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Utah vs. Colorado
- Thread starter OsideBuff
- Start date
AllStarBuffs
Member
nahhhhhhhhhhhh another misleading thread title
Just a program with a National Title and 4 final four appearances, 5 conference tournament championships, and nearly 30 conference regular season titles. Yep Utah is definitely a good comparable.
So over 5 years we have lost 16 more games, and 13 more conference games overall. So on average, over those 5 years an avg of 3.2 games, or 2.6 conference games. Honestly pretty close. What is the point here?
So over 5 years we have lost 16 more games, and 13 more conference games overall. So on average, over those 5 years an avg of 3.2 games, or 2.6 conference games. Honestly pretty close. What is the point here?
OsideBuff
Dimwitted ****
The two years before LK took over: Utah was 14-17 and 13-18....LK was 6-25 his first year. They stunk for three years straight....and how many recruits remember their final four run over 20 years ago? They had not had a tournament bid since 2009 before LK took over. Let's face it....LK took over a team on the decline..whereas Tad took over a team arguably on the rise....improving every year under JB...which finished 15-16 in his last year and was poised to have his first winning season. Tad then took JB's talent to a 24-14 record and a second round game in the tourney in his first year...arguably his best team.
Utah's "history" has little to do with todays basketball in my opinion. Look at teams with ZERO history that have VERY good basketball teams this year: TCU, Auburn, Nevada, MIddle Tennessee, East Tennessee, Boise State. These teams who hired coaches who could either recruit, coach and/or develop players and are in or close to the top 25. Tad's recruiting has been average at best and the reason he is starting so many Frosh id his previous classes had many washouts and transfers. The players that SHOULD be the core of the team after 4-5 years (Collier, King, etal) have declined in their performance and not even starting. Collier has never really been very good and while King has shown signs of talent, he has been woefully inconsistent. Tad has GREAT facilities thanks to JB...a supportive administration, and the number one voted beautiful campus in the country. Just gotta win Tad...just gotta win...and the players will come.
Utah beat UCLA last night and will mop the floor with USC this weekend. While the Bruins I fear, being on the serious bubble, will run roughshod on our Buffs. Looks like Utah will be tournament bound while we will be rejecting a bid to the CBI. One tourney bid out of the last 4 years for Tad after starting out going to the tourney 4 out of his first 5 years. If that is not a downward trend, I don't know what is. Whereas Krystowiak was 1 for 4 in his first 4 years, he looks to be 3 for 4 in the last 4 and has a very good recruiting class coming in that beat out upper echelon teams like UCLA, etc for several key recruits. Don't know exactly what recruits look at in deciding a school, but certainly it has to be a plus being a consistent tournament team that appears to be a constant in the top four or five in the conference.
Utah's "history" has little to do with todays basketball in my opinion. Look at teams with ZERO history that have VERY good basketball teams this year: TCU, Auburn, Nevada, MIddle Tennessee, East Tennessee, Boise State. These teams who hired coaches who could either recruit, coach and/or develop players and are in or close to the top 25. Tad's recruiting has been average at best and the reason he is starting so many Frosh id his previous classes had many washouts and transfers. The players that SHOULD be the core of the team after 4-5 years (Collier, King, etal) have declined in their performance and not even starting. Collier has never really been very good and while King has shown signs of talent, he has been woefully inconsistent. Tad has GREAT facilities thanks to JB...a supportive administration, and the number one voted beautiful campus in the country. Just gotta win Tad...just gotta win...and the players will come.
Utah beat UCLA last night and will mop the floor with USC this weekend. While the Bruins I fear, being on the serious bubble, will run roughshod on our Buffs. Looks like Utah will be tournament bound while we will be rejecting a bid to the CBI. One tourney bid out of the last 4 years for Tad after starting out going to the tourney 4 out of his first 5 years. If that is not a downward trend, I don't know what is. Whereas Krystowiak was 1 for 4 in his first 4 years, he looks to be 3 for 4 in the last 4 and has a very good recruiting class coming in that beat out upper echelon teams like UCLA, etc for several key recruits. Don't know exactly what recruits look at in deciding a school, but certainly it has to be a plus being a consistent tournament team that appears to be a constant in the top four or five in the conference.
OsideBuff
Dimwitted ****
That's funny actually. So you are saying that a record of 10-6 versus 7-9 is not a big deal? Okey dokey....That is huge...difference between being in the top 4-5 in conference versus the bottom 4....
@SDB, what were you expecting in this case? Entering the Pac-12, Utah was clearly the better basketball program overall and yet CU won one Pac-12 conference tourney while Utah hasn't won a conference championship yet. The state of Utah is enjoying a nice run in football at this point but its core is still shaped like a basketball.
If I was an Utah fan, I think I'd be disappointed while as a CU fan, I'm happy with what MBB has done in the conference compared to its Big 12 days. And CU has a coach that will be here for the long haul while we don't know if Utah has the next Rick Majerus or not. I'd say CU has met expectations better than Utah has met expectations and that is due to Utah's bar being higher.
And "Whiny Bitch" fits you to a tee. Tad is not going anywhere and you are free to go.
If I was an Utah fan, I think I'd be disappointed while as a CU fan, I'm happy with what MBB has done in the conference compared to its Big 12 days. And CU has a coach that will be here for the long haul while we don't know if Utah has the next Rick Majerus or not. I'd say CU has met expectations better than Utah has met expectations and that is due to Utah's bar being higher.
And "Whiny Bitch" fits you to a tee. Tad is not going anywhere and you are free to go.
aghcsm
Well-Known Member
This CU team is a dictionary definition of inconsistency. There is a real possibility that we will end the season with 6 straight losses and an overall sub-.500 record, after only 8 days ago seeming within reach of 20 wins and an outside shot at the NCAAs. Beat the Arizonas at home, and UCLA on the road - lose to WSU & OSU & CSU on the road and San Diego at home, and needing near miracles to beat South Dakota State and Quinnipeac at home - inconsistency is typically a negative overall, since you’re more likely to lose games you should have won, than win games you should have lost (per conventional wisdom).
Maybe the inconsistent positive side will show up and we’ll close the pac12 season with 6 wins - regardless, the best cure for inconsistency is adding consistently good players, and experience is a moderately close second (likely because experienced players are more likely to be consistently good). Being injury-free can be a big factor, although there sometimes is little appreciation for the value of an injured player until they are no longer available (Spencer and Josh Scott being glaring exceptions...)
Next year will probably be more enjoyable for Buff fans, but the erratic play & outcomes this year has been exhausting.
Maybe the inconsistent positive side will show up and we’ll close the pac12 season with 6 wins - regardless, the best cure for inconsistency is adding consistently good players, and experience is a moderately close second (likely because experienced players are more likely to be consistently good). Being injury-free can be a big factor, although there sometimes is little appreciation for the value of an injured player until they are no longer available (Spencer and Josh Scott being glaring exceptions...)
Next year will probably be more enjoyable for Buff fans, but the erratic play & outcomes this year has been exhausting.
But entirely expected. At least for a lot of people around here. This is what happens when you play 6 (not blue chip) freshman a lot. Add in injuries and this season has gone pretty much as expected, at least for me. Except for that damn Wazzu game, that one still ticks me off. For what it's worth, Quinnipiac was in Virginia, and South Dakota State is the 2nd best team we played in the non conference. It's Xavier, a gap, South Dakota St., a wide gap, everyone else.
Yeah, it's hard to believe the 30th youngest team in the nation is inconsistent.
No idea why that could be.
I think we need to re-calibrate our expectations compared to the top programs. I used to think edge of top 25 consistently was the top of our potential as I assumed thetop programs were paying players. Given how pervasive handing out money seems to be - I just posted in the other thread but Kyle Kuzma was a 3 star recruit at Utah that it appears got paid - anything resembling a consistent top 25 or even 35 program would seem to have to be paying players to sustain the recruiting required.
To expect the program to a consistent top third of the Pac performer - in my opinion - you would have to believe:
To expect the program to a consistent top third of the Pac performer - in my opinion - you would have to believe:
- We aren't a completely clean program and Tad isn't that good of a coach
- We are a clean program and we might as well start bending the rules more since everyone else is doing it but Tad is a good enough coach if he starts.
- Tad isn't a good coach and we need someone who can come in and start working the rules (i.e. Andy Enfield)
Do you have to attack a poster who is asking very reasonable questions??? Based on the his recent track record, Tad Boyle's program is clearly in decline relative to the competition in the PAC 12. CU is now a below average PAC 12 basketball program. Boyle's teams have consistently lacked the mental toughness to win on the road - the loss at Washington St was a disgrace and derailed the season.
He has won exactly one NCAA game in eight years, same as Ricardo Patton. His team has never finished in the Top 4 in the league, even once! He is being passed over by more and more PAC 12 programs from a recruiting standpoint - now add ASU to the list.
Pitifully low expectations like this which largely explain why CU will probably never be any good in the revenue sports. Many in CU's fan base seem to revel in making excuses or trying to tear down other programs which are much better. What's your your explanation for Texas Tech, Boise St, Nevada, etc being so good now? Did they cheat, too? It's a cop-out to attack the poster rather than answer legitimate questions.
It would be very interesting to see how CU fans would react to the same record this year if Ricardo Patton were still the coach.
What happened in 2016 with a senior laden team that vastly under performed??? You can't have it both ways.
OK. I'm just gonna say it.
The program is not in decline. The program is not stagnating. The program is in recovery.
When Coach A was our lead recruiter, we had the talent to win.
In the past couple years with Grier and then English becoming our lead recruiters, we have been signing the talent to win.
In between, it was Rodney Billups in that role. He was an absolute disaster.
The program is not in decline. The program is not stagnating. The program is in recovery.
When Coach A was our lead recruiter, we had the talent to win.
In the past couple years with Grier and then English becoming our lead recruiters, we have been signing the talent to win.
In between, it was Rodney Billups in that role. He was an absolute disaster.
Buffs Basketball Fan
Well-Known Member
Goose was referring to this years team and their youth.
Most basketball people could see that entering the season.
The early taste of some success in the preseason tournament and Arizona sweep raised the bar.
But team still needs to continue to gain experience.
Last years team had so many factors which led to a disappointing season.
Most teams which are senior laden have multiple years playing together, which is why this years team in 3 years could be special. Its that continuity that will bring victories.
dyemeduke
Well-Known Member
I'm not some all-knowing sage, but I will say that I threw some caution to the winds prior to last year. Scott was so instrumental to our 15-16 team, (on and off court) that I was leery of how the 16-17 team would do without him. Of course, on paper, the expectations made sense.... ....but the fact that I, a random bball fan who has never coached or played at a highly competitive environment, could have somewhat foresaw the debacle, makes me think that perhaps people are too harsh on those responsible for the ultimate results.
But yes, it was disappointing, and Tad shoulders much blame. In the overall context of his tenure though, he's done just fine for us, very well for us really. And this year, even if we lose out, has been a big success in my opinion. They have exceeded my expectations, and I'm looking forward to next year already.
The team sucked and Tad made necessary adjustments on both the staff and the roster.
Watch this group of Freshmen play including Kin, Bey, Dallas, etc and try to tell me that we are "falling behind" in recruiting. Yes they may not have been ranked as high as some other kids in the conference but based on their performances as freshmen tell me exactly which school in the PAC12 would not happily accept them on their rosters?
I do still have a problem with the tendency for Tad's teams to forget how to score for blocks of time costing us games. I also don't like how we (like most PAC teams) fold on the road. To me those are legitimate complains.
Overall though before you start talking about firing Tad tell me who we are going to get that will do a better job without taking us into areas that we don't want to go.
BlackNGold
Club Member
This conversation was on these boards last year. It all depends on what the expectations are for CU Basketball. According to Rick George we are suppose to win either the PAC 12 or the PAC 12 tournament between now and 2020. Tad Boyle has been here 8 years now and I think we have a pretty good idea of who he is. IMO, he is a middle of the pack NCAA BB coach, maybe an average recruiter, and will get you to the NCAA tournament once in awhile. If you are satisfied with the results then everything is OK.
It is nice to jump up and upset a team once in awhile but CU is not a Basketball school. To change that would take a major shift.
It is nice to jump up and upset a team once in awhile but CU is not a Basketball school. To change that would take a major shift.
seattlebuff
Well-Known Member
Overall, this is not a program on decline ... starting 4 freshmen and having 6 play meaningful minutes, and still finishing around .500 is no small feat. The future is certainly bright with this group. You'd have to be blind not to see that.
But the one major quibble I'd have with Tad is his inability to find dynamic guards (Spencer excluded of course, and to lesser degree Ski. I don't count White since he was a one-year rental.) We got lucky beyond belief to get Kin ... he really should be at Dayton or Indiana. After him, who do we have? The best teams and even the average ones have a minimum of 2 guards that can beat someone off the dribble and make plays for themselves or others, and/or have a decent jump shot. We've had so many total fails in the last 5 years at the guard spot. That has to be fixed. That's what's holding us back IMO.
But the one major quibble I'd have with Tad is his inability to find dynamic guards (Spencer excluded of course, and to lesser degree Ski. I don't count White since he was a one-year rental.) We got lucky beyond belief to get Kin ... he really should be at Dayton or Indiana. After him, who do we have? The best teams and even the average ones have a minimum of 2 guards that can beat someone off the dribble and make plays for themselves or others, and/or have a decent jump shot. We've had so many total fails in the last 5 years at the guard spot. That has to be fixed. That's what's holding us back IMO.
Must be harder than we think. At least that's what I've been telling myself as I've looked at how bad Miller's guard play has been ever since he arrived at PGU. Outside of some transfers he has brought in it's been awful -- and that's with Miller being a former excellent college PG himself. You'd think Zona would always be loaded at the PG position with their program history of PGs, their prestige and Miller's own pedigree. But Colorado has had an advantage at the position during their tenures. Kind of bizarre.
CUFan
Welcome back
I think this is spot on. I also think it should be okay to criticize Tad on this board, especially in light of each person’s expectations.
Personally, I am not satisfied with NCAA tournament every once in a while. I think our ceiling is higher than that. Maybe not much higher, but higher nonetheless. I think Tad can get us where I want to be, but he hasn’t gotten there yet. The future is bright with the young guns and I am excited for next year.
Larry K is a great coach. Probably my favorite non-CU coach in the PAC.
Tad Boyle is also a great coach.
But that's not what the post was about. It was just an excuse to rail on Tad again. Which makes sense given the source, these last three games have been UGLY. CU needs to win to end the year to give the players something to latch on to.
Tad Boyle is also a great coach.
But that's not what the post was about. It was just an excuse to rail on Tad again. Which makes sense given the source, these last three games have been UGLY. CU needs to win to end the year to give the players something to latch on to.
Utah also has much better fan support. They averaged over 12k last year (we were under 8k). I couldn't find anything more recent than 2013, but they have outspent us every year in recruiting between 2009 to 2013 and doubled us in some years. I read another study that says there is a direct correlation between making the tournament and recruiting budget. So the best place to criticize Tad is from the most expensive season ticket seats you can afford.
Man, until all the info is 100% out I’m not going to throw one stone.
Exactly. There is so much being rumored that much of it will prove to either be false or unsubstantiated.
J-R-K
Well-Known Member
How did those adjustments work out...a season in which we’re probably not even in the nit.
So when we have a mediocre season with an inexperienced team the youth is an excuse. But last years mediocre season with a veteran team is just brushed aside? That’s awfully convenient logic for Tad. You can’t have it both ways.
Regardless, whose fault is it last years team sucked? Whose the head of the program? Who put together the roster? Who hires the staff? Who recruits the players? Who runs practices and games? And this year whose responsible for previous recruiting misses leading to five freshman playing major minutes? Billups? The head coach is still the single most important person when it comes to recuiting and is obviously the one who hired Billups. It all leads back to Tad. He’s the ceo, the general manager, and the coach.
Even if the program does improve in the future, which i think is a big if, what does that look like? The norm even for Tad’s best seasons can be described as finishing in the middle of a weak conference, being a bubble team, and losing in the first round. I’ll get my popcorn ready! And again even that’s only if there’s improvement. In 2016 alone our laughing stock of a football program spent more weeks ranked then our basketball team has been ranked during the entire eight years under Boyle. Roll Tad!