Just a vocal minority

[Buffnik]

I made a statement on Rivals that the CU & Embree-supporter messaging is that it is just a vocal minority that opposes the idea of giving Embree at least 4 or 5 years to see his plan through. I added to this by saying that I don't know if that's true or not -- and I am not sure whether they know if it is true or not. But that this is the messaging.

I was asked if it would surprise me to learn that I was in the minority.

Below was my response. Maybe I'm wrong. I'd love to hear your impressions.

*******************

I didn't express an opinion in that post. But since you're asking for one, I'd say that I think it would depend on what segment of fans you asked.

I'm confident that the majority of students and internet community fans do not support 4 or 5.

My impression is that the casual fans (bandwagon) that may take in a game every now and then pretty much just see the weekly scores do know that the team is really bad. Based on that, they could go either way. Probably would support a new coach although it wouldn't sit well with most when they look at the cost and think about the rising tuition costs (same opinion on facilities). This crowd is much more likely to mention Dave Logan as a candidate (especially if they're from in-state) than they are to know names like Dave Doeren, Bob Diaco and Mike MacIntyre. I'd put them 50/50 and feel they can be largely ignored because they'll just go with it either way. This group makes up the vast majority of the CU fan base, especially when the CU supporters who don't care much about athletics is added to it.

Last, there are the folks who have had season tickets and/or CU involvement for decades and the former coaches / former players along with their loyalists. I think that's the 2nd largest group when added together and I would assume that the majority of this group would favor the 4 or 5 year plan.

So, yes, I do think I am in the minority. I also think that the majority position represents the people who look most in-depth at what is going on and has the most educated opinions. Opinions that are also the most free of political considerations.

But I don't have any data to support the above. Just my personal impressions. And connecting the dots, this is why I believe that Embree will get at least 4 or 5 years and the vision Mac & Embree have for how to rebuild the CU program will never be cut short unless the financial impact of declining season tickets and donations gets so bad that it forces a change.

 

[Walter White]

I'd like to see any poll that shows support for keeping JE.
By the way, that's just a given in sports. If your team sucks, the fans want the coach fired. Water is wet.

 

[dio]

I don't know about your casual fan group. I know many, many casual fans who look at this team and wonder what's going on. I'm constantly getting asked by people at work if Embree is staying. When I tell them probably, they look at me with shock.

I think if you broke down casual fans, about 70% want him gone, and 30% are as you describe (The Loganites). My support for this is that only 38k showed up for Washington - which is 5k below what we were seeing at Hawkins worst. Fans, even casual, aren't stupid.

I think the main issue is that the Buffs4Life group has the ear of a few big donors and of course the media - and thus their voice is greatly amplified. You couple that with the absolutely terrible administration and leadership at CU, and you get what we're seeing now.

 

[Buffnik]

I don't know about your casual fan group. I know many, many casual fans who look at this team and wonder what's going on. I'm constantly getting asked by people at work if Embree is staying. When I tell them probably, they look at me with shock.

I think if you broke down casual fans, about 70% want him gone, and 30% are as you describe (The Loganites). My support for this is that only 38k showed up for Washington - which is 5k below what we were seeing at Hawkins worst. Fans, even casual, aren't stupid.

I think the main issue is that the Buffs4Life group has the ear of a few big donors and of course the media - and thus their voice is greatly amplified. You couple that with the absolutely terrible administration and leadership at CU, and you get what we're seeing now.

So you'd paint it more as the vocal minority being the B4L constituency, which also enjoys the greatest degree of perceived credibility along with the most influence on media and CU leadership?

 

[dio]

Yep - and I think that will be played out when you see attendance and season ticket numbers next season. I think next year is the first year in awhile were the RMS is going to have equal attendance between CSU and CU

 

[GoonieBuff]

Regarding the casual fan: My dad was shocked when I told him that Embree would nearly surely be back. As a sports enthusiast, but only a casual CU fan (only because I went there - he lives out of state), he thought it was nuts that any school would bring back a coach with only one win in his second year with a program, who has also led the team to having such a poorly ranked offense and defense.

 

[Lt.Col.FrankSlade]

Majority of CU fan is just not very football smart. That Dave Logan is always the first name mentioned when it comes to an opening verifies that. And listening to the dumb****s who called the radio show last night only reinforces it.

 

[lawdogg]

I honestly have no idea what the "majority" opinion is with respect to retaining JE. I'm out of state and have been for many years now, and most of the folks who I interact with on a daily basis don't follow CU at all. I suspect that the majority of people would conclude that terminating any coach after the way things have gone in the Embree years would be appropriate. As for folks who are invested in the program though, all I've got is what I hear from you guys and gals and the other message boards. Based on that, the majority again seems to be in favor of cleaning house.

 

[Buffnik]

Majority of CU fan is just not very football smart. That Dave Logan is always the first name mentioned when it comes to an opening verifies that. And listening to the dumb****s who called the radio show last night only reinforces it.

For the majority of in-state casual fans, I think it goes like this with Logan:

1. He sounds knowledgeable and seems likeable on the Broncos broadcasts.
2. He's on a bunch of local tv commercials, so he must be something.
3. People say he's the greatest HS coach in CO history.
4. I heard he's a CU grad and they need a coach to fix things.

Honestly, before I moved to Colorado I had never heard of Dave Logan. I kept seeing this guy on bank and other commercials and no idea who he was. Figured he must be some ex-Bronco from the 70s or early Elway days. Nationally, hiring Logan would be a bigger head scratcher to recruits and media than even Embree was.

 

[DBT]

For the majority of in-state casual fans, I think it goes like this with Logan:

1. He sounds knowledgeable and seems likeable on the Broncos broadcasts.
2. He's on a bunch of local tv commercials, so he must be something.
3. People say he's the greatest HS coach in CO history.
4. I heard he's a CU grad and they need a coach to fix things.

Honestly, before I moved to Colorado I had never heard of Dave Logan. I kept seeing this guy on bank and other commercials and no idea who he was. Figured he must be some ex-Bronco from the 70s or early Elway days. Nationally, hiring Logan would be a bigger head scratcher to recruits and media than even Embree was.

The one thing I can say in his defense is that non other than Mike Shannahan stated that Dave Logan has one of the best offensive minds he knows. FWTW. But, yeah, nationally he would be viewed as a "WTF?" hire. I could see him as an OC. But would he take the huge pay cut?

 

[J.R. Ewing]

The one thing I can say in his defense is that non other than Mike Shannahan stated that Dave Logan has one of the best offensive minds he knows. FWTW. But, yeah, nationally he would be viewed as a "WTF?" hire. I could see him as an OC. But would he take the huge pay cut?

That would be viewed nationally as a good punchline for about 2 minutes before the media turned back to paying attention to relevant programs.

 

[duaneallman8]

At a brewery in Co. Springs last night, someone noticed my CU hat and told me he has rushed the field three times: The UGA game, the Nebraska game, "Nebraska. 62-36, what was that? Like, 2002 I think" and some other game he couldnt remember. He told me we would be 10-1 next season. I jokingly said if we changed coches we might. He then replied with, "Give Embree a chance, man." I walked away. I wonder if he has even seen a game this season? The qb sneak? The timeout - delay of game series etc? Tired, so tired of this

 

[buffaholic]

Nik - the kind of fans that are invited to Benson's box do not even know who B4L is. They are Mac robots.

And their voice counts

 

[Buffnik]

Nik - the kind of fans that are invited to Benson's box do not even know who B4L is. They are Mac robots.

And their voice counts

Thanks for the info.

That is exactly what I think most of us would have expected and it explains a lot.

 

[Buffalo Brad]

So you'd paint it more as the vocal minority being the B4L constituency, which also enjoys the greatest degree of perceived credibility along with the most influence on media and CU leadership?

I believe this is true Nik. Even the most casual fans or fans of other programs who get to talk to are stunned that there is even a question of him being fired. Most assume it is going to happen and will be shocked but just shrug it off when he is back. B4L is a minority but has the media and ability to keep the Vocal minority down (these are the folks who are willing to fight for a change). They have painted us as a minority because they have a bigger megaphone.

 

[BlackNGold]

I am not in any group. I am disappointed in the results this season and believe that Embree has not performed well this season. There are a lot of reasons for that happening - but bottom line is this team lacks a "soul" so all their deficiencies are magnified. When you don't trust in one another and play that way you get the result you see. Some of that is on the coaches and some on the players. In spite of my disappointment I still do not believe that Embree has had enough time so I am in favor of him returning next season. I do not have a finite number of years but I definitely think he should have another season.

Most CU fans have unrealistic expectations. A month ago someone on this board was posting that CU should have top 25 recruiting classes every year and someone responded top 10 classes should be no problem. It just illustrates that CU fans perceive CU as an elite program. It is not. Sine the 1960s only 3 CU coaches have won a Conference Championship and we fired 2 of those...Our fans think they increase their voice by boycotting the team, instead they only prove to the administration that CU fans support is tenuous. Alabama can fire a coach on whim because they know they have the support of fans and with that comes the money to pay big bucks for the buyout and the replacement. CU does not have that.

 

[cubuffthis]

Nik, as a newbie here, how much money does the Buff4Life group(individual or group) put into the athletic dept.? If these idiots and the ones who are the "wine and cheese" fans want CU to be the Harvard of the region then just end the football. That would stop all of the people sending e-mails, letters, phone calls, call-ins to shows, etc from going on. This would stop Bohn, DiStephano and Benson among others from seeing our desire for them to get this sh#t together so that people who care won't give themselves concussion after concussion from the dumbass decisions and recruits from bailing on a team that looks good when they run out and completely falls apart from the OC and DC putting them in horrible positions and making completely idiotic calls. Then there would be a stadium that could look good for pictures and rent it out for parties.

 

[somebody]

I am not in any group. I am disappointed in the results this season and believe that Embree has not performed well this season. There are a lot of reasons for that happening - but bottom line is this team lacks a "soul" so all their deficiencies are magnified. When you don't trust in one another and play that way you get the result you see. Some of that is on the coaches and some on the players. In spite of my disappointment I still do not believe that Embree has had enough time so I am in favor of him returning next season. I do not have a finite number of years but I definitely think he should have another season.

Most CU fans have unrealistic expectations. A month ago someone on this board was posting that CU should have top 25 recruiting classes every year and someone responded top 10 classes should be no problem. It just illustrates that CU fans perceive CU as an elite program. It is not. Sine the 1960s only 3 CU coaches have won a Conference Championship and we fired 2 of those...Our fans think they increase their voice by boycotting the team, instead they only prove to the administration that CU fans support is tenuous. Alabama can fire a coach on whim because they know they have the support of fans and with that comes the money to pay big bucks for the buyout and the replacement. CU does not have that.

Wow. What does this guy have to do to prove he can't coach? Seriously. Schedule and lose against high schools?

 

[boydbuff]

Wow. What does this guy have to do to prove he can't coach? Seriously. Schedule and lose against high schools?

No kidding. There are 119 teams that are playing better than us and only 25 of them are top 25 teams. That means there are currently 94 teams getting better results than Embree with less than world class facilities, tradition, etc.

 

[Buffnik]

Nik, as a newbie here, how much money does the Buff4Life group(individual or group) put into the athletic dept.? If these idiots and the ones who are the "wine and cheese" fans want CU to be the Harvard of the region then just end the football. That would stop all of the people sending e-mails, letters, phone calls, call-ins to shows, etc from going on. This would stop Bohn, DiStephano and Benson among others from seeing our desire for them to get this sh#t together so that people who care won't give themselves concussion after concussion from the dumbass decisions and recruits from bailing on a team that looks good when they run out and completely falls apart from the OC and DC putting them in horrible positions and making completely idiotic calls. Then there would be a stadium that could look good for pictures and rent it out for parties.

Buffs4Life is an organization of former CU athletes, mostly football, that was formed as a charity by Embree to help out other former CU athletes who may need some support. It's a good group. Not a big charity and really not big donors. Many weren't even members of the Buff Club until Embree became coach and pressured them to at least make the $50 minimum donation and get their card (Klatt, for example). Anyway, with the lobbying of these influential folks, the organization became kind of politicized and got away from its original mission some. But their influence is in no way about the money they give.

 

[cubuffthis]

They seem to have a major influence on what is going on. It just seems if they want one of their own to succeed, then they would use some of the influence to raise some of the funds for upgrades. Thanks for your time.

 

[OUBuff]

I am not in any group. I am disappointed in the results this season and believe that Embree has not performed well this season. There are a lot of reasons for that happening - but bottom line is this team lacks a "soul" so all their deficiencies are magnified. When you don't trust in one another and play that way you get the result you see. Some of that is on the coaches and some on the players. In spite of my disappointment I still do not believe that Embree has had enough time so I am in favor of him returning next season. I do not have a finite number of years but I definitely think he should have another season.

Most CU fans have unrealistic expectations. A month ago someone on this board was posting that CU should have top 25 recruiting classes every year and someone responded top 10 classes should be no problem. It just illustrates that CU fans perceive CU as an elite program. It is not. Sine the 1960s only 3 CU coaches have won a Conference Championship and we fired 2 of those...Our fans think they increase their voice by boycotting the team, instead they only prove to the administration that CU fans support is tenuous. Alabama can fire a coach on whim because they know they have the support of fans and with that comes the money to pay big bucks for the buyout and the replacement. CU does not have that.

Wow. What does this guy have to do to prove he can't coach? Seriously. Schedule and lose against high schools?

While I don't share the opinion, I do appreciate a non emotional explination of his support for Embree getting one more year. Rep.

 

[BuffaloChuck]

...If your team sucks, the fans want the coach fired. Water is wet.

Yes. And I think the 5th year extension to Hawkins to dig CU Football into a deeper pit is my biggest reason for firing Embree now. The sides have caved in, there's no need to see if a deeper pit yields a better view of the sun. Programs that set records for other teams, other players and other conferences are NOT moving forward.

You make an excellent - and valid - comment. I think if this was the 5th year in a Hawkins-then-Embree situation, I might be more cautious in the axe, but this is actually Year 7, not just 2, not just 5. But Year 7.

 

[somebody]

While I don't share the opinion, I do appreciate a non emotional explination of his support for Embree getting one more year. Rep.

It's illogical, but okay. I believe expectations were generally low - at least mine were. After Hawkins' crappy recruiting, in comes an inexperienced coach to save the day? Right. I expected a learning curve while building talent. But Embree has gone backwards, losing in spectacular fashion to some mediocre teams. This is a cold, hard fact that drives the emotional responses: the guy can't coach.