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Defense: Zone vs Man

Goose

Hoops Moderator
Club Member
Junta Member
Taking this from the Wazzu game thread because it's something I've been thinking about for a while and wanted to spin it off.

I think it was MacLean in the UCLA game, who was commenting that AAU ball does nothing to teach kids how to do the team part (weak side help, rotation, switching on screens, etc.) of playing man to man, and Tad might have finally acquiesced to the reality that you can't play purely m2m with such a young roster.

This is proof that even a broken clock is right twice a day - so props to MacLean for finally finding that time. The hardest thing in sports isn't hitting a baseball, it's getting a young team to play TEAM man to man defense. This is the main reason that I think Coach Calipari at Kentucky is one of the best coaches in the game - and criminally underrated. Yes, the man can recruit, but that's all you hear about. You never hear about the fact that he routinely gets one and done's who know their key to getting drafted is to score to play lockdown D. In his time at Kentucky, the worst D he's ever had by AdjD on KenPom is 88th in the nation (98.1 points per 100 possessions) - and that was the year they made the NIT because Nerlens Noel was hurt. Over that time, he's averaged a ranking of 24th in the nation (it goes up to 15th if you take out the Noel year) and he's been top ten 4 out of the 8 years. I think AAU basketball gets a bit of a bum rap, and it's not the purely evil entity that everyone makes it out to be, but they don't teach D to the level that they should there. And in HS, most of the time the kids aren't forced to play quality team defense. So freshmen come in behind the 8 ball.

That's where zone is helpful, and why I think we've seen so much success from it this year. It's easier to coach and put into place and be passable than man to man is. Now that said, I honestly believe that the ceiling for man to man is so much higher that it makes sense to use if you can get the team to buy in. In fact, looking over the top 20 defenses according to KenPom, only 2 (Syracuse and North Carolina) are "mostly zone" and 4 are "inconclusive". The rest are all "mostly man". In fact, the highest zone D in the nation is Syracuse - a team that has been doing zone D for so long it's ingrained in their blood and probably leading to their success - and they're 11th in the nation.

Other than "pop & play", the big benefit to zone is that it can help hide a shortened bench. You don't exert as much effort on D in zone vs man to man (or a pressing man to man, which we've seen Tad bust out occasionally in the last few seasons) so you can save some guys. Or if you have a defensive liability, it's a convenient way to hide them. So it's not like zone defense doesn't have it's positives. And we're showing it this year as it single handedly turned our season around. But I don't think it's the answer, and I hope Tad is on the same page as me.

The big negatives with zone defense is as Pachoops has said - it's a "calculated risk". It can work - especially when it's a rarity because teams don't see it as much - but it also opens you up to some potentially serious flaws. The big thing in advanced stats is the "four factors" - eFG%, Turnover %, Offensive Rebound % and FTA/FGA. Basically if you can limit the amount of three pointers you give up (eFG%), don't turn the ball over, keep your opponents off of the boards and get to the line a lot, you're going to win a lot more than you lose. Zone defense seriously hampers you to two of those - eFG% and offensive rebound %. Because the D isn't extended as far, it opens you up to outside shooters. I think that's a reason that we didn't see it as much last night vs other games (note: I missed a portion of the second half because I was chasing my almost 2 year old around). As for offensive rebounds, the big benefit to man vs man is that you're on a guy so blocking out just involves turning your ass around and ramming into them. On zone you have to locate and it tends to lead to scrambling and/or missed opportunities.

With a team as young as ours, I feel like this next off-season should be dedicated to nothing but defensive principles (cue the "Tad sucks at offense" crowd's angrily jeering). I personally feel that with defenders like Bey and DeLeon on the roster, that gives us a solid start for building a damn good defensive team. Add in a solid defender like Namon and guys with incredible potential like Walton and Lazar and I feel like going zone would be like buying a Ferrari and keeping it in first gear the entire time.

This is also where I note that I, personally, am a big believer in man to man defense over zone. This year has opened my eyes a touch to times where it's worthwhile to run with, but I feel like with the athletes that we're assembling, and Tad's preferred player type (long arms who can switch and guard numerous positions) this zone defense should be a one year stop gap and for use in situations in which we want to throw opponents off guard.
 
Nice breakdown goose. I think the part where you identified that man to man has a higher ceiling is the best part of the whole thing.

But how come you didn't mention Siewart in your plans for next year? Joking aside, one thing being passable at zone does is let our second unit come out there with guys who aren't great at MtM and still play OK D.
 
Nice breakdown goose. I think the part where you identified that man to man has a higher ceiling is the best part of the whole thing.

But how come you didn't mention Siewart in your plans for next year? Joking aside, one thing being passable at zone does is let our second unit come out there with guys who aren't great at MtM and still play OK D.

I'm higher than Siewart on most. Which is why I won't discuss his defense.
 
@Goose is on fire today.

My take: we should take up an Allbuffs collection to hire a nanny for him so that he has time to post more of this type of stuff.

Nah, I like the kid. Raise enough to let me not have to work.

And seriously, I know there are some strong zone defense posters on this board - I want your feedback. As I mentioned, I'm biased when it comes to man to man vs zone, so I could be missing things. I'm not Eusctacy - I can admit when I'm wrong.

Sometimes...
 
Nah, I like the kid. Raise enough to let me not have to work.

And seriously, I know there are some strong zone defense posters on this board - I want your feedback. As I mentioned, I'm biased when it comes to man to man vs zone, so I could be missing things. I'm not Eusctacy - I can admit when I'm wrong.

Sometimes...
If you can guard via man, it's preferable and should be used most of the time. I really don't think that's debatable.

A couple things I'd say on zone:

1. I prefer zone for most presses. Trap and create turnovers with a rim protector behind. There's a place for a man press to speed things up and raise intensity of your own team, but it's not going to lead to making a run like a zone press will.

2. I believe that when you have guards who rebound well that a zone overcomes a lot of its inherent issues for defensive rebounding. Especially when they're quick jumpers who can angle through the muck. Buffs seem to have more of a team that rebounds well via athleticism this year. Without Tory, we don't have a big hoss to body people and control that defensive glass. Instead, it's guys like Bey, King and Namon who aren't winning a lot of shoving matches in the paint.
 
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Yeah, as stated, to me zone is about hiding weaknesses on defense or personnel. However, if you do have a lengthy team (literally, in terms of height), zone could be the better way to go on defense (ala 'Cuse). I personally hate zone, because even though theoretically it's easier to teach, I always thought someone would **** it up when trying to execute it. Granted I never played it while being coached - all rec league games, but there's always someone (and probably me sometimes) that would **** up by cheating to someone they shouldn't. And then the open lanes for offensive rebounding..... ... And, if you have a good offensive team, a zone really "should" be easy to beat imo. Give me a great passing big that can hit mid-range along with some shooters, and I'll kill your zone all day. My favorite defenses are definitely the pressure mans from back in the day.
 
I am wondering how much editing this thread is going to need after everyone watches Washington's zone D tomorrow.
 
I am wondering how much editing this thread is going to need after everyone watches Washington's zone D tomorrow.

CU has the 57th best defense in the nation according to KenPom. Washington has the 94th.

Also, anyone who changes their mind on a sample size of 1 deserves to come to the wrong conclusion.
 
CU has the 57th best defense in the nation according to KenPom. Washington has the 94th.

Also, anyone who changes their mind on a sample size of 1 deserves to come to the wrong conclusion.
And ken Pom stats always tell the story exactly like it is.
 
And ken Pom stats always tell the story exactly like it is.
Strong retort?

I'd like to see Tad always play a little zone defense. If nothing else, it mixes it up for the other team and it makes our guys better at playing zone, which should help our offense, who has something decent to refine their offense against. Seems like the zone defense always gives us problems. Sorry, no KenPom access to back that up.

I really ate it up when Walton was receiving the ball at the high post and making passes (Bey dunk) or taking the easy jumper. He's tentative still, but immensely skilled in that position. As he (hopefully) continues to gather confidence (which Gordon never did), he's a strong weapon in that role and it's a zone buster.
 
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