A quick look at attrition in the 2011 and 2012 classes

[bigbang2]

so you are ok with recruiting worse than Hawk?

Hawkins had 4 to 5 recruiting cycles. Embo had 1 full recruiting cycle, the 2012 class. Embo sample size is too small and way to early to compare Hawkins to Embo in terms of recruiting. But I must say I really like the young players signed by Embo.

 

[Duff Man]

The sample size is not too small because the 2013 class was going nowhere if Embree had survived. Forget about any 2014 momentum, especially in Colorado, where the last staff went with the scorched earth strategy.

The point that you still have failed to grasp in your time on the board is that merely filling out a depth chart with pure numbers means next to nothing.

 

[bigbang2]

We can also argue that Embo would have kept Jagne and Loud if he wasn't fired. The uncertainty of his job cost the program some recruits even a highly rated TE transfer decided not to transfer to CU. I don't judge the 2013 by the class ranking. I like the 2013 OL recruiting.

 

[Duff Man]

You certainly view Embree's recruiting in the best possible light. Anyone who views the last staff's OL recruiting favorably needs their head examined.

At the end of the day, the coaching change gave us a chance to salvage the 2014 class.

 

[MtnBuff]

Hawkins had 4 to 5 recruiting cycles. Embo had 1 full recruiting cycle, the 2012 class. Embo sample size is too small and way to early to compare Hawkins to Embo in terms of recruiting. But I must say I really like the young players signed by Embo.

JE's recruiting was on a path to nowhere. I don't question that he found a few diamonds in the rough and that he brought in some quality young men. The trouble was that he brought in and was in the process of bringing in many more kids who in the eyes of all the other major conference coaches didn't have enough talent. Now every now and then a kid can slip through the cracks and turn into a quality player but for the most part the concensus is right. When 11 coaches in the PAC12 say that a kid isn't fast enough, big enough, or skilled enough to contribute in the league enough to justify an offer they are usually right.

I respect your loyalty to the guys who are on the team right now that came in under Embree and even under Hawkins but bottom line is that we have lots of guys who are simply not good enough. Some of them never play, others are forced to play because we don't have anyone else to play and get exposed. When you lose multiple games by 40 or more points you can blame a lot on coaching but you also have to recognize that our kids didn't match up to our opponents. Multiple teams could have done the same or worse to us than Fresno did but held back just to avoid increasing the embarrassment. I saw more laughter and joking going on with our opponents than I have ever seen in a college season. Our coaches were a joke, our talent was a joke, and our recruting was a terrible joke.

You can make all the defending comments you want but I will simply refer you to the scoreboard and the competing offers our kids had from major division schools.

 

[bigbang2]

You certainly view Embree's recruiting in the best possible light. Anyone who views the last staff's OL recruiting favorably needs their head examined.

At the end of the day, the coaching change gave us a chance to salvage the 2014 class.

I actually like Embo recruiting. 2013 OL recruiting is very good.

Sutton- good looking OG prospect, he is already over 290 pounds
Graham- excellent right tackle prospect
Kroshange- he is also a a very good right tackle prospect. Nembot will probably take over for Harris at LT next year.
Huckins- tractor Huckins

Not highly ranked by rivals or scouts but solid group of players.

I also like the pickups in the secondary.

 

[MtnBuff]

I actually like Embo recruiting. 2013 OL recruiting is very good.

Sutton- good looking OG prospect, he is already over 290 pounds
Graham- excellent right tackle prospect
Kroshange- he is also a a very good right tackle prospect. Nembot will probably take over for Harris at LT next year.
Huckins- tractor Huckins

Not highly ranked by rivals or scouts but solid group of players.

I also like the pickups in the secondary.

Are you saying you would prefer them to the group of Colorado kids who went to bigger more successful programs over the past couple of years and we basically got none of. If so that you are dumber than I thought.

We will see how good the OL recruits we got in 13 turn out to be. I hope they are as good as you seem to think, I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[bigbang2]

I want the best players to play for CU, regardless of what state they played their High school football. I do prefer Nembot to Callahan that went to Auburn. I do like Sutton and Huckins a lot.

 

[Duff Man]

Yeah, I know you like the OL class, I did not need all the details.

And surely you are not giving Embree credit for the secondary signees you like?

 

[bigbang2]

Yeah, I know you like the OL class, I did not need all the details.

And surely you are not giving Embree credit for the secondary signees you like?

I like the

2011 pickup of Henderson
2012 pickup of Mosely, Wright, Hall, Walker and Crawley

 

[FlatironsBuff]

You certainly view Embree's recruiting in the best possible light. Anyone who views the last staff's OL recruiting favorably needs their head examined.

At the end of the day, the coaching change gave us a chance to salvage the 2014 class.

BB@ is obviously a 'water bottle half full' type of guy.

 

[BuffWarHog]

I like the

2011 pickup of Henderson
2012 pickup of Mosely, Wright, Hall, Walker and Crawley

(Heat shield up) - nothing against Henderson, and yes, he's the best we've got, but he was still on the field for every play of every game where we got torched by 40. Just because he started as a freshman doesn't mean he's Dion Figures. Don't forget he started opposite a receiver/RB/small line backer/punter/etc who couldn't start at their own position his freshman year. Then last year he was opposite true freshman playing v the Pac-12 Offenses. I'm pretty sure most OCs weren't telling their QBs to stay away from Henderson.
Whats my point - a lot of talk about Henderson being a diamond in the rough, someone who was overlooked...yet like GT, I'm still waiting for him to truly make an impact.

 

[MtnBuff]

(Heat shield up) - nothing against Henderson, and yes, he's the best we've got, but he was still on the field for every play of every game where we got torched by 40. Just because he started as a freshman doesn't mean he's Dion Figures. Don't forget he started opposite a receiver/RB/small line backer/punter/etc who couldn't start at their own position his freshman year. Then last year he was opposite true freshman playing v the Pac-12 Offenses. I'm pretty sure most OCs weren't telling their QBs to stay away from Henderson.
Whats my point - a lot of talk about Henderson being a diamond in the rough, someone who was overlooked...yet like GT, I'm still waiting for him to truly make an impact.

You are right that Henderson has been playing in some defenses with very little talent around him. They have also been some of worst coached defenses I have ever seen on a college football field (and I go back to the days of Eddie Crowder.)

Henderson is a diamond in the rough, he has shown individual skills that are as major conference quality. Has he been burned, yes by some of the best recievers in the country when he has had virtually no help. Give him some support and you will see some true impact, he is good enough to do that.

The problem is that we have had about 10 years of classes that where 90%+ diamonds in the rough and the scoreboard has regularly shown that while a few have turned out (guys like Hendo, Speedy, Solder, etc.) but the ones who have worked out have been to few and far between to have anything resembling a successfull program.

What we have had is just enough of them turn out to perpetuate the fantasy that we can build a winning program with guys that the other programs have "missed." Unfortunately we have seen enough to know it doesn't work. You can't get by with 90% of your class built on hope and 10% on guys who others agree can play. You can reverse it and take a flyer on 10% but what we have been doing doesn't work. Doesn't work for us and I haven't seen any other place it has worked either. You can't pretend that everybody else is stupid and is going to miss on the guys who can win for you.

 

[BuffWarHog]

^^ Exactly. Pointing to Henderson and saying "see, Embo can recruit" is an extremely flawed argument. But even most of our "diamonds in the rough" I would argue would not even start at most Pac-12 programs - Stewart, Bakhtiari...maybe even Solder being examples of such players. They looked good relative to those surrounding them, but Einstein was absolutely correct about Relativity.

 

[Duff Man]

Solder and Bakhtiari would have started at most PAC-12 schools. Speedy would have been heavily used elsewhere.

As for Henderson, he needs to put it together this season. I think he can.

 

[ahoelsken]

Can't add Jagne and Williams to the Attrition numbers. They didn't take a snap with the team. Guys like Harrington, Harlos, Washington have health problems. It is insensitive to blame Embo for guys getting hurt. And attrition is part of College football. I expect the same thing to happen to Coach Mac.

To an extent, you're right bigbang. I think you can place a certain amount of blame in the way Embree and Hawk saw the weight room/conditioning.......The one thing I've already noticed with this staff is different thinking from the Strength coaches (I know Forman has a different title than that). Forman's "I can't make you better, but you won't get better in the training room" philosophy was key to MacIntyre turning around SJSU as quickly as he was able to. Be interesting to see how that transitions.

 

[MtnBuff]

Solder and Bakhtiari would have started at most PAC-12 schools. Speedy would have been heavily used elsewhere.

As for Henderson, he needs to put it together this season. I think he can.

Solder and Speedy would have both ended up at lower level schools (mid-major or below) don't remember Bak but probably the same. They all would have stood out just like we see every year with CSU or Wyoming or even UNC having a couple of kids who turn out to exceed expectations and we wish we had.

Unfortunately the point is that while a few kids exceed expectations the majority meet them or fall short. You can't build a winning program hoping that significant numbers of kids exceed their expectations, it just doesn't happen often enough to win that way.

 

[Darian3Hagan]

Not that blind anymore they kicked Klatt off the board.

What? Really? Im surprised they would turn their back on such a large donor.

 

[Duff Man]

Mtn, you are suggesting coaches never take sleepers in any recruiting class. That strategy sucks.

The point is Bahktiari and Solder were getting looks from other BCS schools and likely would have starred there as well. Stop making general statements all the time when specific players are being discussed.

 

[somebody]

Wow, the last 3 pages went fast - ignore bb2 and responses to bb2 left pretty much nothing.

 

[MtnBuff]

Mtn, you are suggesting coaches never take sleepers in any recruiting class. That strategy sucks.

The point is Bahktiari and Solder were getting looks from other BCS schools and likely would have starred there as well. Stop making general statements all the time when specific players are being discussed.

No, not at all. Even the best classes in the country, those that end up resulting in NC seasons usually include a few guys who the "experts" look at and wonder why they are in the class.

The point is that taking sleepers should be a limited and planned part of a recruiting strategy, not the bulk of your class with a few guys added in that other schools wanted.

I agree that Bak, Solder, and Speedy turned out to be excellent players worth the risk in taking. I'm just not convinced that we took them because we thought they were special but rather because they were the best we could get or were willing to try to get. Looking at the bulk of the rest of the classes that they came in with I'm not willing to give those staff's credit for being outstanding judges of talent.

 

[Duff Man]

Solder was an athletic 6'8" high school TE from Colorado, the very definition of upside. Bakhtiari gained 30 pounds between his junior and senior seasons and only started his senior year in high school, but showed well against good competition. A low risk, high reward signing. Speedy missed his junior year with a knee injury and was undersized. But the coaches liked him enough to keep his commit silent as they were wrapping up the most heralded recruiting class of the last decade.

Of course you do not want a whole class of sleepers, but not all sleeper prospects are equal.

 

[slider]

Solder chose us over an offer from Nebraska/Iowa St
Bakhtiari chose us over Washington/Utah

Definitely both sleeper types but also bcs prospects

 

[MtnBuff]

Solder was an athletic 6'8" high school TE from Colorado, the very definition of upside. Bakhtiari gained 30 pounds between his junior and senior seasons and only started his senior year in high school, but showed well against good competition. A low risk, high reward signing. Speedy missed his junior year with a knee injury and was undersized. But the coaches liked him enough to keep his commit silent as they were wrapping up the most heralded recruiting class of the last decade.

Of course you do not want a whole class of sleepers, but not all sleeper prospects are equal.

I am in full agreement with you. My only point is that for every Solder/Bak/Speedy we have gotten over the years our staffs have signed multiple guys who proved out to be below standard players and never contributed. If a high percentage of their under the radar guys turned out to be reasonably close to these guys we wouldn't be one of the worse BCS programs over the past decade.

I want and hope that Mac brings us in some guys in every class who on signing day make us wonder a little bit. The point is that I want the classes to be filled with solid college football players that are good enough that we can take a chance on a few guys really turning into noteworthy players that the fans didn't expect. At the same time I want enough solid guys that if those less known guys don't turn out we aren't dead in the water like we have been.