the state of Pennsylvania as a better draw for TV ratings and carriage in Philadelphia than Temple/Nova could provide incrementally.

Adding a presence in addition highly populated states is the best strategy for them from a TV perspective, from a fan perspective, and from a recruiting perspective.

East Carolina reminds me a lot of V-Tech in the late 80's early 90's. A small community with a HUGE football appetite that somehow transcends a whole region into a "sum-is-greater-than-the-parts" type team. They did great to expand their stadium, and I think it is entirely feasible that they can fill a 62k stadium as planned, especially if they get into the Big East. Louisville, Cincy, and South Florida were not even close to the attendance numbers the Pirates have put up, when those schools moved from C-USA to B-East. Louisville was just cresting over 40k on average at that time (their near "BCS Buster" year).

I like ECU far better than UCF as the best Big East "non-BCS" expansion option.

In a true business sense, they would be more "valuable" than Kansas State, if the conference already could entice Kansas/Missouri.

Houston likewise.