Define "true point guard"

[Buffnik]

What do people mean when they say it?

I honestly have no idea what they're talking about.

Some examples of players who fit what you mean if you use this descriptor would help.

Is it a guy like Steph Curry or Kyrie Irving?

Is it a guy like Mark Jackson or John Stockton?

Some other profile?

 

[cnbuff410]

Chris Paul

 

[Buffnik]

Chris Paul

Would Spencer Dinwiddie fit that?

 

[torero]

Chris Paul

Booooooooo. A true PG is definitely not a dirty player who has never won anything and has a reputation that far exceeds his actual accomplishments.

As per Nik’s question, most people who are saying “true PG” mean a classic PG in that Mark Jackson/John Stockton/Andre Miller mold.

It should mean whatever is needed to make your team be successful. Steph Curry can be a true PG, but so can Nikola Jokic, but so can Rajon Rondo. All radically different, all successful.

 

[Uncle Ken]

@hokiehead

 

[Buffnik]

@hokiehead

He recently watched his Bucks win a championship without anyone you could call a "primary ball handler" let alone a "true point guard"

 

[cnbuff410]

Booooooooo. A true PG is definitely not a dirty player who has never won anything and has a reputation that far exceeds his actual accomplishments.

As per Nik’s question, most people who are saying “true PG” mean a classic PG in that Mark Jackson/John Stockton/Andre Miller mold.

It should mean whatever is needed to make your team be successful. Steph Curry can be a true PG, but so can Nikola Jokic, but so can Rajon Rondo. All radically different, all successful.

Nik was asking about "true PG", not "Great, clean, championship PG".

You can dislike a player and still define him as "pure shooter", "true PG", etc.

 

[cnbuff410]

And, believe it or not, CP3 raises the floor everywhere he goes. He is just not the type of player who takes a team to NBA champion.

 

[Buffnik]

And, believe it or not, CP3 raises the floor everywhere he goes. He is not just the player to take a team to NBA champion.

So is what you're talking about by "true pg" maybe "someone who is your primary ball handler, gets the team into offense or plays, looks to get others involved over his own scoring, and is efficient with the ball (2/1 A/T ratio)"?

Why I asked about Spencer is that he was all that, but he was also our primary scorer and might be taking every shot & FT attempt the last 4 minutes. I didn't know if that fit.

 

['99]

What do people mean when they say it?

I honestly have no idea what they're talking about.

Some examples of players who fit what you mean if you use this descriptor would help.

Is it a guy like Steph Curry or Kyrie Irving?

Is it a guy like Mark Jackson or John Stockton?

Some other profile?

McKinley Wright IV

• Team leader, without question
• Lead ball handler when on the court
• Has the ball in his hands on the final possession or with shot clock winding down
• Tough, physical defender

 

[cnbuff410]

So is what you're talking about by "true pg" maybe "someone who is your primary ball handler, gets the team into offense or plays, looks to get others involved over his own scoring, and is efficient with the ball (2/1 A/T ratio)"?

Yes. Those old players you listed above fits this profile as well. CP3 is probably the best player in the 2010s that fits this mold IMO.

And if you are asking whether Spencer fits as "true pg" when he was here, I don't think so. To me, he was kind of "do it all" type of guy, not a extreme pass first guy. For "true pg" in college, I was more thinking about someone like Tyler Ennis.

 

[cnbuff410]

And ya McKinley Wright would fit that too.

 

[hokiehead]

@hokiehead

I don't have sufficient technical knowledge of the game to weigh in here.

 

[Darth Snow]

Guys who run the offense.

 

[Buffnik]

Guys who run the offense.

That's where I'm at. In today's game, it's the guy who is running the show and that guy will often be your leading scorer. I'd add that he's also going to be the guy who usually brings the ball up the court after a made basket, which is how I'd differentiate between a PG and a Point Forward.

The game's evolved and it's typical that you want your best bucket getter to be your primary ball handler.

 

[Darth Snow]

That's where I'm at. In today's game, it's the guy who is running the show and that guy will often be your leading scorer. I'd add that he's also going to be the guy who usually brings the ball up the court after a made basket, which is how I'd differentiate between a PG and a Point Forward.

The game's evolved and it's typical that you want your best bucket getter to be your primary ball handler.

There are many different ways to be a point guard these days. It It no longer needs to be a small heady player that makes good passes and takes efficient shots while playing defense on the other teams small smart guy. I, personally, would love to see Tad recruit a 6 ft 9 guy who can guard 1 through 5 while shooting the three at a 40% clip and getting a 3 to 1 assist to turn over ratio while running the offense. That's just me though.

 

[Buffnik]

There are many different ways to be a point guard these days. It It no longer needs to be a small heady player that makes good passes and takes efficient shots while playing defense on the other teams small smart guy. I, personally, would love to see Tad recruit a 6 ft 9 guy who can guard 1 through 5 while shooting the three at a 40% clip and getting a 3 to 1 assist to turn over ratio while running the offense. That's just me though.

Yeah. I'd take college Danny Manning, Penny Hardaway or Ben Simmons as a Buff and inflict bodily harm on any CU fan who complained about not having a true point guard.

It might very well be what we're getting in Cody Williams.

 

[Darth Snow]

Yeah. I'd take college Danny Manning, Penny Hardaway or Ben Simmons as a Buff and inflict bodily harm on any CU fan who complained about not having a true point guard.

It might very well be what we're getting in Cody Williams.

I haven't heard anything about him as that kind of player but I'm willing to consider the possibility

 

[MtnBuff]

Primary ball handler
Makes teammates better by distributing the ball to take advantage of their skills
Is able to control speed and flow of the game
Leader/decision maker on the floor.
Doesn't have to be a great shooter but has to be able to create offense when needed. Usually not a teams primary scorer but scores enough to be a contributor/threat.
Able to effectively defend corresponding player on opponent.

Historically these have been the little guys but there were exceptions like Oscar Robertson.

More recently we have seen larger guys, even non-guards taking the role.

Magic Johnson is the classic example as is sometimes LeBron. Now breaking the mold entirely is Jokic who is currently the leagues best passer/playmaker and is unlike any other big man who has ever played the game.

Looking at recent national champions as well as highly talented teams that didn't make it as far as they should it may be that a point guard is the most important position. Even more important at the college level than the pros because less mature players need someone to make decisions and to not get swept up in the emotional turns of the game, negative momentum.

 

[Hidden Fees]

Pass first mentality and an on-floor extension of the coach

 

[Daaah]

Someone kind of like Stockton

 

[cu3x]

I have no idea.
But, what came to mind was the military "point man" from Vietnam.
The guy who went 1st, scouted ahead, saw what the opposition presented and called out the response.
And who took the worst of it, if he made a mistake.

 

[Goose]

I have no idea.
But, what came to mind was the military "point man" from Vietnam.
The guy who went 1st, scouted ahead, saw what the opposition presented and called out the response.
And who took the worst of it, if he made a mistake.

I mean, I’m frustrated with some of these players too but I’m not quite ready to give them to the Viet Cong.

 

[NWD Buff]

So, your true point guard loves the smell of napalm in the morning.

 

[hokiehead]

Charlie don't surf!

 

[ZandiBuff]

So, your true point guard loves the smell of napalm in the morning.

View attachment 58323

Smells like victory, so of course that's what you want from your PG

 

[Buffsbball]

I have a hard time letting go of the idea that the older definition of a (true) point guard isn't needed to win in college. In the NBA 100% you don't because of the skill level of 6'9 guys dictating the offense. However in college of the top 10 teams today below are the ones that I feel have a "True Point Guard".

1. Purdue- Braden Smith 10 PPG, 5 boards, 4 assists, has 50/40/90 shooting splits and 2/1 A/TO ratio and is 6'0 on a good day. Dictates their entire offense, getting guys the ball in spots that set them up for success and scores when he the team needs. Gritty player, the rest of Purdue mirrors his demeanor.

5. Kansas State- Marquis Nowell, 17, 3, 8, has 42/37/88 shooting splits with a 2.5/1 A/TO ratio. Plays fast, aggressive, and efficient and team follows suit.

7. Virginia- Kihei Clark 11.6 PPG, 2.7 Boards, and 5.8 assists, has 43/ 40/ 75 shooting splits and a 2.5/1 A/TO ratio and is 5'10 on a good day. Has crazy ball pressure, likes taking the last shot and knows how to get guys in the right spots

8. UCLA- Tyger Campbell 14 PPG, 2.5 boards, 4.5 assists, has 40/35/ 84shooting splits and a 2.5/1 A/TO ratio. 5'11 on a good day. Dictates pace, offense and ball handling

9. Kansas- Dajuan Harris (first person that came to mind when I saw this thread) 7.2 PPG, 2.3 boards, 6.5 assists, 45/42/77 shooting splits 3/1 A/TO ratio 6' makes winning plays. Led the Jayhawks to the title last year. Effects winning with deflections, hustle plays, etc.


I'd argue players that are slightly erratic, not efficient, and are selfish with shot selection and that play extremely fast and up and down the court IE (Kerr Krissa, Arizona, Zakai Zeigler Tenn ) don't fit the mold even if they may have similar or comparable stats to the players above. I was even slightly hesitant with Kihei Clark because he kind of is an in between.

So long story short 5/10 teams in the top 10 have what I'd define as a true point guard. 5/10 don't. The teams that don't Alabama, Houston, Tennessee, Texas, and Arizona have great coaches, systems, and talent at other positions that make up for the lack of a true point guard.

I'd also argue that depending on the team, players that could be true point guards take more of a scoring role because of the talent level surrounding them. Mike Smith of Michigan a few years back comes to mind. Was averaging 23, 5, and 5 at Columbia before grad transferring to Michigan and averaging 9, 3 , 5 and a 2/1 A/TO ratio filled the true pg role at Michigan perfectly when he was surrounded by improved talent.

 

[pmoney52]

I have a hard time letting go of the idea that the older definition of a (true) point guard isn't needed to win in college. In the NBA 100% you don't because of the skill level of 6'9 guys dictating the offense. However in college of the top 10 teams today below are the ones that I feel have a "True Point Guard".

1. Purdue- Braden Smith 10 PPG, 5 boards, 4 assists, has 50/40/90 shooting splits and 2/1 A/TO ratio and is 6'0 on a good day. Dictates their entire offense, getting guys the ball in spots that set them up for success and scores when he the team needs. Gritty player, the rest of Purdue mirrors his demeanor.

5. Kansas State- Marquis Nowell, 17, 3, 8, has 42/37/88 shooting splits with a 2.5/1 A/TO ratio. Plays fast, aggressive, and efficient and team follows suit.

7. Virginia- Kihei Clark 11.6 PPG, 2.7 Boards, and 5.8 assists, has 43/ 40/ 75 shooting splits and a 2.5/1 A/TO ratio and is 5'10 on a good day. Has crazy ball pressure, likes taking the last shot and knows how to get guys in the right spots

8. UCLA- Tyger Campbell 14 PPG, 2.5 boards, 4.5 assists, has 40/35/ 84shooting splits and a 2.5/1 A/TO ratio. 5'11 on a good day. Dictates pace, offense and ball handling

9. Kansas- Dajuan Harris (first person that came to mind when I saw this thread) 7.2 PPG, 2.3 boards, 6.5 assists, 45/42/77 shooting splits 3/1 A/TO ratio 6' makes winning plays. Led the Jayhawks to the title last year. Effects winning with deflections, hustle plays, etc.


I'd argue players that are slightly erratic, not efficient, and are selfish with shot selection and that play extremely fast and up and down the court IE (Kerr Krissa, Arizona, Zakai Zeigler Tenn ) don't fit the mold even if they may have similar or comparable stats to the players above. I was even slightly hesitant with Kihei Clark because he kind of is an in between.

So long story short 5/10 teams in the top 10 have what I'd define as a true point guard. 5/10 don't. The teams that don't Alabama, Houston, Tennessee, Texas, and Arizona have great coaches, systems, and talent at other positions that make up for the lack of a true point guard.

I'd also argue that depending on the team, players that could be true point guards take more of a scoring role because of the talent level surrounding them. Mike Smith of Michigan a few years back comes to mind. Was averaging 23, 5, and 5 at Columbia before grad transferring to Michigan and averaging 9, 3 , 5 and a 2/1 A/TO ratio filled the true pg role at Michigan perfectly when he was surrounded by improved talent.

Bingo

 

[Goose]

Guys who run the offense.

OK, my non-jackass answer is similar to this. When I say a "true point guard", I basically mean "someone who can get guys settled when things get disoriented". Doesn't have to be a guard. Jokic is it for the Nugs. LeBron for the Lakers. I think Williams will be that guy for us next year.

 

[Buffnik]

I have a hard time letting go of the idea that the older definition of a (true) point guard isn't needed to win in college. In the NBA 100% you don't because of the skill level of 6'9 guys dictating the offense. However in college of the top 10 teams today below are the ones that I feel have a "True Point Guard".

1. Purdue- Braden Smith 10 PPG, 5 boards, 4 assists, has 50/40/90 shooting splits and 2/1 A/TO ratio and is 6'0 on a good day. Dictates their entire offense, getting guys the ball in spots that set them up for success and scores when he the team needs. Gritty player, the rest of Purdue mirrors his demeanor.

5. Kansas State- Marquis Nowell, 17, 3, 8, has 42/37/88 shooting splits with a 2.5/1 A/TO ratio. Plays fast, aggressive, and efficient and team follows suit.

7. Virginia- Kihei Clark 11.6 PPG, 2.7 Boards, and 5.8 assists, has 43/ 40/ 75 shooting splits and a 2.5/1 A/TO ratio and is 5'10 on a good day. Has crazy ball pressure, likes taking the last shot and knows how to get guys in the right spots

8. UCLA- Tyger Campbell 14 PPG, 2.5 boards, 4.5 assists, has 40/35/ 84shooting splits and a 2.5/1 A/TO ratio. 5'11 on a good day. Dictates pace, offense and ball handling

9. Kansas- Dajuan Harris (first person that came to mind when I saw this thread) 7.2 PPG, 2.3 boards, 6.5 assists, 45/42/77 shooting splits 3/1 A/TO ratio 6' makes winning plays. Led the Jayhawks to the title last year. Effects winning with deflections, hustle plays, etc.


I'd argue players that are slightly erratic, not efficient, and are selfish with shot selection and that play extremely fast and up and down the court IE (Kerr Krissa, Arizona, Zakai Zeigler Tenn ) don't fit the mold even if they may have similar or comparable stats to the players above. I was even slightly hesitant with Kihei Clark because he kind of is an in between.

So long story short 5/10 teams in the top 10 have what I'd define as a true point guard. 5/10 don't. The teams that don't Alabama, Houston, Tennessee, Texas, and Arizona have great coaches, systems, and talent at other positions that make up for the lack of a true point guard.

I'd also argue that depending on the team, players that could be true point guards take more of a scoring role because of the talent level surrounding them. Mike Smith of Michigan a few years back comes to mind. Was averaging 23, 5, and 5 at Columbia before grad transferring to Michigan and averaging 9, 3 , 5 and a 2/1 A/TO ratio filled the true pg role at Michigan perfectly when he was surrounded by improved talent.

I wouldn't even consider trading KJ for Tyger to be our floor general.