If the Pac-12 expanded to 16 teams (hoops dreams)

[Buffnik]

This is kind of a pipe dream, I know, but I was thinking about western basketball and what Pac-12 expansion could look like.

And it would look pretty damn good.

Imagine:

1. San Diego State
We grab the 3rd largest city in California (28th largest US media market).
Viejas Arena seats over 12k, is regularly packed, and has been an NCAA tournament site.
Aztecs have been in the Dance each of the past 6 seasons with 2 Sweet 16s in that period.

2. UNLV
We eliminate Nevada as a flyover state and add the nation's #41 media market with Las Vegas.
Thomas & Mack Center seats almost 19k, games are an EVENT, and has been an NBA All-Star game site.
Runnin' Rebels have been to 4 Final Fours and have won a national championship.

3. New Mexico
We eliminate another flyover state and add the nation's #47 media market with Albuquerque-Santa Fe.
Buffs get a destination we can drive to.
The Pit is a mad house, holds over 15k fans, and has been a regular host of the NCAA tournament, including a Final Four.
Lobos have 4 trips to the Dance since 2010 along with 3 MWC tourney titles.

4. BYU
(I'm going to ignore everything about politics, academics and Sunday games here.)
The PACN does a lot to bolster its plans for international expansion with BYU.
Marriott Center is amazing, seating almost 21k fans... and they get a great crowd.
Cougars have been to the Dance in 8 of the last 9 seasons with a Sweet 16 in that time.

This would be a ridiculously good basketball conference as a Pac-16. Also, it would nearly fill the western map and fully represent western culture.

Scheduling? Probably have to go with a North/South alignment here with 22 instead of 18 Pac games.

Pac-16 North
Cal, Stanford, Oregon, Oregon State, Washington, Washington State, Utah, BYU

Pac-16 South
UCLA, USC, Arizona, Arizona State, SDSU, UNLV, Colorado, New Mexico

2 games against your division rivals and 1 against the other division (22 conference games).

Then you schedule 9 or 10 non-conference games.

I find myself rooting for UNM and UNLV to get their sh!t together in football... SDSU, UNLV and UNM to get football stadium questions solved... and all of them to improve academic rankings... because this would be my ideal Pac-16 some day.

P.S. Above alignment also works well for football, with 7 games against division and 2 against other division (rotating over 8-year period so that you play everyone within each 4-year period and then flip home/road for the next 4-year period) & division champs play in Pac-16 title game.

 

[CVilleBuff]

22 game conference schedule would be a killer. I think a small conf does that, but it seems like full-on cannibalizing for a major conference to pile on more losses. I'd hope it stayed at 18

Arizona and UCLA in the same division is tough. Preferably a way to get around that for balance.

 

[Buffnik]

22 game conference schedule would be a killer. I think a small conf does that, but it seems like full-on cannibalizing for a major conference to pile on more losses. I'd hope it stayed at 18

Arizona and UCLA in the same division is tough. Preferably a way to get around that for balance.

You could go Pods for basketball scheduling.

UO, OSU, UW, WSU
Cal, Furd, USC, UCLA
UA, ASU, UNLV, SDSU
UU, BYU, UNM, CU

2 games each against the 3 teams in your pod = 6
1 game each against the 8 teams from the other pods = 12
18 total conference games per year

 

[sackman]

I know academics is a huge issue, but Boise would be a better addition than BYU, IMO.

 

[Darth Snow]

Someone got into the good scotch and weed last night

 

[Buffnik]

I know academics is a huge issue, but Boise would be a better addition than BYU, IMO.

Definitely a more likely addition. Adding Idaho doesn't do a ton, but it's definitely got much higher odds of being accepted by university administrators. Also eliminates a fly-over state, but man is that a tiny media market. I guess the football brand has national cache, so that helps. They have been decent at hoops in recent years, making the Dance about every third year. And Taco Bell arena holds over 12k and has been a regular early round NCAA tournament site. fwiw, Boise State is already an affiliate member of the Pac-12 for wrestling just as SDSU is for men's soccer.

 

[Buffalo Brad]

Someone got into the good scotch and weed last night

Naw, it was the conversation with Son #3 in the DH and at the game. Kayden has some truly innovative and deep analysis to stimulate these types of conversations.

 

[BehindEnemyLines]

Methinks the yoots would balk at having bag 'em young invited to the conference.

 

[Buffnik]

Naw, it was the conversation with Son #3 in the DH and at the game. Kayden has some truly innovative and deep analysis to stimulate these types of conversations.

Haha.

Boy's night out with his dad to get a burger and see a game. Buffs could have been playing a girl's middle school team and he would have had a great time. Allsome.

Have a great Thanksgiving.

 

[Buffnik]

Methinks the yoots would balk at having bag 'em young invited to the conference.

A lot of members would. It just won't happen. Boise State is a legit possibility, though, if this shakes out as the Pac-12 needing to expand to 16 based on what goes on with NCAA alignments -and- if within that shake-out the conference isn't able to chase the Texas money and ends up going the path of putting a stranglehold on the Mountain & Pacific geography/ time zones.

From a money standpoint, nothing would compare with poaching other conferences and expanding east into the central time zone with Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas and Nebraska. But that, I think, is a bigger pipe dream than what I posted. I also think that - or something in that direction - would dramatically alter the culture and nature of the Pac in ways that would compromise the identity of the conference.

In a way, you could argue that Colorado and Utah altered things. But I also think that was more of an extension of the UA/ASU expansion to a Pac-10 that moved the conference away from just being coastal states to embrace the mountain region. Going forward, I'd like to see the conference stick with the logo branding (waves and mountains).

 

[rolandftw]

Kinda obvious, but the Pac would need to add more value to their football brand to add more teams. Splitting revenue among 16 teams only makes sense if they value of the 4 teams raises revenue by a considerable margin. Nobody cares about these teams in football

We don't need to expand just for the sake of expanding. It's got to make sense

Now, if the Big XII folded at some point, and Oklahoma, Texas, OSU and even Kansas were in play, it is a different story.

 

[InTheBuff]

No to BYU ... yes to Kansas

 

[jcatcher]

Some random thoughts: I don't think the Sunday issue with BYU would be all that difficult, at least for football and basketball (which are what counts.) Football isn't an issue at all, and having one mandated Thursday/Saturday trip a year shouldn't cause any problems for basketball. It's the smaller and women's sports that might be an issue. Has the Conference looked at road partnering for other sports? Say women's volleyball and basketball travelling together? Men's and women's soccer?

I see the big problem as being academics and the University Presidents. There are no other AAU schools in the PAC footprint (except Cal Tech and their chess team) and none of the candidates are top-tier research institutes. The PAC-12 is up there with the B1G as the academic conference. In fact, the top half of the PAC is stronger than the top of the B1G. Match up Stanford, Cal, UCLA, USC, UDub, and CU with the B1G and the PAC wins. It's Iowa vs. WSU and Michigan State vs. ASU where it evens out.

Get some of that Albertson's and Simplot and Casino $$ from Nevada and start an elite private school in Coure D'Alene or Jackson or something.

ETA: Several of the other UC System schools are AAU members but have no big time sports to speak of. I'm sure the rest of the football coaches in the PAC-12 don't want to see any more CA schools in the Conference snatching up recruits.

 

[MtnBuff]

BYU isn't going to happen, and not just because of Sunday scheduling. Not only is the cultural gap between BYU and some of the conference member institutions wider than the Grand Canyon, it is wider than the Pacific Ocean. Simply not going to happen for many reasons.

Football drives the bus far more than basketball and for that reason the other suggestions aren't going to happen. SDSU has a huge and lucrative market but is a non-factor in that market. UNLV the same. UNM has loads of potential but their administration has never been able to get their act together for football. Boise is simply to small a market and with budget shortfalls the school is eventually going to cut back on spending for athletics.

I'd like to see UNM get their act together If we had to expand that would be one candidate. In a major conference re-alignment situation the idea pick ups from the B12 right now would be Kansas and Oklahoma but each comes with a co-joined twin that is not acceptable.

 

[CVilleBuff]

At some point, the state of New Mexico is going to have a Sun-Belt population boom. Still just 2.1 million, (from 1.8 in 2000), but given the crazy growth of AZ, TX, CO (and now Utah is underway) I'd imagine it's coming sooner or later.

 

[sackman]

At some point, the state of New Mexico is going to have a Sun-Belt population boom. Still just 2.1 million, (from 1.8 in 2000), but given the crazy growth of AZ, TX, CO (and now Utah is underway) I'd imagine it's coming sooner or later.

have you ever been to New Mexico? There isn't much to recommend there. It's boring and brown. Santa Fe is kinda cool, but outside of that, it's horrible. I don't see much of a renaissance there unless they can manage to attract a couple large corporations to relocate.

 

[CVilleBuff]

have you ever been to New Mexico? There isn't much to recommend there. It's boring and brown. Santa Fe is kinda cool, but outside of that, it's horrible. I don't see much of a renaissance there unless they can manage to attract a couple large corporations to relocate.

Indeed I have. I'm not wild about it either, certainly not my cup of tea. However, it's not like suburban Arizona or other parts of the SW now built up were lush paradises with golf and manicured lawns before man made it that way. Same could occur in NM. Areas like Las Cruces appeared on the edge of some major growth when I was last there. The trend is a steady move south and west in this country. I think NM grabs a share of that at some point.

 

[sackman]

Indeed I have. I'm not wild about it either, certainly not my cup of tea. However, it's not like suburban Arizona or other parts of the SW now built up were lush paradises with golf and manicured lawns before man made it that way. Same could occur in NM. Areas like Las Cruces appeared on the edge of some major growth when I was last there. The trend is a steady move south and west in this country. I think NM grabs a share of that at some point.

Water is the key. I don't know if they have enough down there. Well, that and climate. It's a lot warmer in Arizona than it is in New Mexico. Geographically, Albuquerque should be a lot bigger than it is. I suspect it's due to those factors.

I'd love to see UNM eventually make it into the Pac. It would be one more team that's reasonably close to us for travel purposes. The problem is that I freaking HATE Albuquerque. But I hated Lincoln, too. I would get over it.

 

[MtnBuff]

New Mexico has some serious ugly but also a lot of really attractive places with a nice climate. All that vacant land means that development can be cheaper, based on water of course as Sacky mentions but all that would take is transfering water from irrigation to domestic use, something Colorado, Arizona, and California have done to drive growth. If I didn't stay in Colorado there are some places in New Mexico that would be worth considering.

New Mexico's biggest problem is one of infrastructure for development. The educational system is one of the worst in the country, UNM is decent there are some technology development areas around some government facilities, most notably Los Alimos and Sandia, but from a technology standpoint and having that developmental synergy that occurs when you have high concentrations of educated, creative people they are lacking.

 

[Buffnik]

ABQ has experienced kind of a tech boom with Intel having a huge facility there. There's also some cutting edge stuff with live-work-telecommute designed new neighborhoods in the burbs. It's the next boom, I think, for people looking to leave Cali and find lower cost housing (just like we saw drive the Phoenix area explosion and the Las Vegas boom).

 

[hokiehead]

I love expansion talk. a few quick thoughts:
San Diego State is in the MWCCG this year (for those not paying attention, if AFA wins today, they host next Sat)
if Notre Dame makes the playoffs, that's one more P5 conference that doesn't. If you really want to see the next round of expansion get started, root for the Irish.

keeping it focused on hoops, @Buffnik makes a good case. UNM makes another road trippable game. BYU gives you a passionate fan base dedicated to athletics.

 

[sackman]

The Sunday schedule stuff is way overstated. Just like He did when threatened with losing their tax exempt status over their stance on Blacks in the church, "God" will tell somebody that it's OK to play on Sundays. It'll be miraculous.

As for me, I'd still prefer Boise to BYU.

As long as Texas is not in the discussion, I'm ok with it. Bring those goobers into the conversation and the gloves come off.

 

[MtnBuff]

The Sunday schedule stuff is way overstated. Just like He did when threatened with losing their tax exempt status over their stance on Blacks in the church, "God" will tell somebody that it's OK to play on Sundays. It'll be miraculous.

As for me, I'd still prefer Boise to BYU.

As long as Texas is not in the discussion, I'm ok with it. Bring those goobers into the conversation and the gloves come off.

It's not just Sundays although I think that BYU would stand pretty firm on that one as well.

The issue is an entire cultural fit. We are talking about a conference that includes Cal-Berkley, UCLA, Stanford, etc. and yes CU-Boulder inviting a school that is owned and run by a church that has been highly vocal against gay marriage, abortion, women's rights, and a relatively recent history of open discrimination against blacks and others.

BYU is also a completely different school than the rest of the PAC in terms of academics. It has some excellent programs, especially undergraduate programs but would simply not be a fit in terms of comparing research programs. There are also some real concerns about BYU in terms of academic freedom that would not go over well with the other PAC schools.

For the record I don't think Boise is a fit either. They are not comparable as a school and offer very little value to the PAC in terms of expanding the size or value of the market

At the moment I don't see an expansion scenario that makes the PAC a better conference or more valuable to each individual member. If absolutely forced to expand I agree that Texas needs to go elsewhere. Best choices might be to go to Oklahoma and Kansas (without their brother schools) New Mexico, and ???

 

[sackman]

I'm warming up to the idea of UNM and Boise in the Pac. Two more Mountain time zone teams would help for scheduling. I know Boise is a train wreck, academically, so that'll probably eliminate them from consideration by schools like Stanford and Cal.

As for BYU and Sunday scheduling - if history has shown us anything, it's that when enough money is involved, miracles have a way of happening. I'm not predicting it, but if the Pac goes to BYU and says "you'll get an extra $20MM per year, but you have to agree to play every once in a while on Sundays", you can bet your ass there will be an epiphany in Provo.

 

[rynobuff]

I hate to say it but if you couldn't get BYU, CSU wouldn't be a bad option.

 

[sackman]

I hate to say it but if you couldn't get BYU, CSU wouldn't be a bad option.

Would prefer it, actually.

 

[CVilleBuff]

As much as I hate BYU, I still look at them with a degree of prestige. For instance, even with their hoops in the WCC, I view them as more of a "name" opponent for us than CSU.

 

[Buffnik]

As much as I hate BYU, I still look at them with a degree of prestige. For instance, even with their hoops in the WCC, I view them as more of a "name" opponent for us than CSU.

For sure. Much more likely to draw network coverage on the east coast by playing BYU than by playing CSU (basketball or football).

 

[MtnBuff]

CSU would be a decent fit from an academic and research standpoint. Makes no sense financially. They simply don't generate enough viewer interest to come close to generating enough revenue to offset their conference payout. In other words every school in the conference would lose significant money if CSU joined. Probably over $1 million a year per school.

 

[sackman]

CSU would be a decent fit from an academic and research standpoint. Makes no sense financially. They simply don't generate enough viewer interest to come close to generating enough revenue to offset their conference payout. In other words every school in the conference would lose significant money if CSU joined. Probably over $1 million a year per school.

And there's that.

Unless it's a deal where the P12 network is dying for content. I suppose that *could* be the case. In a 16 team league, it's more likely that you'll have 4-5 teams that don't get picked up by the national networks on any given Saturday. In those cases, the P12 network would be able to show additional games and generate additional revenues no matter who gets added to the league. I realize that's a lame reason to expand, but there you go.