Ranking the schools all-time....

[Buff fanatic]

So, I was discussing with a buddy today the best football programs
in the Big 12, all-time. Without doing any research other than being
a fan, heres my list (probably lots of incorrect "facts").

1-OU- Hard to argue. 7 national titles, something like 5 Heisman
winners, countless consensus All-Americans, great fan base (not
great in the sense of like "lets hang out", but, in the show up and
spend money sense)
Knocks: Not many. They re-load every year. Hell, they lost their
prize QB, replaced him with a WR and won the Big 12. Nice. Guess the
knock is bowl games. And being d-bags.

2-UNL Tradition. Blah, blah, blah.

Knocks-Everything. Specifically-they like the ****. And spanking ass since its the closest I could find.:asskicking:

3- Texas 4 National titles, 3 Heisman Trophy winners (okay, i made
that up...educated guess), countless All Americans, rabid (though
dickish....see:Rusty) fan base, great recruiting, coaching greats.

Knock: Werent in a great conference until the Big 12, OU's bitch.
Futures bright though. Damn good program.

4- CU- A&M fans would argue that Im being a homer here, but, I'd
argue their school is a cult, so, whatev. National title, bunch of
conference titles, Heisman winners, 61 Consensus All-Americans,
tradition (Ralphie,flat irons, etc).

Knock- Worst fan base of the bunch, no question. I love us, but, we
dont show up.

5-A&M National title, conference title, tradion (Kyle Field, 12th
man, Lassie or whatever the hell they call that dog, midnight yell,
etc)

Knock- Think they're way better then they are, what have you done
for me lately? Over-rated home field advantage, seem to lose a game
or 2 there a year and fans dont sell it out if it's not a big game.
And I insist its a cult.

6- Tech Lots of recent success, pretty good fan base, 2 pretty
good coaches in Dykes and Leach (both probably spelled wrong,
competitive in the wicked Big 12 South.

Knocks- Lubbock. Facilities.

7- Oklahoma State Heisman trophy winner, GREAT facilities, recent
success.

Knock-One rabid fan (see Pickens,Boone) otherwise a pretty apathetic
fan base, little brother of OU, orange sh*t everywhere.

8- Missouri Historically pretty good, recently pretty good. Nice
location, nice fan base.

Knock-Just kind of there. Nothing really stands out. Plus, i dont
like them

9-12. Running out of time. Just a pick em. Id go Kansas, Kansas
State, Iowa State, Baylor.

Thoughts?

 

[buffwings]

that's about right.

 

[Buffnik]

I'm sure this was already posted, but here's how it shook out when ESPN did their all-time most prestigious program rankings:

1. Oklahoma
5. Nebraska
7. Texas
20. Texas A&M
22. Colorado
36. Missouri
42. Texas Tech
63. Baylor
65. Oklahoma State
69. Kansas
76. Kansas State
114. Iowa State

On aTm, a telling stat about how their history is much more impressive than their recent performance: haven't finished in the final AP top 5 since 1956.

On CU, something that doesn't get enough consideration is that no one else in the top 25 has had to play 2 of the top 5 programs every flippin' year for most of its history... and CU compounded it by playing a monster non-conference schedule.

ESPN Link

 

[Buff fanatic]

I'm sure this was already posted, but here's how it shook out when ESPN did their all-time most prestigious program rankings:

63. Baylor


.

WOW. I guess I really havent given Baylor's past enough credit. ****.

 

[JimmyBuff]

I'm sure this was already posted, but here's how it shook out when ESPN did their all-time most prestigious program rankings:

1. Oklahoma
5. Nebraska
7. Texas
20. Texas A&M
22. Colorado
36. Missouri
42. Texas Tech
63. Baylor
65. Oklahoma State
69. Kansas
76. Kansas State
114. Iowa State

On aTm, a telling stat about how their history is much more impressive than their recent performance: haven't finished in the final AP top 5 since 1956.

On CU, something that doesn't get enough consideration is that no one else in the top 25 has had to play 2 of the top 5 programs every flippin' year for most of its history... and CU compounded it by playing a monster non-conference schedule.

ESPN Link

I've never got the fascination about A&M.. They never seem to be elite and the few years that they are it is because they are cheating..

I think they get bumped up because the Bear coached there..


Agree with OU number one.. Great football tradition with 3 elite coaches (Wilkinson, Switzer and Stoops) of their time. I assume USC was 2 and Notre Dame was 3?

 

[Buff fanatic]

:yeahthat:

 

[Buffnik]

Agree with OU number one.. Great football tradition with 3 elite coaches (Wilkinson, Switzer and Stoops) of their time. I assume USC was 2 and Notre Dame was 3?

Close. USC 2, Ohio State 3, Notre Dame 4.

Notre Dame actually got screwed by the point system a bit. A big consideration was post-season success. ND didn't participate in the bowl system for a big chunk of its history and only has 29 bowl game appearances. The other top 5 programs all have 40 or more bowls to their credit.

 

[Unleash Hell]

Where the **** is Alabama and Michigan?

 

[sackman]

I think CU and A&M have historically been just about even, so one being #20 and the other being #22 isn't too far off as far as I'm concerned. CU is either #4 or #5 in the Big 12, all time, and that's probably about right. A&M throws one helluva lot more money at their athletic department than we do, though.

 

[Buffnik]

Where the **** is Alabama and Michigan?

They sandwich Texas - Alabama at 6, Michigan at 8.

 

[JimmyBuff]

Close. USC 2, Ohio State 3, Notre Dame 4.

Notre Dame actually got screwed by the point system a bit. A big consideration was post-season success. ND didn't participate in the bowl system for a big chunk of its history and only has 29 bowl game appearances. The other top 5 programs all have 40 or more bowls to their credit.

I'd probably go with Alabama four..

1. OU
2. USC
3. ND
4. Alabama
5. Ohio State or Michigan..

Then Texas, Penn State, Miami and Nebraska(not in that order) to fill out the Top 10..

 

[Buffnik]

Here's how they did the rankings:

Explaining the Prestige Rankings
By Chris Fallica, Nick Loucks and Harold Shelton
ESPN Research

Who is No. 1? That debate rages weekly during each college football season, and often long after the season is over and the trophies have been handed out. The debate is as much a part of the annual ritual as the touchdowns, fight songs and bowl games.

If you think that process can spark a debate, try ranking each FBS team's all-time position in college football history.

But the ESPN Research Department devised a plan to settle the argument. Its system lets the numbers do the talking.

ESPN's Prestige Rankings are a numerical method of ranking the best FBS college football programs since the 1936 season. Point values were assigned for certain successes (win a national title, earn 25 points) and failures (get your program banned from the postseason, lose two points). The research department ran all the numbers through the computer to come up with the No. 1 program (and Nos. 2 to 119) of the past 73 seasons.

Why start with the 1936 season?
The AP poll was introduced that season, making it the first time the longest-standing news organization in the United States began ranking teams and crowning a national champion. Starting in 1937, the NCAA began recognizing "major college programs" (now known as the FBS). To accrue points, a program had to be recognized as one of these major programs by the NCAA. Those years are listed on pages 426 and 427 of this year's NCAA Football Record Book.
Explanation of the scoring system
A national title earns the biggest point value, but berths in major bowls, Heisman winners, bowl wins, conference record and top-5 finishes in the AP poll all were big point-getters, too. Conversely, postseason bans, probation and television bans are assigned negative point values. Here's a complete breakdown of the scoring system:
National title: 25 points
The full 25 points were awarded to any team that won one of the two major poll titles (AP, UPI or coaches) that season. No season had more than two title winners.

Berth in one of the major bowls: 10
Major bowls were defined as every Rose, Orange and Sugar bowl since '36; every Cotton Bowl from 1940 to '94 (i.e., from when it started taking the SWC champ until the Cotton was booted from the Bowl Alliance); and every Fiesta Bowl since the '86 season when the historic No. 1 Miami-vs.-No. 2 Penn State game changed the landscape of college football.

Major bowl win: 10

Best win/loss record in conference regular season: 10
These points were awarded to every team that had at least a share of the best overall record in a major football conference, regardless of divisional alignment. Independent schools were awarded the bonus if they were ranked ahead of at least three of the big six conference champions in a final regular-season poll that season.

Final AP top-5 finish: 10
All final poll points were awarded for the final poll put out by the AP that season.

Heisman winner: 8
Final AP top 6-10 finish: 6
Conference title championship-game bonus: 5
This bonus was given to a school only if it hadn't already gotten credit for having the best record in its conference's regular season.

Final AP top 11-25 finish: 4
Bowl appearance: 3
This was awarded for any NCAA-sanctioned bowl, and would be added to the previously mentioned major bowl points.

Bowl win: 3
10-win season: 2
Week as AP No. 1: 2
Win over AP No. 1: 1
Each consensus All-American: 1
First-round NFL draft pick (since '70): 1
Losing season: minus-2

There were lots of variables for when a school was handed penalties by the NCAA for infractions. Those penalties were graded as such:
Each year of television ban: minus-1
Each year of postseason ban: minus-2
Each year of overall probation: minus-1
Each year of financial-aid penalty: minus-1
Each year of recruiting penalties: minus-1
Each penalty of "show cause action:" minus-2

 

[4DemBuffs]

Here's how they did the rankings:

Explaining the Prestige Rankings
By Chris Fallica, Nick Loucks and Harold Shelton
ESPN Research

Who is No. 1? That debate rages weekly during each college football season, and often long after the season is over and the trophies have been handed out. The debate is as much a part of the annual ritual as the touchdowns, fight songs and bowl games.

If you think that process can spark a debate, try ranking each FBS team's all-time position in college football history.

But the ESPN Research Department devised a plan to settle the argument. Its system lets the numbers do the talking.

ESPN's Prestige Rankings are a numerical method of ranking the best FBS college football programs since the 1936 season. Point values were assigned for certain successes (win a national title, earn 25 points) and failures (get your program banned from the postseason, lose two points). The research department ran all the numbers through the computer to come up with the No. 1 program (and Nos. 2 to 119) of the past 73 seasons.

Why start with the 1936 season?
The AP poll was introduced that season, making it the first time the longest-standing news organization in the United States began ranking teams and crowning a national champion. Starting in 1937, the NCAA began recognizing "major college programs" (now known as the FBS). To accrue points, a program had to be recognized as one of these major programs by the NCAA. Those years are listed on pages 426 and 427 of this year's NCAA Football Record Book.
Explanation of the scoring system
A national title earns the biggest point value, but berths in major bowls, Heisman winners, bowl wins, conference record and top-5 finishes in the AP poll all were big point-getters, too. Conversely, postseason bans, probation and television bans are assigned negative point values. Here's a complete breakdown of the scoring system:
National title: 25 points
The full 25 points were awarded to any team that won one of the two major poll titles (AP, UPI or coaches) that season. No season had more than two title winners.

Berth in one of the major bowls: 10
Major bowls were defined as every Rose, Orange and Sugar bowl since '36; every Cotton Bowl from 1940 to '94 (i.e., from when it started taking the SWC champ until the Cotton was booted from the Bowl Alliance); and every Fiesta Bowl since the '86 season when the historic No. 1 Miami-vs.-No. 2 Penn State game changed the landscape of college football.

Major bowl win: 10

Best win/loss record in conference regular season: 10
These points were awarded to every team that had at least a share of the best overall record in a major football conference, regardless of divisional alignment. Independent schools were awarded the bonus if they were ranked ahead of at least three of the big six conference champions in a final regular-season poll that season.

Final AP top-5 finish: 10
All final poll points were awarded for the final poll put out by the AP that season.

Heisman winner: 8
Final AP top 6-10 finish: 6
Conference title championship-game bonus: 5
This bonus was given to a school only if it hadn't already gotten credit for having the best record in its conference's regular season.

Final AP top 11-25 finish: 4
Bowl appearance: 3
This was awarded for any NCAA-sanctioned bowl, and would be added to the previously mentioned major bowl points.

Bowl win: 3
10-win season: 2
Week as AP No. 1: 2
Win over AP No. 1: 1
Each consensus All-American: 1
First-round NFL draft pick (since '70): 1
Losing season: minus-2

There were lots of variables for when a school was handed penalties by the NCAA for infractions. Those penalties were graded as such:
Each year of television ban: minus-1
Each year of postseason ban: minus-2
Each year of overall probation: minus-1
Each year of financial-aid penalty: minus-1
Each year of recruiting penalties: minus-1
Each penalty of "show cause action:" minus-2

so, alabama was in the lead by about 200 points over any other school, then they applied the penalties and 'bama is 6?

sounds about right.

 

[Mick Ronson]

WOW. I guess I really havent given Baylor's past enough credit. ****.

Baylor had some good teams under Grant Teaff in the old SWC. they won the conference at least once. but, other than that.

i thought OSU would be higher. they've had some decent runs with Jimmy Johnson, Pat Jones, Simmons had a couple good teams, Lester Miles. no clue on Tech's history, i remember Spike Dykes but that's about it. i didn't follow the SWC much as a kid outside remembering the Pony Express, the Klingler/Ware Houston teams and such. and my jr high and high school teams ran the Houston Veer offense.

Missouri seems like an all-time underachiever.

 

[Coloradosker]

Baylor had some good teams under Grant Teaff in the old SWC. they won the conference at least once. but, other than that.

i thought OSU would be higher. they've had some decent runs with Jimmy Johnson, Pat Jones, Simmons had a couple good teams, Lester Miles. no clue on Tech's history, i remember Spike Dykes but that's about it. i didn't follow the SWC much as a kid outside remembering the Pony Express, the Klingler/Ware Houston teams and such. and my jr high and high school teams ran the Houston Veer offense.

Missouri seems like an all-time underachiever.

Tech had some decent teams in the 70's and Leach's run since 2000 has been pretty impressive. As a team, they are above .500 all-time. OSU was truly awful until a brief run in the 80's. They dropped back into the abyss in the 90's and didn't start getting decent again until 02. They've had some great players, just not great teams.

 

[BuffMania]

My Big12 Rankings:
1. OU
2. NU
3. UT
4. CU
5. A&M
6. Mizzou
7. OSU
8. TT
9. BU
10. KU
11. KSU
12. ISU

 

[Mick Ronson]

interesting thing, since the formation of the Big XII....every conference team with the exception of ISU and BU have been a BCS bowl level team or Cotton/Holiday Bowl type team (which is nothing to sneeze at...Cotton is the #2 Big XII and Holiday matches you up with Pac #2...legit top 15 type team to qualify for either bowl most years).

OU-BCS
NU-BCS
UT-BCS
CU-BCS (Fiesta)
A&M (Holiday, Cotton)
Mizzou (Cotton)
OSU (Holiday)
TT (Cotton)
BU-X
KU-BCS (Orange)
KSU (Cotton)
ISU-X

i doubt the SEC, Pac 10, or Big 11 has that kind of balance over the time period.

 

[The Guest]

interesting thing, since the formation of the Big XII....every conference team with the exception of ISU and BU have been a BCS bowl level team or Cotton/Holiday Bowl type team (which is nothing to sneeze at...Cotton is the #2 Big XII and Holiday matches you up with Pac #2...legit top 15 type team to qualify for either bowl most years).

OU-BCS
NU-BCS
UT-BCS
CU-BCS (Fiesta)
A&M (Holiday, Cotton)
Mizzou (Cotton)
OSU (Holiday)
TT (Cotton)
BU-X
KU-BCS (Orange)
KSU (Cotton)
ISU-X

i doubt the SEC, Pac 10, or Big 11 has that kind of balance over the time period.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but KSU beat the stuffing out of OU (2003ish?) to win the Big XII Championship, and therefore would have played in a BCS Bowl as Big XII champs.

 

[Coloradosker]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but KSU beat the stuffing out of OU (2003ish?) to win the Big XII Championship, and therefore would have played in a BCS Bowl as Big XII champs.

KSU played in the Fiesta bowl that season as the big XII rep in 03, losing to tOSU 35-28. And though it wasn't technically called the BCS they also beat Syracuse in the Fiesta in 97. aTm, as Big XII champ in 98 played in the Sugar Bowl, also losing to tOSU. His point is a good one though. We have had a pretty balanced league over the years.

 

[The Guest]

KSU played in the Fiesta bowl that season as the big XII rep in 03, losing to tOSU 35-28. And though it wasn't technically called the BCS they also beat Syracuse in the Fiesta in 97. aTm, as Big XII champ in 98 played in the Sugar Bowl, also losing to tOSU. His point is a good one though. We have had a pretty balanced league over the years.

It's a great point. I was doing my best to bolster it. Thanks for the info. I remember all of that now.

 

[Mick Ronson]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but KSU beat the stuffing out of OU (2003ish?) to win the Big XII Championship, and therefore would have played in a BCS Bowl as Big XII champs.

you are correct, sir.

edit: and also Coloradosker's reminder about ATM beating the Bishop KSU team. i remembered that game when i was posting before but didn't follow the logic to it's conclusion, obviously.

so, with 7, over half the league has played in a BCS bowl since the formation of the League. and 3 of the remaining 5 have played in the Cotton or Holiday bowl.

 

[dyemeduke]

I really don't understand how OSU is not higher. Barry, Thurman, amongst others - they're not great, but they have a better historical program than Baylor in my opinion.

 

[Coloradosker]

I really don't understand how OSU is not higher. Barry, Thurman, amongst others - they're not great, but they have a better historical program than Baylor in my opinion.

Bottom line, they don't base it on players, they base it on the success of programs. They had success when those guys were there, made it to a few Holiday Bowls, but in between they had a lot of 3 and 4 win seasons.