Great memory! I am the king of going away from the OP - who did something stupid off field that may desert another chance. IMO, the real difference between them and most others is that they got caught.
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A letter to the people calling for Embree's head.
- Thread starter Jaximus
- Start date
I can't give you names but there are guys out there. There are guys who are retired who would come back for one more shot at it, there are guys who were on staffs that got fired last year along with their head coaches who didn't find the right situation, there are guys out there who are grad assistants right now or who were grad assistants in the past couple of years who didn't find a job yet and are coaching at some HS.
You also may be able to hit it with a guy who spent a few years in the NFL based more on his smarts than his talent who was a late cut this year and is looking for a job.
None of these guys is going to be an automatic guaranteed success but based on what we are seeing with Marshall I'm willing to risk it.
Me too.
BLKnGLD_swag
Member
Never been a fan of firing after 2 years. i dont think its fair... just never agreed with it but it seems times have changed for that. Were like KU right now... They fired Turner Gill after 2 and pretty much said lets start over... I could see a coach coming in next year and being successful because P rich is back, Jeff thomas is here all these young kids are another year older and we could win some games and embo wouldnt get any credit. I say we keep him and let him see it through with his players and install the system. next year is the year or we give him the boot. Otherwise Im stickin with embo. this year is going to be hard, and there were posters that thought this year would be worse than year 1... and its looking like that.. just going to have to deal with it...but 2013 is do or die for embo. good players back and more experienced.
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NashBuff
CSU Knob-Slobberer
I played HS football and have followed football like a religion since 1990. I can safely say that this isn't a very good CU team but it goes deeper than coaching. People are forgetting that we are still a team in transition between conferences plus to a degree, we are like a Big Ten school playing in the SEC at this point. Blaming just the head coaches is not the answer at this point. I did say that I believed that if CU wanted to get rid of Embree after this season, it will be possible with the Pac-12 media money that the Buffs are getting this year. But after posting what is a very thoughtful blog about CU's struggles this season, I'm not too sure that firing Embree would be a good thing at this point. Embree is to us what John Blake was to OU in the mid-1990's and we need to keep that in mind when it comes to the timing of whether to get rid of Embree after this season or not.
EDIT: I have gone through the transition of switching conferences in HS football in Colorado when my school moved up a classification from 2A to 3A and my school went on a 24 game losing streak as a result. I can't stress enough about the transition from the Big 12 North to the Pac-12 South. Out of the four former Big 12 teams in new conferences, CU is going through the most difficult transition. Nebraska is playing cold weather teams in the B1G while MU and A&M are playing warm weather teams which would benefit A&M more than MU at this point.
EDIT: I have gone through the transition of switching conferences in HS football in Colorado when my school moved up a classification from 2A to 3A and my school went on a 24 game losing streak as a result. I can't stress enough about the transition from the Big 12 North to the Pac-12 South. Out of the four former Big 12 teams in new conferences, CU is going through the most difficult transition. Nebraska is playing cold weather teams in the B1G while MU and A&M are playing warm weather teams which would benefit A&M more than MU at this point.
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Lt.Col.FrankSlade
Well-Known Member
In my opinion, the comparison of Embree to John Blake is valid. However, I think most OU fans would say that keeping Blake another year did not benefit their program, other than the fact that Bob Stoops was more seasoned as a defensive coordinator when the position opened. (Stoops was defensive coordinator at Florida. Florida won the national championship in 1996, Stoops first year as DC.)
NashBuff
CSU Knob-Slobberer
Yes Stoops was seasoned as a DC at the time and that is something we should look at if we have to replace Embree.
I don't think it's too late for Embree at this point. What I think needs to be done is make changes to the coaching staff after the season unless CU turns it around during conference play. This could mean replacing both coordinators at this point. Anyone know how long EB's multiyear contract runs?
EDIT: Stoops was the DC at KSU under Bill Snyder so Stoops wasn't a total stranger to the Big 12 at that time before he went to Florida. While at Florida, he was able to see what kind of football is better suited for warm weather football like I have pointed out last night and this morning. Then when the OU job opened up, Stoops was a very good canadiate for that job.
I think I outlined what CU needs to look for in the next coaching staff if it comes to that point.
It can't hurt to lean on OU again. That is where we got Eddie Crowder from. Or we could also lean on Oklahoma State because they went through the same turbulence that OU went through the 1990's.
I don't e-mail Mike Bohn or anyone at CU very often not even after meltdowns, but I think it would be a good idea to offer encouragement to Bohn & Embree in this situation.
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Lt.Col.FrankSlade
Well-Known Member
Has the strategy of replacing coordinators ever worked? Weren't these coordinators hand picked by Embree? It's not like they were both forced upon Embree by the athletic director. Seems like just delaying the inevitable, to me.
Jaximus
Club Member
Well I have to admit. I felt like standing up for Embree after watching everyone lose their **** and start demanding his firing, but after taking a couple days to reflect and watch a replay of the game I'm finding it hard to stay behind him.
I really like Embo. His heart is in the right place and he has a lot of passion for this program. He definitely stepped into a position where he didn't have much of a chance to succeed right away. The talentless HaLkins leftovers aren't helping much. However, as pleased I am with his scouting and recruiting abilities thus far, his gameday coaching abilities have looked very poor. I don't know whether to blame the coaches or the players for not having enough heart and determination on the field. Maybe it's both. When an FCS school's players clearly "want it" more than the CU players, that is a huge sign to me that Embree may just not be a great leader. Maybe it is their NFL approach to running a program or the scheme's being too complex and making the players think too much. It's clear to me that someone needs to light a fire under their asses. I'm a defensive guy and I can't stand to watch a defense who isn't trying to inflict pain on every play. YOU PUNCH THEM IN THE MOUTH'S AND NEVER LET THEM FORGET YOU'LL DO IT AGAIN! Orms and Pericak have a little of that, but it needs to be a defensive mentality.
I wonder if we would have been better off if Mac got the coaching job and these other guys were assistants. Although I'm not sure EB could out-strategize my girlfriend in a game of NCAA 13 (she really likes that blitz ya know).
I am pretty turned off by the radical fanatics out there ready to see Embree axed as soon as possible and spitting every kind of poison they can think of. There are a bunch of classless assholes out there that make their voices heard the loudest and it's ****ing annoying. Let's treat the situation with some common sense and class. Embree is a good guy who at least deserves our respect for trying to fix this program. The fact remains that Embo has just started his 2nd year. His freshman are showing signs of promise that we all hoped to see. But the O-Line is just plain awful, the play calling is elementary and the players aren't buying into what Embo is selling. Those issues need to improve this year or I won't blame CU for starting over with someone else. The worst thing that can happen is another lame duck year that sets the program back again. If you're going to let the man go, then do it.
I really like Embo. His heart is in the right place and he has a lot of passion for this program. He definitely stepped into a position where he didn't have much of a chance to succeed right away. The talentless HaLkins leftovers aren't helping much. However, as pleased I am with his scouting and recruiting abilities thus far, his gameday coaching abilities have looked very poor. I don't know whether to blame the coaches or the players for not having enough heart and determination on the field. Maybe it's both. When an FCS school's players clearly "want it" more than the CU players, that is a huge sign to me that Embree may just not be a great leader. Maybe it is their NFL approach to running a program or the scheme's being too complex and making the players think too much. It's clear to me that someone needs to light a fire under their asses. I'm a defensive guy and I can't stand to watch a defense who isn't trying to inflict pain on every play. YOU PUNCH THEM IN THE MOUTH'S AND NEVER LET THEM FORGET YOU'LL DO IT AGAIN! Orms and Pericak have a little of that, but it needs to be a defensive mentality.
I wonder if we would have been better off if Mac got the coaching job and these other guys were assistants. Although I'm not sure EB could out-strategize my girlfriend in a game of NCAA 13 (she really likes that blitz ya know).
I am pretty turned off by the radical fanatics out there ready to see Embree axed as soon as possible and spitting every kind of poison they can think of. There are a bunch of classless assholes out there that make their voices heard the loudest and it's ****ing annoying. Let's treat the situation with some common sense and class. Embree is a good guy who at least deserves our respect for trying to fix this program. The fact remains that Embo has just started his 2nd year. His freshman are showing signs of promise that we all hoped to see. But the O-Line is just plain awful, the play calling is elementary and the players aren't buying into what Embo is selling. Those issues need to improve this year or I won't blame CU for starting over with someone else. The worst thing that can happen is another lame duck year that sets the program back again. If you're going to let the man go, then do it.
CUFan
Welcome back
By all accounts Embree is a good guy and he does care. I do appreciate those attributes and wish him well. But the fact remains that we have taken a major step back this year, and even before this debacle our recruiting appeared to be lackluster. There are plenty of strong warning signs that we Buff fans have been intensely trained to recognize.
I'm all for calling off the dogs this year and hoping they can pull this thing together, but some major changes need to happen now (be it coaching responsibilites, starters, etc.).
I'm all for calling off the dogs this year and hoping they can pull this thing together, but some major changes need to happen now (be it coaching responsibilites, starters, etc.).
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AllBuff
Member
This is my first, and maybe only post. I have lurked for years, and enjoy the passion and enthusiasm you all show....although I could do without the "jump off a cliff/fire everyone" reactions that are often provided, I do understand it all given the passion you have (we all have) for this once proud program.
Not that it matters, but my background is that I have played football at many levels, and have played for Coach Embree. I coach football, and know many of the coaches on this staff. I am a HUGE Jon Embree supporter as I think/know he has many of the most important qualities that you need to be a successful HC. It is hard to see now, I know, but he is a very good leader, he demands excellence out of everyone around him (more on that later), he fosters an exceptional environment of family and brotherhood, and he is one of the most competitive people that I have ever met. I strongly believe that if given enough time, he will be a wild success here....and he won't be looking for the next big job and jump ship (something that will be hard to find with any coach that finds success at CU). After the last few weeks, I am unsure as to whether or not he will be provided that time, and I can certainly understand that...the team has underperformed the last few weeks for many reasons, but at the end of the day, it falls on him. Those results have been disappointing for me to be sure.
Many of the same qualities that I personally believed would make Embree a good head coach, are the same that made Mac a GREAT head coach (I only use Mac because he is the easiest to relate to given the current environment...and the fact that what works in the SEC, doesn't necessarily apply here for social and economic reasons). And much like Mac, I think it takes longer for a guy like Embree to turn things around HIS way because it has more to do with attitude, relationships, belief and fortitude...rather than scheme, play calling etc... These are things that simply take longer and are not a quick fix, but if they work, you lay the foundation for a legacy. People probably forget how how atrocious Mac was on game days sometimes (for example, he single handedly lost the game in 94' to Nebraska and ultimately cost CU the National Championship in my opinion, because he insisted on running the ball and imposing our will....while Westbrook was running free in the secondary all day).
I hope to see Embree turn it around, and give himself at least another year, because I think with one more year the casual fan will see what I believe in my heart. In order to do that, he is going to have to overcome some significant challenges, quickly. Here is what I think could make the difference: Start Wood...while he may not be the best decision maker under fire, I get the impression that he can fire the ball in there quickly...and the team is going to need some of that since our receivers can't get separation...but it will come at the expense of some very costly mistakes. My experience is that Jon Embree does demand excellence from everyone around him, no matter how close of a friend they may be, and especially as it relates to this program. That in mind, I think he is going to have to deal with the following issues. Marshall is not getting it done...and I think that Embree is starting to see that he might have made a mistake here. He relied on his experience with Marshall on 01', 02'...and ignored his lack of production since that time. Not sure if he should be fired now, but make a change at the end of the year and bandage it anyway you can until then. Get EB out of the booth and onto the field...and put someone that can actually diagnose a defense into the both. EB is just not getting it done. and while many do not believe it, I think Embree will make a change at this position if things do not dramatically improve. On defense, we are playing way too much REAL youth (true freshman), but it is our only option at this point...they will grow. I read a lot here about how youth doesn't matter....it most certainly does, and especially on defense and with so many of them playing in the secondary or the D-Line. When you're a true freshman, you don't react quickly enough, you don't know what it really takes to be successful at this level, etc...this takes time and experience and cannot be coached (no matter what some want to believe) Just like with any job that you have had, you are much different after one year than you were the first month.
The above is simply my honest opinion of the Coach Embree, and the current situation, take it for what it's worth...probably not a whole lot! It does not excuse the performance that has been displayed the last couple of weeks, but I am certain that Embree likely takes these performances (or lack thereof) a lot more critically upon himself than many here would care to believe. And if he doesn't turn it around this year enough to give himself one more year, I bet CU's hand will be forced to make a change...which will be sad, but understood by all.
Not that it matters, but my background is that I have played football at many levels, and have played for Coach Embree. I coach football, and know many of the coaches on this staff. I am a HUGE Jon Embree supporter as I think/know he has many of the most important qualities that you need to be a successful HC. It is hard to see now, I know, but he is a very good leader, he demands excellence out of everyone around him (more on that later), he fosters an exceptional environment of family and brotherhood, and he is one of the most competitive people that I have ever met. I strongly believe that if given enough time, he will be a wild success here....and he won't be looking for the next big job and jump ship (something that will be hard to find with any coach that finds success at CU). After the last few weeks, I am unsure as to whether or not he will be provided that time, and I can certainly understand that...the team has underperformed the last few weeks for many reasons, but at the end of the day, it falls on him. Those results have been disappointing for me to be sure.
Many of the same qualities that I personally believed would make Embree a good head coach, are the same that made Mac a GREAT head coach (I only use Mac because he is the easiest to relate to given the current environment...and the fact that what works in the SEC, doesn't necessarily apply here for social and economic reasons). And much like Mac, I think it takes longer for a guy like Embree to turn things around HIS way because it has more to do with attitude, relationships, belief and fortitude...rather than scheme, play calling etc... These are things that simply take longer and are not a quick fix, but if they work, you lay the foundation for a legacy. People probably forget how how atrocious Mac was on game days sometimes (for example, he single handedly lost the game in 94' to Nebraska and ultimately cost CU the National Championship in my opinion, because he insisted on running the ball and imposing our will....while Westbrook was running free in the secondary all day).
I hope to see Embree turn it around, and give himself at least another year, because I think with one more year the casual fan will see what I believe in my heart. In order to do that, he is going to have to overcome some significant challenges, quickly. Here is what I think could make the difference: Start Wood...while he may not be the best decision maker under fire, I get the impression that he can fire the ball in there quickly...and the team is going to need some of that since our receivers can't get separation...but it will come at the expense of some very costly mistakes. My experience is that Jon Embree does demand excellence from everyone around him, no matter how close of a friend they may be, and especially as it relates to this program. That in mind, I think he is going to have to deal with the following issues. Marshall is not getting it done...and I think that Embree is starting to see that he might have made a mistake here. He relied on his experience with Marshall on 01', 02'...and ignored his lack of production since that time. Not sure if he should be fired now, but make a change at the end of the year and bandage it anyway you can until then. Get EB out of the booth and onto the field...and put someone that can actually diagnose a defense into the both. EB is just not getting it done. and while many do not believe it, I think Embree will make a change at this position if things do not dramatically improve. On defense, we are playing way too much REAL youth (true freshman), but it is our only option at this point...they will grow. I read a lot here about how youth doesn't matter....it most certainly does, and especially on defense and with so many of them playing in the secondary or the D-Line. When you're a true freshman, you don't react quickly enough, you don't know what it really takes to be successful at this level, etc...this takes time and experience and cannot be coached (no matter what some want to believe) Just like with any job that you have had, you are much different after one year than you were the first month.
The above is simply my honest opinion of the Coach Embree, and the current situation, take it for what it's worth...probably not a whole lot! It does not excuse the performance that has been displayed the last couple of weeks, but I am certain that Embree likely takes these performances (or lack thereof) a lot more critically upon himself than many here would care to believe. And if he doesn't turn it around this year enough to give himself one more year, I bet CU's hand will be forced to make a change...which will be sad, but understood by all.
Tea Rex
Club Member
He had 0 interest 2 years ago I seriously down that's changed.
Thanks AllBuff. Hopefully not your last post.
I hop this is not your only post. However, how the hell did you get the Allbuff name in October of 2011!!? Well done sir.
Anyways, you are at about the same place I am re: Embree. However, he needs to make the changes you suggested or something along those lines quickly, and they need to work. I don't see the changes coming soon enough (or being effective enough) to save his job. The Marshall and EB hires are too much to overcome, imo.
Rraalph 3000
Well-Known Member
I don't think anyone doubts many of the points you bring up....We all know Embree loves this team and will work harder than most anyone to get the ship righted, and we know that failings like this past weekend he will take the responsibility and be rightfully hurt by it. That for sure is a certainty and why many of us may "like" Embree or even want to empathize with him.
But at the end of the day....just like any job. Even if you hired you Brother to do a job, if there are failings due to certain areas and there doesn't seem to be a commitment or plan to fix them, then you have to cut ties as much as it may hurt to do so. I'm certainly not of the fire Embree mantra yet as I think he deserves a very minimal benefit of the doubt in what he inherited, but if what we've seen the past 2 games maintains throughout the season (towards a 1-11 or 0-12 record like many of us now see as very possible) it's very difficult for anyone to make a valid case as to how it will change given 1 more offseason unless Embree is willing to make some deep cuts and changes of his own.
Good post. Welcome to the site.
For me, it comes down to whether or not Jon is willing to make the necessary changes.
Rip Scherer needs to be in the booth next week. EB on the sideline helping Marshall with the OL and the RBs.
CenturyBuff
Member
This is a Class "A" post, Allbuff. I agree absolutely about EB being on the sideline, and with the others having Rip upstairs.
We'll see what depth chart changes occur this week also.
At QB, I can't fathom Wood not getting the start this week--I see no way they could keep Webb in as the starter. We're on the road, Fresno is tough at home, but we gotta see what kind of moxie Wood has. If Webb gets the start again, it will smell of the same stubbornness D2 showed in 2009 by keeping Cody in as the starter. I would hope (and pray) that Wood in at QB would give that position the same type of spark starting Powell gave the RB position.
At RB, I agree with the other thread that Josh Ford deserves a shot.
But really the QB position is where anything positive has to begin. Both CSU and Sac State showed no fear or respect for Webb, came at him fearlessly, and we could not make them pay. Burn them when they blitz a few times, force them to somehow respect the pass, THEN maybe the run game can keep progressing.
Regarding Embree (since he's the actual topic), whether he makes these and/or other coaching changes, will be a measuring stick (to a degree) of him as a coach and leader of the program. Does he show blind loyalty to EB and Marshall and others, or does he recognize when they are not getting the job done and hold them accountable?
Solid post AllBuff
To me it doesn't matter who is the QB, who the RBs are, and who is calling the plays if we can't block on the O-Line. Something has to happen with Marshall and soon. Maybe putting EB on the sideline and in his earhole might help, it can't hurt. As young and lacking experience as we are it may not be bad having EB on the sidelines to coach some guys in technique and in responsibilities "on the fly."
To me it doesn't matter who is the QB, who the RBs are, and who is calling the plays if we can't block on the O-Line. Something has to happen with Marshall and soon. Maybe putting EB on the sideline and in his earhole might help, it can't hurt. As young and lacking experience as we are it may not be bad having EB on the sidelines to coach some guys in technique and in responsibilities "on the fly."
AllBuff
Member
Doesn't matter, I am AllBuff, get ME a sammich...and a beer.
I am sure that I might post from time to time....but I just don't find that many subjects important enough to voice my opinion on. I try to be very objective and honest with my view, and I just don't care to get into a discord with some on here simply because I state something that I believe to be the truth. With that said, you should hope to not hear from me again for a long time.
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AllbuffSlapped!
Tell me about it.