Title IX

[The Alabaster Yak]

If Luke and DBT can make new threads for anything they want, so can I...

I heard an interesting thought/question brought up on the radio today about Title IX. Football is considered a male sport and is therefore classified as such when it comes to the Title IX, but should it be considered a male sport? Women are eligible and have the same opportunity to play football in both high school and college as men do, but they simply aren't as good as men at playing football.

 

[Big Jim]

Yes, it should be considered a male sport.

 

[Deleted member 807]

"Katie was a girl, and not only was she a girl, she was terrible, OK? There's no other way to say it. She couldn't kick the ball through the uprights." - Gary Barnett as celebrated in the FauxTscheck quote collection about women in football.

 

[The Alabaster Yak]

Yes, it should be considered a male sport.

So should women be eligible to play in high school and college?

 

[MtnBuff]

Yes it should be considered a male sport, there are effectively zero women getting scholarships for it so how can you look at it as co-ed.

They do need though to recognize that football is the sport that in many schools pays the bills, it generates the money and interest that allow non-revenue sports for both men and women to exist. Instead of gutting men's sports in the name of "balance" football should be allowed to stand outside the evaluation of equal opportunity.

A better compromise would be to include spirit squads in the calculations as long as a significant part of what they do relates to competitive events. Do they participate in conference, regional, national spirit competitions? If so allow the off-set of their numbers against football.

Currently spirit isn't included. Saw a TV report on it and it is to the benefit of the "Cheer" companies that provide the gear and run the competitions but end up costing schools a lot more and more importantly result in less effective oversight and more danger to the participants. At most schools the participants don't have access to academic support and more importantly the athletic department sports medicine resources.

 

[CitizenKane]

Speaking of women and football. We need an allbuffs day at a Freeze game.

 

[Duff Man]

So should women be eligible to play in high school and college?

Since it has zero effect on men playing the sport, sure.

The opportunities for women are practically zero as it is, even if they technically are equals.

 

[The Alabaster Yak]

Since it has zero effect on men playing the sport, sure.

The opportunities for women are practically zero as it is, even if they technically are equals.

Forget the practicality of the issue. I am well aware of it. There is a legal argument here, and that's why I bring it up.

 

[Duff Man]

Forget the practicality of the issue. I am well aware of it. There is a legal argument here, and that's why I bring it up.

Which is why it is highly likely in the best interest for proponents of football to enjoy the status quo.

 

[sackman]

I think they could leave football as-is but treat dance teams and cheer squads as varsity athletes. Those are similar to football in that they are typically populated by one sex. In this case - females. That would effectively level the playing field while expanding scholarship opportunities for females.

 

[Buffnik]

In my ideal dream world, football would be exempted from Title IX calculations and there would be a mandatory equality of scholarships for all other athletics programs.

But that's not going to happen.

Here's the current table for CU sports:

CU Sport​	Men's​	Women's​
Basketball​	13.0​	15.0​
Cross Country/ T&F​	12.6​	18​
Football​	85.0​	0​
Golf​	4.5​	6.0​
Lacrosse​	0​	12.0​
Skiing​	6.3​	7.0​
Soccer​	0​	14.0​
Tennis​	0​	8.0​
Volleyball​	0​	12.0​
TOTAL​	121.4​	92.0​

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

So, CU is 29.4 scholarships out of balance even with the addition of WLAX and the drop of MTEN.

I have to believe the goal at CU is to get that number to equality.

1. First & easiest move to get this real close is to add Women's Rowing (20.0 scholarships) and we're at a 9.4 gap.
2. Add Women's Rugby (12.0) and Men's Soccer (9.9) and we're at a 7.3 gap.
3. Add Beach Volleyball (6.0) and Men's Tennis (4.5) and we're at a 5.8 gap.
4. Add Gymnastics (12.0) and Men's Lacrosse (12.6) and we're at a 6.4 gap.
5. Add Women's Triathlon (6.5) and we are now in total balance (actually 0.1 in favor of Women's sports).

In total, this added 56.5 Women's Scholarships and 27.0 Men's scholarships. I think it would add a lot that people would enjoy as fans while also including some sports in which CU has a chance to be national contenders. None of that requires a new facility, but much of it would justify a Field Sports Complex that is in the works (at least as an idea) anyway. Budget to do something like this is probably in the range of $8-12 million a year with an assumption that each sport would lose $1MM-$1.5MM a year.

Last, since I know people are interested, once we'd be in balance we could look at some of the real big long-term dreams:

Baseball (11.7) & Softball (12.0) keep the balance.
Ice Hockey (18.0 for both Men & Women) keeps the balance.
Swimming & Diving (9.9 Men/ 14.0 Women) could even allow Men's Volleyball (4.5) while keeping a close balance.

 

[SINKRATZ]

Women playing football?? They don't even have slongs.

 

[DeNiro]

Forget the practicality of the issue. I am well aware of it. There is a legal argument here, and that's why I bring it up.

If less than 1% of players are a certain gender than can you really make that argument? Yes you will argue with whatever anyone posts like an idot, we get it, that's you. Yes we all know that women are eligible to play if they earn the scholarship or choose to walk-on.

Instead of taking the easy road and try to come up with an idiotic plan of reclassifying what sport is considered under title IX, why don't you brainstorm ways for the university to raise funds to sustain the addition of sports?

To sum up, you're a dumbass

 

[Highlander]

In my ideal dream world, football would be exempted from Title IX calculations and there would be a mandatory equality of scholarships for all other athletics programs.

But that's not going to happen.

Here's the current table for CU sports:

CU Sport​	Men's​	Women's​
Basketball​	13.0​	15.0​
Cross Country/ T&F​	12.6​	18​
Football​	85.0​	0​
Golf​	4.5​	6.0​
Lacrosse​	0​	12.0​
Skiing​	6.3​	7.0​
Soccer​	0​	14.0​
Tennis​	0​	8.0​
Volleyball​	0​	12.0​
TOTAL​	121.4​	92.0​

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

So, CU is 29.4 scholarships out of balance even with the addition of WLAX and the drop of MTEN.

I have to believe the goal at CU is to get that number to equality.

1. First & easiest move to get this real close is to add Women's Rowing (20.0 scholarships) and we're at a 9.4 gap.
2. Add Women's Rugby (12.0) and Men's Soccer (9.9) and we're at a 7.3 gap.
3. Add Beach Volleyball (6.0) and Men's Tennis (4.5) and we're at a 5.8 gap.
4. Add Gymnastics (12.0) and Men's Lacrosse (12.6) and we're at a 6.4 gap.
5. Add Women's Triathlon (6.5) and we are now in total balance (actually 0.1 in favor of Women's sports).

In total, this added 56.5 Women's Scholarships and 27.0 Men's scholarships. I think it would add a lot that people would enjoy as fans while also including some sports in which CU has a chance to be national contenders. None of that requires a new facility, but much of it would justify a Field Sports Complex that is in the works (at least as an idea) anyway. Budget to do something like this is probably in the range of $8-12 million a year with an assumption that each sport would lose $1MM-$1.5MM a year.

Last, since I know people are interested, once we'd be in balance we could look at some of the real big long-term dreams:

Baseball (11.7) & Softball (12.0) keep the balance.
Ice Hockey (18.0 for both Men & Women) keeps the balance.
Swimming & Diving (9.9 Men/ 14.0 Women) could even allow Men's Volleyball (4.5) while keeping a close balance.

Or just add the requisite women's sports to get to scholarship parity and put the funds for your suggested men's sports in to the football coaches salary pool, which is underfunded by more than a little at this point.

 

[Buffnik]

Or just add the requisite women's sports to get to scholarship parity and put the funds for your suggested men's sports in to the football coaches salary pool, which is underfunded by more than a little at this point.

This is why driving football revenue is the main focus (secondarily, men's basketball). It's the only way to make enough revenue to do all that needs to be done. So, yeah, fund football to wherever it needs to be in order to get the ROI. But CU can be so much more for its athletic department than the current mix plus women's rugby, beach & tri. CU really needs soccer & lacrosse for the men at some point.

 

[The Alabaster Yak]

If less than 1% of players are a certain gender than can you really make that argument? Yes you will argue with whatever anyone posts like an idot, we get it, that's you. Yes we all know that women are eligible to play if they earn the scholarship or choose to walk-on.

Instead of taking the easy road and try to come up with an idiotic plan of reclassifying what sport is considered under title IX, why don't you brainstorm ways for the university to raise funds to sustain the addition of sports?

To sum up, you're a dumbass

Where's the hostility coming from? I heard a legitimate legal point on the radio that I thought was relevant. Solid value add here, **** face.

 

[AllStarBuffs]

If less than 1% of players are a certain gender than can you really make that argument? Yes you will argue with whatever anyone posts like an idot, we get it, that's you. Yes we all know that women are eligible to play if they earn the scholarship or choose to walk-on.

Instead of taking the easy road and try to come up with an idiotic plan of reclassifying what sport is considered under title IX, why don't you brainstorm ways for the university to raise funds to sustain the addition of sports?

To sum up, you're a dumbass

This, OP isn't the sharpest tool in the shed

 

[pcbuff]

Yes it should be considered a male sport, there are effectively zero women getting scholarships for it so how can you look at it as co-ed.

They do need though to recognize that football is the sport that in many schools pays the bills, it generates the money and interest that allow non-revenue sports for both men and women to exist. Instead of gutting men's sports in the name of "balance" football should be allowed to stand outside the evaluation of equal opportunity.

A better compromise would be to include spirit squads in the calculations as long as a significant part of what they do relates to competitive events. Do they participate in conference, regional, national spirit competitions? If so allow the off-set of their numbers against football.

Currently spirit isn't included. Saw a TV report on it and it is to the benefit of the "Cheer" companies that provide the gear and run the competitions but end up costing schools a lot more and more importantly result in less effective oversight and more danger to the participants.

I think the idea that cheerleaders aren't athletes by title nine is wrong. They are taking big risks in their routines as evidenced by the concussions and broken bones. I also know several girls who were athletic and offered rowing scholarships who never rowed before college. Title nine has some silly consequences while doing an overall good in my opinion.

 

[DiggerBuffs]

Ummmm no. Grasping.

 

[Buffnik]

I think the idea that cheerleaders aren't athletes by title nine is wrong. They are taking big risks in their routines as evidenced by the concussions and broken bones. I also know several girls who were athletic and offered rowing scholarships who never rowed before college. Title nine has some silly consequences while doing an overall good in my opinion.

Cheer is a sport. Only a matter of time before it's recognized. Stumbling block, it seems, is to become "genuine" through an NCAA-sponsored championship.

From December 2016:
A common question when addressing Title IX is whether cheerleading is a sport. Colleges and universities have argued that cheerleading is a sport for the purposes of Title IX and, specifically, have argued competitive cheer teams are engaged in intercollegiate athletic competition. In Biediger v. Quinnipiac University, the United States District Court, District of Connecticut (“District Court”) ruled and the Second Circuit affirmed that the thirty (30) roster positions for competitive cheerleading members could not be counted for Title IX purposes because the activity did not “yet” afford women genuine participation opportunities in a varsity sport. The District Court stated “acro lacks what every other varsity men’s team sponsored by Quinnipiac enjoys: the chance to participate in an NCAA-sponsored championship.” The District Court further stated acrobatics and tumbling are not recognized by the NCAA as a sport or an emerging sport.

The characterization of cheerleading as not qualifying as a sport may soon change. In early December 2016, the International Olympic Committee (“IOC”) recognized cheerleading as a sport and granted the International Cheer Union provisional recognition as the governing body of cheerleading. Granting provisional recognition is a step towards cheerleading being offered as an Olympic sport. With the IOC taking a position that cheerleading is a sport, it will be interesting to see whether the NCAA adds competitive cheerleading to the list of emerging sports. Based on the rulings in Biediger v. Quinnipiac University, it appears that the NCAA acknowledging competitive cheerleading as an intercollegiate sport will open the door to counting cheerleading participation opportunities for the purposes of Title IX.

http://www.bgsfirm.com/college-sports-law-blog/will-the-ncaa-consider-cheerleading-a-sport

 

[sackman]

Add dance to cheer and we have our solution. I think there are something like 24 members of the dance team, plus another 16 or so on the cheer squad, with four or five being men.

Provide scholarships there. No additional facilities needed. Immediate title IX equity. Boom.

 

[DiggerBuffs]

@Buffnik That would be a huge positive if it happens. Would Dance then be included? Or only if they have a NCAA recognized championship. That is truly the only co-ed sport.

BTW, what is your prejudice against wrestling? You failed to recognize it in your Title IX Schollie count.

 

[Buffnik]

@Buffnik That would be a huge positive if it happens. Would Dance then be included? Or only if they have a NCAA recognized championship. That is truly the only co-ed sport.

BTW, what is your prejudice against wrestling? You failed to recognize it in your Title IX Schollie count.

I like wrestling. But it's 9.9 scholarships without a women's equivalent. It's a real tough add and Title IX effectively killed it as a college sport.

 

[buffaholic]

As a parent who benefitted from title IX (my oldest got most of her school paid for), it always struck me that Title IX went too far. The pool of prospective NCAA athletes that are women are much less than men. It's MUCH LESS competitive for a woman to land an athletic scholarship.

Using golf as a benchmark as I'm familiar with it:

Many High schools don't field a girls team. In Longmont until very recently, they fielded a "District Team" that played under the Skyline HS flag. They won several state championships a decade ago. Woot! When we'd host the local City Championship, we'd struggle to find 10-15 girls to compete (under 18 years old) whereas we'd sell out quickly on the boys side. 10:1 ratio I'd guess.

 

[Buffnik]

As a parent who benefitted from title IX (my oldest got most of her school paid for), it always struck me that Title IX went too far. The pool of prospective NCAA athletes that are women are much less than men. It's MUCH LESS competitive for a woman to land an athletic scholarship.

Using golf as a benchmark as I'm familiar with it:

Many High schools don't field a girls team. In Longmont until very recently, they fielded a "District Team" that played under the Skyline HS flag. They won several state championships a decade ago. Woot! When we'd host the local City Championship, we'd struggle to find 10-15 girls to compete (under 18 years old) whereas we'd sell out quickly on the boys side. 10:1 ratio I'd guess.

All the more reason for Cheer to be a recognized sport. Thousands upon thousands of girls participate in that sport.

 

[Highlander]

As a parent who benefitted from title IX (my oldest got most of her school paid for), it always struck me that Title IX went too far. The pool of prospective NCAA athletes that are women are much less than men. It's MUCH LESS competitive for a woman to land an athletic scholarship.

Using golf as a benchmark as I'm familiar with it:

Many High schools don't field a girls team. In Longmont until very recently, they fielded a "District Team" that played under the Skyline HS flag. They won several state championships a decade ago. Woot! When we'd host the local City Championship, we'd struggle to find 10-15 girls to compete (under 18 years old) whereas we'd sell out quickly on the boys side. 10:1 ratio I'd guess.

I'm still holding out faint hope this plays to my daughter's advantage with her middling athletic capabilities but just happens to be the tallest girl in her class that has taken up basketball in middle school. She probably isn't going to be tall enough or athletic enough to make enough noise, but she has an outside shot at it just for taking up the interest.

Ultimately, your point is right. It was sort of a weird decision to begin with. The NCAA needs to sanction championships for cheer, dance, and flags - heck - add in marching band competitions while you are at it and pull the pendulum back towards the middle.

 

[MtnBuff]

Cheer is a sport. Only a matter of time before it's recognized. Stumbling block, it seems, is to become "genuine" through an NCAA-sponsored championship.

From December 2016:
A common question when addressing Title IX is whether cheerleading is a sport. Colleges and universities have argued that cheerleading is a sport for the purposes of Title IX and, specifically, have argued competitive cheer teams are engaged in intercollegiate athletic competition. In Biediger v. Quinnipiac University, the United States District Court, District of Connecticut (“District Court”) ruled and the Second Circuit affirmed that the thirty (30) roster positions for competitive cheerleading members could not be counted for Title IX purposes because the activity did not “yet” afford women genuine participation opportunities in a varsity sport. The District Court stated “acro lacks what every other varsity men’s team sponsored by Quinnipiac enjoys: the chance to participate in an NCAA-sponsored championship.” The District Court further stated acrobatics and tumbling are not recognized by the NCAA as a sport or an emerging sport.

The characterization of cheerleading as not qualifying as a sport may soon change. In early December 2016, the International Olympic Committee (“IOC”) recognized cheerleading as a sport and granted the International Cheer Union provisional recognition as the governing body of cheerleading. Granting provisional recognition is a step towards cheerleading being offered as an Olympic sport. With the IOC taking a position that cheerleading is a sport, it will be interesting to see whether the NCAA adds competitive cheerleading to the list of emerging sports. Based on the rulings in Biediger v. Quinnipiac University, it appears that the NCAA acknowledging competitive cheerleading as an intercollegiate sport will open the door to counting cheerleading participation opportunities for the purposes of Title IX.

http://www.bgsfirm.com/college-sports-law-blog/will-the-ncaa-consider-cheerleading-a-sport

The same program I saw that documented the problems in spirit (cheer) in terms of lack of access to sports medicine and other supports in the athletic programs also talked about the resistance to recognizing spirit as a sport.

It appeared that there was a small but very firmly entrenched group in Washington including a couple of US Reps who have their reasons for not including it. Some of them fall into the camp that cheer is "demeaning" and "perpetuates stereotypes of women on the sidelines." Others simply see it as a way to force extra scholarships for women to "make up for" the years when equity wasn't considered.

Both groups seem to fall in the camp of the 1960's-70's radical women's libbers who can't recognize that equal opportunity may mean something different now than it did 40-50 years ago. These people will need to be overcome in order to make the change.

 

[Buffnik]

The same program I saw that documented the problems in spirit (cheer) in terms of lack of access to sports medicine and other supports in the athletic programs also talked about the resistance to recognizing spirit as a sport.

It appeared that there was a small but very firmly entrenched group in Washington including a couple of US Reps who have their reasons for not including it. Some of them fall into the camp that cheer is "demeaning" and "perpetuates stereotypes of women on the sidelines." Others simply see it as a way to force extra scholarships for women to "make up for" the years when equity wasn't considered. It's a major disconnect.

Both groups seem to fall in the camp of the 1960's-70's radical women's libbers who can't recognize that equal opportunity may mean something different now than it did 40-50 years ago. These people will need to be overcome in order to make the change.

Yeah. There's an old school feminism that disrespects and devalues women who want to do things women traditionally did. Modern feminists have a different view: women should be valued for doing whatever they choose to do. If they want to be homemakers instead of businesspeople, awesome and of tremendous value. If they want to cheer instead of playing soccer, awesome and of tremendous value.

 

[AeroBuff99]

If dance is included, then why not marching band? You have to draw the line somewhere. Is dance athletic or artistic? Why should cheer be a sport? If there were to be a sport it should be team acrobatics (athletics), not cheer (look pretty). Ultimately they will have to separate out the spirit squads/dance teams from the competitive acrobatics squads. That is the only way it would work. Also UCA and those other companies are going to have to step aside and let real non-profit governing bodies set rules and standards.

 

[MtnBuff]

Yeah. There's an old school feminism that disrespects and devalues women who want to do things women traditionally did. Modern feminists have a different view: women should be valued for doing whatever they choose to do. If they want to be homemakers instead of businesspeople, awesome and of tremendous value. If they want to cheer instead of playing soccer, awesome and of tremendous value.

Thank you, well stated.

If dance is included, then why not marching band? You have to draw the line somewhere. Is dance athletic or artistic? Why should cheer be a sport? If there were to be a sport it should be team acrobatics (athletics), not cheer (look pretty). Ultimately they will have to separate out the spirit squads/dance teams from the competitive acrobatics squads. That is the only way it would work. Also UCA and those other companies are going to have to step aside and let real non-profit governing bodies set rules and standards.

You do have to draw a line, otherwise you start including things like chess or darts.

That is why you make the definition based on a competitive requirement. A part of their purpose is to perform and support at other athletic events but a significant focus is placed on their competitions and the athletic components of those competitions.

The athletic nature of the activity is clearly demonstrated by the fact that many who would like to do it are eliminated because they don't have the athletic talent to do so. It is also demonstrated by the stresses and strains it puts on the body as demonstrated by the injuries sustained.

I am not personally a fan of sports that are determined by judging but they are a part of the athletic spectrum. I can easily argue that spirit requires more athletic ability, skill, and dedication that a number of the things that are counted already as sports including golf, bowling, etc.