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Ralphie Report: Colorado Basketball: Plateauing at 5,345 Feet

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A look at the meteoric rise and subsequent stagnation of a program and its fans. On the afternoon of Saturday, February 13, the Colorado Buffaloes pulled out a thrilling 81-80 victory over the University of Washington at the Coors Events Center. It vaulted them past the Huskies in the Pac-12 standings and by the end of the weekend the Buffs were tied with Utah for 3rd place in the conference....

Click the link above or visit http://www.ralphiereport.com for more.

by Ted Chalfen
Continue reading...
 
This is a fantastic deep dive.

TL;DR - EVERYONE is responsible. Students, administration, casual fans, season ticket holders, the team, Tad, EVERYONE.
 
A depressing read really ...
  • Remember all those wins over ranked opponents 4-5 years ago? Distant memories.
  • CU's peak was with guys Tad didn't recruit. Plain and simple.
  • This whole hoops "rise and fall of attendance" thing is just emblematic of sports culture in Boulder and why its so difficult to win there, and attract top-tier coaching and athletic talent. There is just an HUGE swath of students that could not give a **** about CU athletics. Once you get outside the Greek scene, nobody cares. When you combine the high percentage of hippies and alternative sports junkies (bikers/climbers/skiers, etc.), with the ultra progressive Boulder residents (read: generally not into conventional sports), it's a recipe for lukewarm support at best. Only when the team is ranked or close to ranked will there be big crowds. The culture of support for CU sports is just not there like it is for the vast majority of power conference schools. Just look at the dwindling activity on the boards and comment sections around the web. And if Boulder was 30 minutes further from Denver? Holy ****, we'd be at the bottom of the league in attendance for sure.
 
Last edited:
seattlebuff said:
A depressing read really ...
  • Remember all those wins over ranked opponents 4-5 years ago? Distant memories.
  • CU's peak was with guys Tad didn't recruit. Plain and simple.
  • This whole hoops "rise and fall of attendance" thing is just emblematic of sports culture in Boulder and why its so difficult to win there, and attract top-tier coaching and athletic talent. There is just an HUGE swath of students that could not give a **** about CU athletics. Once you get outside the Greek scene, nobody cares. When you combine the high percentage of hippies and alternative sports junkies (bikers/climbers/skiers, etc.), with the ultra progressive Boulder residents (read: generally not into conventional sports), it's a recipe for lukewarm support at best. Only when the team is ranked or close to ranked will there be big crowds. The culture of support for CU sports is just not there like it is for more power conference schools. Just look at the dwindling activity on the boards and comment sections around the web. And if Boulder was 30 minutes further from Denver? Holy ****, we'd be at the bottom of the league in attendance for sure.
Click to expand...
TL;DR... CU has fair weather fans
 
seattlebuff said:
A depressing read really ...
  • Remember all those wins over ranked opponents 4-5 years ago? Distant memories.
  • CU's peak was with guys Tad didn't recruit. Plain and simple.
  • This whole hoops "rise and fall of attendance" thing is just emblematic of sports culture in Boulder and why its so difficult to win there, and attract top-tier coaching and athletic talent. There is just an HUGE swath of students that could not give a **** about CU athletics. Once you get outside the Greek scene, nobody cares. When you combine the high percentage of hippies and alternative sports junkies (bikers/climbers/skiers, etc.), with the ultra progressive Boulder residents (read: generally not into conventional sports), it's a recipe for lukewarm support at best. Only when the team is ranked or close to ranked will there be big crowds. The culture of support for CU sports is just not there like it is for the vast majority of power conference schools. Just look at the dwindling activity on the boards and comment sections around the web. And if Boulder was 30 minutes further from Denver? Holy ****, we'd be at the bottom of the league in attendance for sure.
Click to expand...

Do you not remember 2013? Does no one remember that season actually existed? Yes it ended poorly, but Tad had a plan and it was being executed to perfection. An injury to the corner stone of that roster is the only reason that season missed its expectations.

A neutral site loss to #25 **** Baylor by 12
A home win against #6 KU
A neutral site loss to #7 OkSU by 5
A home win vs #10 Oregon

CU won 23 games that season. 23! They won 14 games before The Mayor got injured. After that they won 9 of the remaining 18. I would think with Spencer, CU win's 3-4 more of those, before the NCAA tournament. That was a team poised for a a sweet 16 or elite 8 run. They were that good with that elite pg. Tad built that. With a roster 99% full of his own guys, (Ben Mills and the walk on seniors)

Tad's biggest mistake was that he couldn't build on that momentum in recruiting and land a truly elite PG to replace Spencer.
 
seattlebuff said:
A depressing read really ...
  • CU's peak was with guys Tad didn't recruit. Plain and simple.
Click to expand...
We'll assume you are referring to his second season as his peak when we won the conf and an NCAA game tournament.

I didnt realize BZ (or Patton) had recruited:

- Booker
- Dinwiddie
- Roberson
- Brown
- Adams
- Chen

Why do you say such demonstrably false and stupid things over an over?
 
seattlebuff said:
A depressing read really ...
  • Remember all those wins over ranked opponents 4-5 years ago? Distant memories.
  • CU's peak was with guys Tad didn't recruit. Plain and simple.
  • This whole hoops "rise and fall of attendance" thing is just emblematic of sports culture in Boulder and why its so difficult to win there, and attract top-tier coaching and athletic talent. There is just an HUGE swath of students that could not give a **** about CU athletics. Once you get outside the Greek scene, nobody cares. When you combine the high percentage of hippies and alternative sports junkies (bikers/climbers/skiers, etc.), with the ultra progressive Boulder residents (read: generally not into conventional sports), it's a recipe for lukewarm support at best. Only when the team is ranked or close to ranked will there be big crowds. The culture of support for CU sports is just not there like it is for the vast majority of power conference schools. Just look at the dwindling activity on the boards and comment sections around the web. And if Boulder was 30 minutes further from Denver? Holy ****, we'd be at the bottom of the league in attendance for sure.
Click to expand...
You are a strange bird. Stick to reality
 
absinthe said:
We'll assume you are referring to his second season as his peak when we won the conf and an NCAA game tournament.

I didnt realize BZ (or Patton) had recruited:

- Booker
- Dinwiddie
- Roberson
- Brown
- Adams

Why do you say such demonstrably false and stupid things over an over?
Click to expand...
Maybe he was referring to Frosty Cox' teams as CU peaking.
 
absinthe said:
We'll assume you are referring to his second season as his peak when we won the conf and an NCAA game tournament.

I didnt realize BZ (or Patton) had recruited:

- Booker
- Dinwiddie
- Roberson
- Brown
- Adams
- Chen

Why do you say such demonstrably false and stupid things over an over?
Click to expand...

We didn't play a single ranked opponent that year until UNLV in the tourney (yes, I know we won ...)

IMO, our best team of the Tad era is the 2010-11 team that got hosed on selection day. 4 wins over ranked opponents that year, something we haven't come close to duplicating since. Burks and Higgins (not his recruits, right??) were the best talent we've had in the past 10 years, and better than any of the guys on your list above. I'd put them ahead of Spencer, who might have surpassed them but with the injury, we'll never really know. Why is Spencer still languishing in the D league with a sub par Detroit team? To this point, Higgins played more games in the NBA. Roberson was great for us, and has surprisingly held on with OKC despite poor stats, but from a pure talent perspective, I'd take Burks and Higgins.
 
seattlebuff said:
We didn't play a single ranked opponent that year until UNLV in the tourney (yes, I know we won ...)

IMO, our best team of the Tad era is the 2010-11 team that got hosed on selection day. 4 wins over ranked opponents that year, something we haven't come close to duplicating since. Burks and Higgins (not his recruits, right??) were the best talent we've had in the past 10 years, and better than any of the guys on your list above. I'd put them ahead of Spencer, who might have surpassed them but with the injury, we'll never really know. Why is Spencer still languishing in the D league with a sub par Detroit team? To this point, Higgins played more games in the NBA. Roberson was great for us, and has surprisingly held on with OKC despite poor stats, but from a pure talent perspective, I'd take Burks and Higgins.
Click to expand...

Higgins has 44 total games played
SD has 43 total games played and this season isn't over yet. SD plays in the D league, because while Detroit may not be very good, they have quite a few rather talented guards. Spencer is tearing up the D league.

Also as mentioned, Roberson is a starter for OKC. 152 games played, averaging 21min per game.
 
seattlebuff said:
A depressing read really ...
  • Remember all those wins over ranked opponents 4-5 years ago? Distant memories.
  • CU's peak was with guys Tad didn't recruit. Plain and simple.
  • This whole hoops "rise and fall of attendance" thing is just emblematic of sports culture in Boulder and why its so difficult to win there, and attract top-tier coaching and athletic talent. There is just an HUGE swath of students that could not give a **** about CU athletics. Once you get outside the Greek scene, nobody cares. When you combine the high percentage of hippies and alternative sports junkies (bikers/climbers/skiers, etc.), with the ultra progressive Boulder residents (read: generally not into conventional sports), it's a recipe for lukewarm support at best. Only when the team is ranked or close to ranked will there be big crowds. The culture of support for CU sports is just not there like it is for the vast majority of power conference schools. Just look at the dwindling activity on the boards and comment sections around the web. And if Boulder was 30 minutes further from Denver? Holy ****, we'd be at the bottom of the league in attendance for sure.
Click to expand...
hey man I've also endured a winter that has already broken the historical rain record and we still have about a month left! wow man it SUCKS. that said, quit taking it out on the rest of us by saying stupid **** like this in every post. thank you.
 
Shldr2Shldr said:
Higgins has 44 total games played
SD has 43 total games played and this season isn't over yet. SD plays in the D league, because while Detroit may not be very good, they have quite a few rather talented guards. Spencer is tearing up the D league.

Also as mentioned, Roberson is a starter for OKC. 152 games played, averaging 21min per game.
Click to expand...

I'm talking about pure college production when I put Burks and Higgins ahead. But since we're on the subject ... of course Spencer will surpass Higgins' NBA production. But to this point, he hasn't really. The Pistons just traded away Jennings for two forwards. Why wasn't Spencer immediately called up? Maybe they're truly giving him development minutes down there. Remains to be seen.

As for Roberson, loved him as a Buff, he's a great defender and hard worker, which is why he's a starter for them. But how many NBA guys averaging 5ppg and 3rpg in 21mpg continue to start?
 
seattlebuff said:
I'm talking about pure college production when I put Burks and Higgins ahead. But since we're on the subject ... of course Spencer will surpass Higgins' NBA production. But to this point, he hasn't really. The Pistons just traded away Jennings for two forwards. Why wasn't Spencer immediately called up? Maybe they're truly giving him development minutes down there. Remains to be seen.

As for Roberson, loved him as a Buff, he's a great defender and hard worker, which is why he's a starter for them. But how many NBA guys averaging 5ppg and 3rpg in 21mpg continue to start?
Click to expand...

1) you made the point of comparing Higgin's NBA career to spencer's. I was following that scenario.
2) Roberson does a lot on the defensive end that are not measured in stats. He is an elite level defender.
 
I honestly feel that CU's peak as a program - not in terms of NCAA tourney success or fan support - was on January 5, 2014 when they beat Oregon and moved into the top 15.
 
seattlebuff said:
We didn't play a single ranked opponent that year until UNLV in the tourney (yes, I know we won ...)

IMO, our best team of the Tad era is the 2010-11 team that got hosed on selection day. 4 wins over ranked opponents that year, something we haven't come close to duplicating since. Burks and Higgins (not his recruits, right??) were the best talent we've had in the past 10 years, and better than any of the guys on your list above. I'd put them ahead of Spencer, who might have surpassed them but with the injury, we'll never really know. Why is Spencer still languishing in the D league with a sub par Detroit team? To this point, Higgins played more games in the NBA. Roberson was great for us, and has surprisingly held on with OKC despite poor stats, but from a pure talent perspective, I'd take Burks and Higgins.
Click to expand...

I contemplated simply writing this is the logic of someone who thinks winning the NIT is better than just making the dance, but lets go a little deeper.

You are telling me a team
That was 24-14
That went 8-8 in league play
4 wins over ranked opponents
That finished fifth in the league
That went to the NIT


Should be considered more successful than a team that:
Went 11-7 In league play
Also finished 5th in the league
1 win over a ranked opponent
Won the conference tournament
Went to the NCAA
Won a game in the NCAA
Was 24-12


This team (10/11) then should be considered more successful because it beat 3 ranked teams, despite finishing lower in any measurable other category of actual team performance; also because of the talent of two players as defined by their NCAA careers cross referenced by games played in the NBA - Burks who is a beast and well respected. A player Tad had to convince to stay (you could twist that into recruited if you were Tini, I won't). Higgins - who you'd take over Dinwiddie as a superior talent proven by the fact he played 1 more game in the league than Spencer has so far, ignoring that in wins, losses and titles Spencer handily out performed Higgins.

Fwiw
Spencer in the league:
Drafted 38th
43 Games
1 start
544 minutes played
185 points scored
57 RB
157 Assists

Higgins in the league:
Drafted D League
44 Games
0 Starts
455 Minutes played
167 points scored
38 RB
41 assists

really though is is just a long winded way of saying two things:

1.) But..... NIT.
2.) I am sorry you find so little just in the team you root for.
 
StormTrooper said:
I honestly feel that CU's peak as a program - not in terms of NCAA tourney success or fan support - was on January 5, 2014 when they beat Oregon and moved into the top 15.
Click to expand...

Wouldn't disagree with that, but the Spencer injury made that season a "what if" scenario. Sure, we might have gone on a crazy run in the dance, and then for sure, that would be the peak. But plenty of teams have started 13-2 and then collapsed. We don't know. I'm evaluating where we were at the end of the season. the year we got snubbed I still think was our best team. We missed the NIT final by one point that year ... I think we could have made the Sweet 16 if we hadn't gotten hosed.
 
seattlebuff said:
Wouldn't disagree with that, but the Spencer injury made that season a "what if" scenario. Sure, we might have gone on a crazy run in the dance, and then for sure, that would be the peak. But plenty of teams have started 13-2 and then collapsed. We don't know. I'm evaluating where we were at the end of the season. the year we got snubbed I still think was our best team. We missed the NIT final by one point that year ... I think we could have made the Sweet 16 if we hadn't gotten hosed.
Click to expand...
Well VCU got to the final four that year and we would probably have been playing the same teams they did because the consensus seemed to be that they were put in the spot that we would have been put in.
 
absinthe said:
I contemplated simply writing this is the logic of someone who thinks winning the NIT is better than just making the dance, but lets go a little deeper.

You are telling me a team
That was 24-14
That went 8-8 in league play
4 wins over ranked opponents
That finished fifth in the league
That went to the NIT


Should be considered more successful than a team that:
Went 11-7 In league play
Also finished 5th in the league
1 win over a ranked opponent
Won the conference tournament
Went to the NCAA
Won a game in the NCAA
Was 24-12


This team (10/11) then should be considered more successful because it beat 3 ranked teams, despite finishing lower in any measurable other category of actual team performance; also because of the talent of two players as defined by their NCAA careers cross referenced by games played in the NBA - Burks who is a beast and well respected. A player Tad had to convince to stay (you could twist that into recruited if you were Tini, I won't). Higgins - who you'd take over Dinwiddie as a superior talent proven by the fact he played 1 more game in the league than Spencer has so far, ignoring that in wins, losses and titles Spencer handily out performed Higgins.

Fwiw
Spencer in the league:
Drafted 38th
43 Games
1 start
544 minutes played
185 points scored
57 RB
157 Assists

Higgins in the league:
Drafted D League
44 Games
0 Starts
455 Minutes played
167 points scored
38 RB
41 assists

really though is is just a long winded way of saying two things:

1.) But..... NIT.
2.) I am sorry you find so little just in the team you root for.
Click to expand...

As you did last year at some point, you're confusing me with someone else. I've never once stated that going to the NIT is better than the NCAA for a program. That is completely unhinged, anyone that believes that is off their rocker.

I'm saying that the 2010/11 team that got hosed and went to the NIT (coming out of the Big12 with 5 ranked teams) was better than the 11/12 team that got to the dance only by winning the Pac12 tourney ... the league was awful that year. Two bids to the NCAA. Yeah, we went 11-7 but we didn't play a single ranked opponent in the regular season.

Conference records don't mean **** except in the context of the season in which you're talking.
 
seattlebuff said:
As you did last year at some point, you're confusing me with someone else. I've never once stated that going to the NIT is better than the NCAA for a program. That is completely unhinged, anyone that believes that is off their rocker.

I'm saying that the 2010/11 team that got hosed and went to the NIT (coming out of the Big12 with 5 ranked teams) was better than the 11/12 team that got to the dance only by winning the Pac12 tourney ... the league was awful that year. Two bids to the NCAA. Yeah, we went 11-7 but we didn't play a single ranked opponent in the regular season.

Conference records don't mean **** except in the context of the season in which you're talking.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, as of Selection Sunday that team had the #64 RPI and had played a non-conference SOS ranked #273. Too many bad losses and too many cupcakes on that schedule despite some really good wins. https://rpiarchive.ncaa.org/Stats Library/2011 Final Nitty Gritty by RPI.pdf
 
StormTrooper said:
Well VCU got to the final four that year and we would probably have been playing the same teams they did because the consensus seemed to be that they were put in the spot that we would have been put in.
Click to expand...

As if being left out wasn't bad enough, sitting here in VA surrounded by VCU mania was the WORST
 
seattlebuff said:
I'm saying that the 2010/11 team that got hosed and went to the NIT (coming out of the Big12 with 5 ranked teams) was better than the 11/12 team that got to the dance only by winning the Pac12 tourney ... the league was awful that year. Two bids to the NCAA.
Click to expand...
My recollection, which I confirmed, is that the PAC12 tourney champs were the only NCAA tourney team that year. Several others went to the NIT.
 
aghcsm said:
My recollection, which I confirmed, is that the PAC12 tourney champs were the only NCAA tourney team that year. Several others went to the NIT.
Click to expand...

You're right, further emphasizing my point ... Absinthe touting our 11-7 conf record that year doesn't hold much water.
 
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