Game thread- Women's bball at DU (Denver, Tuesday, 12/8, 6:00 PM MT, Live stream)

[AztecBuff]

The Buffs (2-2, 0-2) have their last scheduled non-conference game of the season this evening as they head down the road to Denver to face the Pioneers (1-2, 0-0). (Probably good they had this game scheduled, as their next Pac 12 game(against Utah) isn't scheduled until next Monday.)

Looks like there will be a free live stream available.

Go Buffs!!!

Preview-


Direct link - https://cubuffs.com/news/2020/12/7/womens-basketball-buffs-look-to-bounce-back-at-denver.aspx

"
DENVER – Colorado returned Boulder late Sunday night and got right back to work on Monday, following its sour start to the Pac-12 season. The Buffaloes will look to get back into the win column at in-state rival Denver on Tuesday (6 p.m. MT).

Colorado got off to the earliest start to a conference season in program history, having played just two games before having to go onto the road in conference play. The Buffs opened with No. 10 Oregon and No. 17 Oregon State last weekend, playing one of the toughest road trips in the nation, under any circumstances.

In a normal season, head coach JR Payne and her staff have 10 or 11 non-conference games to get a feel for the team. This season's schedule featured Western Colorado and Air Force as early opponents for the Buffs before getting thrown right into the thick of the Pac-12.

"Normally, throughout your preseason you spend a lot of time and effort throughout those 10 or 11 games in trying to figure out your best rotation," Payne said after the Oregon game. "It's been very difficult this year because we don't have any practice players, and everyone is always on the court. I can't really move people around to different lineups and different groups and see how they gel and who plays well together."
...

Tip-off against Denver is set for 6 p.m. MT. The game will be lived streamed and can be found at CUBuffs.com/WatchWBB. Cory Lopez and Carol Callan will have the call on AM 630 locally and across the Colorado Radio Network on the TuneIn app.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

A little more on the Pioneers -

Roster - https://denverpioneers.com/sports/womens-basketball/roster
Season to date stats - https://denverpioneers.com/sports/womens-basketball/stats/2020-21
Schedule - https://denverpioneers.com/sports/womens-basketball/schedule
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Media links:

Live video - Looks like Game is being shown live on a live stream available at https://denverpioneers.com/watch/?Live=344&type=Live . EDIT- looks like this link is a premium ($) one, with I assume only those DU fans who've signed up and paid for their sports package eligible to see it.

Live audio - https://cubuffs.com/watch/?Live=2431&type=Live or https://tunein.com/radio/Colorado-Womens-Basketball-s308228/?_branch_match_id=865003003259206117

Live stats - https://denverpioneers.com/sidearmstats/wbball/summary

Game notes - https://cubuffs.com/documents/2020/12/7//12_8_Denver.pdf?id=19421

 

[MarkW]

 

[AztecBuff]

It's 10-9 DU at ~7 minutes in.

Note- looking to me like the live stream link I provided in the original post is a premium ($) video

 

[AztecBuff]

Looks like this one has been tight, with ~5 point leads being the largest either team has had in the 1st half.

 

[BeAbuff]

DU by 10 midway through the 3rd. WTH is happening to this program?

 

[buffgal]

I did shell out the $10. There was no excuse for the foul by Aubrey Knight with 3 seconds left. She is not a freshmen. Of course the DU player swished the free throws and CU lost.

Utah upset Oregon State last night.

I now think we will finish last in the Pac 12. I mean that. It's going to be a long season.

JR is doing a virtual event tonight. I expect nothing but happy talk. I hope it's interactive because it's past time for excuses and happy talk.

Mya had a decent game. Jaylen had a decent game except the technical she got meant she fouled out. That might have been the difference in the game as if she was in the game with 3 seconds left, that silly foul may not have happened.

 

[BeAbuff]

No excuse, but here’s JRs excuse for the worst loss in 6 + years


JR On playing three games in five days
“I'm not one to make excuses, so I'm not going to talk about fatigue. I mean we certainly had a chance to win the ballgame. I'm not going to make that excuse. I mean obviously three games in five days is tough, no matter what. This [Denver] is a really scrappy tough, good team. But they beat us.”

 

[BeAbuff]

I did shell out the $10. There was no excuse for the foul by Aubrey Knight with 3 seconds left. She is not a freshmen. Of course the DU player swished the free throws and CU lost.

Utah upset Oregon State last night.

I now think we will finish last in the Pac 12. I mean that. It's going to be a long season.

JR is doing a virtual event tonight. I expect nothing but happy talk. I hope it's interactive because it's past time for excuses and happy talk.

Mya had a decent game. Jaylen had a decent game except the technical she got meant she fouled out. That might have been the difference in the game as if she was in the game with 3 seconds left, that silly foul may not have happened.

Maybe we could get Lappe to come back and recruit and let JR coach them.

 

[Bmixer]

In the article from the camera, they mentioned the refs called it tight on the perimeter and that the floor slap technical was questionable and the 3 games in 5 days stuff. It all seems like excuses to me. CU should never lose to DU in WWB. I put this on the seniors and juniors. Knight is my favorite person on the team but you can not commit that foul and Sila need to have the understanding on how the fouls are being called and adjust her game and not foul out. Mya is a nice player but is not a leader or a player to build around. Agree they are going to finish last in the pac 12 and will take another step back from being competitive in their league. I do not know the answer to the problem with the program but Payne, Lappe and these coaches that have no experience in P5 recruiting are not the answer. I do not see George doing anything this year because of Covid but imo something needs to change big time.

 

[buffgal]

When Shelley Sheetz was at DU under head coach Eric Johnson. DU beat CU at DU. Lappe was the coach then.

I don't think CU has the money to find a new coach this year either. I also don't think Rick George cares about WBB, As long as CU hires the types of coaches they have since Coach Barry retired, we will never be successful again. Remember Kathy McConnell-Miller (hired by Bohn) was no better than Lappe (also hired by Bohn).

Lappe was not and is not the answer to recruiting. She hated recruiting.

 

[Bmixer]

When Shelley Sheetz was at DU under head coach Eric Johnson. DU beat CU at DU. Lappe was the coach then.

I don't think CU has the money to find a new coach this year either. I also don't think Rick George cares about WBB, As long as CU hires the types of coaches they have since Coach Barry retired, we will never be successful again. Remember Kathy McConnell-Miller (hired by Bohn) was no better than Lappe (also hired by Bohn).

Lappe was not and is not the answer to recruiting. She hated recruiting.

If George likes web or not I can not say, but imo it is the 1 women's sport that CU offers that can bring in a crowd and help with the yearly task of balancing the budget. I agree CU does need to invest in the program more or it will not improve. IMO Payne is hurt by having her husband on the staff as it takes away a position for a great recruiter. I do not want to be negative about the program or J.R. but when you look at volleyball, soccer and lacrosse all have decent success and do a decent job. I agree Lappee is not the answer. I am not sold on getting somebody that has CU ties. Give me a coach who can recruit and get pac 12 level players and we can go from there. I just don't see that much talent on the roster

 

[WarBuff]

If George likes web or not I can not say, but imo it is the 1 women's sport that CU offers that can bring in a crowd and help with the yearly task of balancing the budget. I agree CU does need to invest in the program more or it will not improve. IMO Payne is hurt by having her husband on the staff as it takes away a position for a great recruiter. I do not want to be negative about the program or J.R. but when you look at volleyball, soccer and lacrosse all have decent success and do a decent job. I agree Lappee is not the answer. I am not sold on getting somebody that has CU ties. Give me a coach who can recruit and get pac 12 level players and we can go from there. I just don't see that much talent on the roster

There is too much turnover with numerous players leaving the program early. I get it that there are times where a player and/ or program just isn't a good fit, but it seems like we have experienced an unusually high number of players leaving. More than I can remember any coach experiencing.

 

[Willard Hall Hooligans]

If George likes web or not I can not say, but imo it is the 1 women's sport that CU offers that can bring in a crowd and help with the yearly task of balancing the budget. I agree CU does need to invest in the program more or it will not improve. IMO Payne is hurt by having her husband on the staff as it takes away a position for a great recruiter. I do not want to be negative about the program or J.R. but when you look at volleyball, soccer and lacrosse all have decent success and do a decent job. I agree Lappee is not the answer. I am not sold on getting somebody that has CU ties. Give me a coach who can recruit and get pac 12 level players and we can go from there. I just don't see that much talent on the roster

Hasn’t been talent in this program sincr KMM’s recruits and players allowed Lappe win thirteen Pac-12 Conference wins in a season and a 4th place finish. That is impossible under Payne.

Remember when Lappe begged for more time because her 3.0 star mid-major level recruits were going to turn the program around? That recruiting class won a total of fourteen Pac-12 games in FOUR seasons.

Chucky led her team to winning won 13 in one season. Chucky was drafted into the WNBA ad was Brittany Spears. Talent wins despite coaching. No such thing in Wbb as talent that still loses. This team had been devoid of talent since the ‘12-‘13 season due to a complete and total absence of Conference competent recruiting.

Payne could be a great coach for all we know. She has to go because she’s getting outrecruited by regional rivals with no national recruiting draw. CU has been trying to play Pac-12 basketball with mid-major level recruits. Simply put Lappe snd Payne failed because they can’t recruit.

 

[BeAbuff]

Hasn’t been talent in this program sincr KMM’s recruits and players allowed Lappe win thirteen Pac-12 Conference wins in a season and a 4th place finish. That is impossible under Payne.

Remember when Lappe begged for more time because her 3.0 star mid-major level recruits were going to turn the program around? That recruiting class won a total of fourteen Pac-12 games in FOUR seasons.

Chucky led her team to winning won 13 in one season. Chucky was drafted into the WNBA ad was Brittany Spears. Talent wins despite coaching. No such thing in Wbb as talent that still loses. This team had been devoid of talent since the ‘12-‘13 season due to a complete and total absence of Conference competent recruiting.

Payne could be a great coach for all we know. She has to go because she’s getting outrecruited by regional rivals with no national recruiting draw. CU has been trying to play Pac-12 basketball with mid-major level recruits. Simply put Lappe snd Payne failed because they can’t recruit.

I agree to a certain extent. Lappe’s ‘15 class was a top 20 class, Kelly Finley was a very good recruiter. Issue was Lappe couldn’t build on it nor could Payne. That class had a very good 17 season, particularly in light of ‘15 and ‘16. It’s a shame....

 

[Bmixer]

Lets be honest. There has not been a lot of winning since Ceal had it rolling and kate Fagan and Tera B was here. KMM got a couple of good players but could not coach on game day to save her life. CU only made the NCAA one year and that was Chuckie's senior year. There was a reason Lappe was fired and it was a good reason. I have heard Leanord was thinking of transferring if Lappe was not fired. Do not know if true, but the program did not win Lappe's last year and beating CSU and other bad teams in non conference do not count. If Lappe was thought well of she would have another head coaching job and she does not. to me all 3 have strength and weaknesses and it all adds up to bottom 3rd of the pac 12. Don't think J.R. will be fired this year as with Covid, I do not think George will by the buy out. To me J.R. needs proven recruiters at the p5 level or J.R needs to go, but I also think there is something systematic wrong with the program, not enough support form the A.D. ect. Lappe and KMM were not the answers and I am wondering if J.R. is the answer

 

[BeAbuff]

Lets be honest. There has not been a lot of winning since Ceal had it rolling and kate Fagan and Tera B was here. KMM got a couple of good players but could not coach on game day to save her life. CU only made the NCAA one year and that was Chuckie's senior year. There was a reason Lappe was fired and it was a good reason. I have heard Leanord was thinking of transferring if Lappe was not fired. Do not know if true, but the program did not win Lappe's last year and beating CSU and other bad teams in non conference do not count. If Lappe was thought well of she would have another head coaching job and she does not. to me all 3 have strength and weaknesses and it all adds up to bottom 3rd of the pac 12. Don't think J.R. will be fired this year as with Covid, I do not think George will by the buy out. To me J.R. needs proven recruiters at the p5 level or J.R needs to go, but I also think there is something systematic wrong with the program, not enough support form the A.D. ect. Lappe and KMM were not the answers and I am wondering if J.R. is the answer

Obviously none of them have shown the ABILTY to recruit and/or coach consistently, outside of the ‘15 class there has not been a top 25 class in 10+ years. On Leonard threatening to leave, you have that the opposite way. Based on discussions I had with people that would know she put her name in the portal after Lappe was separated. Appears to be loyal to a fault, stayed because of commitment to teammates and Ceal/RG. To bad for her but great for us, she could have gone just about anywhere.

 

[Bmixer]

Obviously none of them have shown the ABILTY to recruit and/or coach consistently, outside of the ‘15 class there has not been a top 25 class in 10+ years. On Leonard threatening to leave, you have that the opposite way. Based on discussions I had with people that would know she put her name in the portal after Lappe was separated. Appears to be loyal to a fault, stayed because of commitment to teammates and Ceal/RG. To bad for her but great for us, she could have gone just about anywhere.

could be, I just know what I heard, but it does not mean it is true. What I do know is that Lappe was not a good coach and while Leanord was a good player, she was not in the same category as Sheetz, Nightengale or Chuckie imo and Lappe did go 7-23 her last year. Personally I think if they are going to make a change they need a coach with P5 experience and has a name as a recruiter, but I just do not see that happening this year.

 

[buffgal]

Neither Chucky or Spears stuck with a WNBA team.

Chucky is currently the MVP of her league in Europe almost every week.

 

[WarBuff]

Neither Chucky or Spears stuck with a WNBA team.

Chucky is currently the MVP of her league in Europe almost every week.

They were fun to watch.

 

[Another Gary Indiana]

Well my imaginary elephants in the room are: How many minutes is Jank getting? And did the departure of Emma Clarke hurt the team more than we know?

The Jank thing is simply I liker her as a player and team member. The Clarke thing is I am not sure what the effect is or was.

With that said, regarding free throws, I assume the players were shooting a hundred free throws a day when they could not practice together? Maybe not?

One thing that would drive me nuts is having two coaches shouting out instructions during a game. One on offense and one on defense. That does not happen at ASU, UA, USC, and so on. One voice directing the game.

 

[dyemeduke]

As an overall CU fan, but poser Women's bball fan, I find these remarks disappointing. Not the posts themselves, but I was really hoping the team would do well last year. When Schwartz and others left, I was sort of annoyed and questioned the leadership. Last year though brought a lot of promise with the close losses/moral victories, and I thought maybe Payne was turning the corner. I guess the jury is out if that was the case, but early returns this season indicate no. If this season is an overall loss, we need to move on imo. 4 years is enough time to put your imprint on a program. She seems like a nice person, but we can't let this program languish. Hopefully this season turns around, but RG needs to be willing to make a move if not (isn't this the last year of her contract anyway?).

 

[buffgal]

Emma Clarke is playing professionally in Australia.

 

[GoBuffs!!]

Lets be honest. There has not been a lot of winning since Ceal had it rolling and kate Fagan and Tera B was here. KMM got a couple of good players but could not coach on game day to save her life. CU only made the NCAA one year and that was Chuckie's senior year. There was a reason Lappe was fired and it was a good reason. I have heard Leanord was thinking of transferring if Lappe was not fired. Do not know if true, but the program did not win Lappe's last year and beating CSU and other bad teams in non conference do not count. If Lappe was thought well of she would have another head coaching job and she does not. to me all 3 have strength and weaknesses and it all adds up to bottom 3rd of the pac 12. Don't think J.R. will be fired this year as with Covid, I do not think George will by the buy out. To me J.R. needs proven recruiters at the p5 level or J.R needs to go, but I also think there is something systematic wrong with the program, not enough support form the A.D. ect. Lappe and KMM were not the answers and I am wondering if J.R. is the answer

Curiousity, what was the reason Lappe was fired?

 

[Bmixer]

Curiousity, what was the reason Lappe was fired?

from what I heard, too many losing seasons, her last was 7-23 and the fact the culture around the team was toxic. I could be wrong and I believe their are people around who no more but iirc that was what came out afterwords. To me a program has a good culture if assistants remain or only leave for promotions. Jonas Chatterton, went to Oregon St as an assistant and that was about the time they took off. Not saying he is the only reason of main reason, but I think before the last year, Lappe had two assistants leave for other assistant jobs. Lappe should have never been hired, not enough experience and while she had a good initial and finishing class, most of her recruiting classes were not very good.

 

[WarBuff]

from what I heard, too many losing seasons, her last was 7-23 and the fact the culture around the team was toxic. I could be wrong and I believe their are people around who no more but iirc that was what came out afterwords. To me a program has a good culture if assistants remain or only leave for promotions. Jonas Chatterton, went to Oregon St as an assistant and that was about the time they took off. Not saying he is the only reason of main reason, but I think before the last year, Lappe had two assistants leave for other assistant jobs. Lappe should have never been hired, not enough experience and while she had a good initial and finishing class, most of her recruiting classes were not very good.

One vivid memory I have was listening to a couple of different games coming back from the airport over the years. One was when Bienemy was the OC and an open radio mic caught him swearing like only EB could swear. Some very awkward silence.

The second was a WBB game where the fan attendance was (no surprise) abysmal. Lappe was contesting a call and the whole exchange could be heard over the radio feed. The difference could not have been more pronounced. If nothing else, at least Lappe was a lady in public.

 

[Another Gary Indiana]

Emma Clarke is playing professionally in Australia.

Thanks for the heads up. I understand her reasoning as she had to sit out this year. I assume she missed the debacle there.

 

[Another Gary Indiana]

As an overall CU fan, but poser Women's bball fan, I find these remarks disappointing. Not the posts themselves, but I was really hoping the team would do well last year. When Schwartz and others left, I was sort of annoyed and questioned the leadership. Last year though brought a lot of promise with the close losses/moral victories, and I thought maybe Payne was turning the corner. I guess the jury is out if that was the case, but early returns this season indicate no. If this season is an overall loss, we need to move on imo. 4 years is enough time to put your imprint on a program. She seems like a nice person, but we can't let this program languish. Hopefully this season turns around, but RG needs to be willing to make a move if not (isn't this the last year of her contract anyway?).

Brian Howell during a chat back in January stated: "JR's contract is different from Tad's. The automatic extension is something that Mike Bohn put in contracts and Rick George was never a fan of that. JR's contract does not have that automatic extension. As of now, I believe her contract runs through next season, expiring after the 2020-21 season. She and Rick would likely meet after this season to discuss an extension."

Personally I would give her one more year. I would say if your kid was playing basketball during the pandemic, I would trust the kid in JR's hands. (The same with Tad.)

I don't care for the platoon system of coaching but if they turn things around, then my comments are just from the peanut gallery (probably are anyway).

 

[buffgal]

This season is different because of covid and all the disruptions and problems it has caused.

I had wondered how many of the international players would return. Actually how many of their parents would let them return. Emma had already left, but all of the returning foreign players and new foreign players did return. I especially wondered about Charlotte because of New Zealand having done a much better job of controlling the virus.

 

[BeAbuff]

Hasn’t been talent in this program sincr KMM’s recruits and players allowed Lappe win thirteen Pac-12 Conference wins in a season and a 4th place finish. That is impossible under Payne.

Remember when Lappe begged for more time because her 3.0 star mid-major level recruits were going to turn the program around? That recruiting class won a total of fourteen Pac-12 games in FOUR seasons.

Chucky led her team to winning won 13 in one season. Chucky was drafted into the WNBA ad was Brittany Spears. Talent wins despite coaching. No such thing in Wbb as talent that still loses. This team had been devoid of talent since the ‘12-‘13 season due to a complete and total absence of Conference competent recruiting.

Payne could be a great coach for all we know. She has to go because she’s getting outrecruited by regional rivals with no national recruiting draw. CU has been trying to play Pac-12 basketball with mid-major level recruits. Simply put Lappe snd Payne failed because they can’t recruit.

I was not saying the ‘15 class was good enough in and of itself to turn the program ; simply saying if they had built upon that class we may not be having this discussion. A top 25 class with 2 4 * players that added 10 wins from ‘16 to ‘17 should not have been wasted.

 

[GoBuffs!!]

from what I heard, too many losing seasons, her last was 7-23 and the fact the culture around the team was toxic. I could be wrong and I believe their are people around who no more but iirc that was what came out afterwords. To me a program has a good culture if assistants remain or only leave for promotions. Jonas Chatterton, went to Oregon St as an assistant and that was about the time they took off. Not saying he is the only reason of main reason, but I think before the last year, Lappe had two assistants leave for other assistant jobs. Lappe should have never been hired, not enough experience and while she had a good initial and finishing class, most of her recruiting classes were not very good.

Thanks, I was curious more about the "dirt", which may not be appropriate for an open forum...

I am aware of the externals (down turn in record, assistants leaving, game play, etc), and figured it was the right move, I just heard a lot of insinuations about things happening off court, but no real words, more of what you mention as a "toxic culture". I will clarify that I am only partially aware of what goes on with women's sports, but my view is that there are definite party lines that are rather polarizing with a lot of extremes on both ends that should not be tolerated.

From what I have heard, JR stays out of those items as much as possible, and although the product on the court has a bit to be desired, everyone is comfortable with what happens behind closed (and open) doors. As much as this is tough, for CU, at this time with budgets and COVID, I think that is going to be enough to keep you hired for a while, as long as the product on the floor isn't embarrassing. Similar to when MacIntyre was hired for football, I don't think he needed to win for a few years, just not embarrass anyone on the field, and keep out of the newspapers, but there will be a time when people will get tired of losing, will be more willing to have a polarizing program and a coach needs to win.