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2013 Pac 12 Tournament: Colorado v Arizona Game Thread

L Buff said:
Here's a clue ... when Chen is inserted in the lineup ... it's not as a SHOOTING GUARD. He's a ball handler. And while he makes mistakes (as did Nate Tomlinson last year) ... he is still effective. He had a bad first half this game ... but overall I trust him with the ball more that Ski, who takes ill-advised shots, tries to penetrate the inside and gets stripped (happened at least twice in the 1st half today) ... and commits other turnovers by trying to force the pass (maybe Chen has been watching him to much and decided by imitating him he might get more PT ... seems to work for Ski).

By your own "stats" ... Chen has fewer average TOs and a higher shooting percentage. But in any case ... please tell me how you think that Ski has performed as a shooting guard for a major Div I program with a fg % of 36%? *

* by way of comparison ... AZ doesn't have a starter with less than a 42% fg percentage ... and that's Mark Lyons, who gets incessant criticism from their fans.
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Honestly you two are like two blind monkies, shut up.
 
letsgoavs192 said:
Add leaving their best shooter wide open for 3 to the list.

What does he do that Chen can't?
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L Buff said:
^^^
this!!!!
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Pointing up agreeing with letsgoavs192 point about Chen

L Buff said:
It's not a question of Booker v. Chen (although I submit that this argument started weeks ago when Mtn stated that very point, and at that point in the season I would have liked to have Chen get more PT with Booker on the bench) ... it's a question of Booker getting so much PT despite sub-par performance over everyone else who could contribute, e.g., Chen, Talton, Stalzer, hell ... the ****ing ball boy. In sum ... he has not performed up to the standard of a shooting guard for a major Div I program (which I trust you consider us to be at this point).
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So you kind of made it between Chen and Booker by the action I bolded above. Is Ski is a sophomore slump? Absolutely but look at the stats below....

Win Shares:
1. Dinwiddie - 4.61
2. Roberson - 4.11
3. Scott - 2.7
4. Johnson - 2.11
5. Askia Booker - 1.27
6. Chen - 0.96
7. Staltzer - 0.53
8. Talton - 0.49
9. Adams - 0.19

Or we have "Adjusted +/-" for value per 40 minutes:
Booker: 0.62
Chen: -0.85

So out of Staltzer, Talton, and Chen (which you listed), Booker still adds more win value to the team.

http://www.allbuffs.com/showthread....in-Shares-and-Adjusted-for-the-last-5-seasons
 
'Tini said:
Pointing up agreeing with letsgoavs192 point about Chen

So you kind of made it between Chen and Booker by the action I bolded above. Is Ski is a sophomore slump? Absolutely but look at the stats below....

Win Shares:
1. Dinwiddie - 4.61
2. Roberson - 4.11
3. Scott - 2.7
4. Johnson - 2.11
5. Askia Booker - 1.27
6. Chen - 0.96
7. Staltzer - 0.53
8. Talton - 0.49
9. Adams - 0.19

Or we have "Adjusted +/-" for value per 40 minutes:
Booker: 0.62
Chen: -0.85

So out of Staltzer, Talton, and Chen (which you listed), Booker still adds more win value to the team.

http://www.allbuffs.com/showthread....in-Shares-and-Adjusted-for-the-last-5-seasons
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I updated the win shares, just now.

of note - booker's offensive win shares just went into the negative.
 
The whole debate was fun for awhile, but honestly Ski needs to start hitting more shots. That is really all that matters now. He showed some flashes today, but it needs to be more than that because he is missing too many shots for us to be effective.
 
As far as the game overall, I thought it was a gutty effort in a game where Arizona looked like the clearly better team. That over the back call on Roberson was horse**** and sealed the game.

When Dinwiddie flips the switch, it it a sight to behold.
 
I don't think it would hurt Ski to be aggressive and drive early on in games. Maybe he could get a layup or two, get to to the line even. Always helps to see the ball go thru the net early.
 
Didn't see the game today, little thing called work got in the way but caught bits of it on the radio and on the web. Some observations mostly from the stats and the bits I got.

Scott was almost invisible today. Zona is a bad matchup for him but he has also fallen off dramatically since the injury. If any one player on this team needs a solid off-season it is Scott. Needs to put on some muscle, develop a little more variety in his offensive game, build some endurance for the season, and most importantly get his confidence back.

Dre had a Dre line, can't blame this one on him. He should be a factor for us in the tourney.

Spencer had a tough game from the floor but still produced 18 points on 12 shots, took him some time to get going but he impacts even when not having a great game.

Ski is tremendously talented but it isn't happening. Shooting 4-10 from the floor is actually better than his season average but if I'm an opponent I don't mind him having the ball right now. When it last most of the season it isn't a slump. He needs to figure something out in the off-season or with some of the talent we have coming in he is going to find himself watching a lot of the game from the bench in the future.

Earlier in the season some were speculating that Talton might not be cut out for this level of ball. Instead it looks like he is starting to come on and could be a key player in our future. Good to see somebody stick with it and battle his way into the picture.


XJ is going to be a factor for this team in the future. He is a guy who can be effective in a lot of ways.


Again this team has got to figure out how to pull themselves out of those dead spots that cost them games. Against a team like Arizona you can't play part of a game and expect to win it. I give them credit for never quiting and making a game out of it late, it was much closer than the score, but they put themselves into that position of having to scramble and came up short.
 
'Tini said:
Kind of amazing that we're going to the tourny after looking at that, wow.
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Even though the updated #'s went somewhat against your argument, I'll say that I actually agree with you. Even though Booker's offensive #'s are terrible anyway you look at it, they aren't entirely his fault. He does take bad shots early in the shot clock, but he also shoots a decent amount as the shot clock is winding down. They aren't necessarily great shots, but you have to get one off, it's a product of our sh***y offense. Chen isn't taking those shots, he's deferring to either Ski or Dinwiddie. So Ski's numbers are skewed. I don't have anything empirically to back this up, but I would say around 1/4 of his shots are in the last 5 seconds of the shot clock.
 
BuffLuKe said:
I don't think it would hurt Ski to be aggressive and drive early on in games. Maybe he could get a layup or two, get to to the line even. Always helps to see the ball go thru the net early.
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Ski's issue is not aggressiveness.

And JG nails it. Booker is forced to take too many bad shots late in the shot clock. Ski is asked to do an awful lot because no one else really steps up outside of a couple other players.
 
Duff Man said:
The whole debate was fun for awhile, but honestly Ski needs to start hitting more shots. That is really all that matters now. He showed some flashes today, but it needs to be more than that because he is missing too many shots for us to be effective.
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Or don't shoot as much, and just take care of the ball and play good D
 
jgisland said:
Even though the updated #'s went somewhat against your argument, I'll say that I actually agree with you. Even though Booker's offensive #'s are terrible anyway you look at it, they aren't entirely his fault. He does take bad shots early in the shot clock, but he also shoots a decent amount as the shot clock is winding down. They aren't necessarily great shots, but you have to get one off, it's a product of our sh***y offense. Chen isn't taking those shots, he's deferring to either Ski or Dinwiddie. So Ski's numbers are skewed. I don't have anything empirically to back this up, but I would say around 1/4 of his shots are in the last 5 seconds of the shot clock.
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Very valid points, agree 100%
 
Unbelievable that the idea of Ski not shooting or even playing lives on in some minds as a winning solution. Simply not how it works. I'm not sure what else to say. We are what we are this year. Ski is a part of that. It would be absolute disaster without Ski.
 
His shot selection is bad I agree but something has to get him going. He seemed to be not thinking so much last year. I haven't seen as many games this year but they said something on the radio today that made me think. He was missing a few shots and he was working on his stroke against air. He's always gonna be streaky but maybe he's thinking it too hard. Y'all have seen him more than me.
 
BuffLuKe said:
His shot selection is bad I agree but something has to get him going. He seemed to be not thinking so much last year. I haven't seen as many games this year but they said something on the radio today that made me think. He was missing a few shots and he was working on his stroke against air. He's always gonna be streaky but maybe he's thinking it too hard. Y'all have seen him more than me.
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Here's to Ski coming out in March Madness on all cylinders like he did against UNLV in the Dance. I have a feeling he's going to end the year in proper fashion. This team can make some noise with a hot Ski. Glad to have these days off. Serves teams well for the Dance
 
CVilleBuff said:
Unbelievable that the idea of Ski not shooting or even playing lives on in some minds as a winning solution. Simply not how it works. I'm not sure what else to say. We are what we are this year. Ski is a part of that. It would be absolute disaster without Ski.
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Totally agree, and this is where I will be the first to admit that the numbers don't tell the whole story.
 
I did have a question. Why are we getting so late into the clock? I heard it on the radio but damn it seemed like we had a ton of possessions that were under 10 on the clock, some lower.
 
BuffLuKe said:
I did have a question. Why are we getting so late into the clock? I heard it on the radio but damn it seemed like we had a ton of possessions that were under 10 on the clock, some lower.
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Hate to say it, but sometimes we don't run an offense and do a bunch of one on one garbage that goes nowhere. Add Arizona's smothering D in, and I think that's the answer.
 
CVilleBuff said:
Hate to say it, but sometimes we don't run an offense and do a bunch of one on one garbage that goes nowhere. Add Arizona's smothering D in, and I think that's the answer.
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Goose calls it the "3 man weave 35 ft from the hoop" that's the best description that I've heard.

my dad called me during the game today, he watches a lot of bball but only the occasional CU game, his quote today "so if there there going to try to play 1 on 1, why don't they isolate the guy on one side so he has some room to work?" me "i know dad, i know"
 
jgisland said:
Goose calls it the "3 man weave 35 ft from the hoop" that's the best description that I've heard.

my dad called me during the game today, he watches a lot of bball but only the occasional CU game, his quote today "so if there there going to try to play 1 on 1, why don't they isolate the guy on one side so he has some room to work?" me "i know dad, i know"
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All I have to say is classic!
 
jgisland said:
Goose calls it the "3 man weave 35 ft from the hoop" that's the best description that I've heard.

my dad called me during the game today, he watches a lot of bball but only the occasional CU game, his quote today "so if there there going to try to play 1 on 1, why don't they isolate the guy on one side so he has some room to work?" me "i know dad, i know"
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Epic. Spot on. Both Goose and your dad :nod:
 
CVilleBuff said:
Hate to say it, but sometimes we don't run an offense and do a bunch of one on one garbage that goes nowhere. Add Arizona's smothering D in, and I think that's the answer.
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I started listening around when Jelly got his 2nd, that probably didn't help the O any. We need that dude in the tourney. I'm not of Ski shouldn't shoot camp and I know he doesn't have any choice. Hell, I don't want him to deferr. I probably shouldn't have said aggressive with Ski, Id just like to see him get some easy buckets early. It usually helps guys that can score.
 
L Buff can you stop arguing that Chen is a better basketball player than Chen. When opposing fans read stuff like that on our site, it makes them think we are idots who don't know anything about basketball.
 
tante said:
L Buff can you stop arguing that Chen is a better basketball player than Chen. When opposing fans read stuff like that on our site, it makes them think we are idots who don't know anything about basketball.
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Thats deep. But its not question ski is a better basketball player than Chen. Chen is a hustle guy. Reminds me of Eduardo Najera of the nuggets years ago. Ski is a great player who is having a long slum. He is thinking too much. Completely different levels, but in high school baseball my senior year I was hitting like 250 through the first 8 games worst slump of my life.I tried everything to get out of it. Hitting for hours. Videotaping. Everything. I got hurt and missed four games and got my mind off baseball and everything for a while and came back and busted out of the slump. Ski just needs to put the basketball away for a couple days.
 
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