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Anyone else suddenly feeling giddy about OL?

After the review of the 2015 schedule, I double checked 2016 to see if it sets up more favorably. We have road games at Michigan, at Stanford, at USC, and at Oregon (plus Arizona). Home slate sets up pretty well, but that away slate is just cruel and unusual punishment.
 
After the review of the 2015 schedule, I double checked 2016 to see if it sets up more favorably. We have road games at Michigan, at Stanford, at USC, and at Oregon (plus Arizona). Home slate sets up pretty well, but that away slate is just cruel and unusual punishment.

While it looks bad on paper, I don't believe in Sark at USC or Helf at UO. Michigan will be interesting.
 
USC might have hit rock bottom for them...they will keep getting better.

Oregon is a power and doubt if they drop far enough even by '16 for CU to win in Eugene.

I think Coach Mac has a good feel for how to beat Stanford having almost done it at San Jose St.

Michigan....will they be in a new coaching regime by then?

Will Rich Rod be in Arizona in 2016?
 
ehepany2.jpg
 
I am not giddy but a black hole and the complaints of losing this OL talent should subside. There is some long term depth. The hope is longtime Buff fan Lynott joins Middlemiss and the Buffs have competition and depth for the next 4 years. This staff has done a hell of a job getting depth that was not here when Embree took over. Embree and staff had issues but they have a solid junior class and many if their recruits that is helping make this team look to be headed in the right direction.


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I am not giddy but a black hole and the complaints of losing this OL talent should subside. There is some long term depth. The hope is longtime Buff fan Lynott joins Middlemiss and the Buffs have competition and depth for the next 4 years. This staff has done a hell of a job getting depth that was not here when Embree took over. Embree and staff had issues but they have a solid junior class and many if their recruits that is helping make this team look to be headed in the right direction.


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This is a good point. The current spin is that he was the worst hire ever by a BCS school, etc. Well, his recruits partnered with some youth brought in last year were making a difference. In my mind, Hawk and his daddy ball issues were far more damaging to CU than Embree ever was. Specifically the decision to extend Hawk was far more damaging to CU than the Embree hire.
 
This is a good point. The current spin is that he was the worst hire ever by a BCS school, etc. Well, his recruits partnered with some youth brought in last year were making a difference. In my mind, Hawk and his daddy ball issues were far more damaging to CU than Embree ever was. Specifically the decision to extend Hawk was far more damaging to CU than the Embree hire.
He recruited some talent, but followed it up with significant attrition of said talent and a spectacular failure of coaching on the field. I don't know if he was the worst BCS coaching hire ever, but he is certainly a candidate.
 
He recruited some talent, but followed it up with significant attrition of said talent and a spectacular failure of coaching on the field. I don't know if he was the worst BCS coaching hire ever, but he is certainly a candidate.

I won't disagree. Embree was a bad hire. After the Sac St game I knew we had another inept coach. The thing that he must get props for is adding some talent to help give Mac at least a base. It's exciting to see the Buffs getting some of the big uglies that we lost to other schools and all the bitching from the "in-state" whiners


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On the curve of where we have been for the past several years, versus where we stand presently in terms of O line talent and coaching (with the Holland addition just added on the roster....). Our future grows brighter.

Lets see see who plays well under the bright lights, and which group jells. Giddy up.
 
If it is true that we now have Callahan and Holland, both of whom could be eligible and push for starting time in 2014 if the chips fall the right way, my outlook on the OL just changed substantially. We also have Wiefels joining soon too.

Assuming Bobo stays eligible, Sefo stays healthy, Fields comes ready to play, I think our offense might actually be good after all. I am also going to throw in Dylan K. coming in a little stronger and ready to play b/c I think he will push for major PT in 2014 too.


Holland is a true freshman right? If he's pushing for playing time in 2014 we have big issues. Tough for 18-19 year olds to compete that early on the OL.


Not sure what to think of Callahan. He is much more likely to make an impact tho.
 
Holland is a true freshman right? If he's pushing for playing time in 2014 we have big issues. Tough for 18-19 year olds to compete that early on the OL.


Not sure what to think of Callahan. He is much more likely to make an impact tho.

Exactly. Other P-5 programs would be in a panic if the scenario was such that a transfer who would likely be 3rd string at Auburn was clearly the best option we would have if he can be eligible. And talk of a RS Frosh who's yet to catch a pass being so key, along with an incoming true frosh at WR and another skinny kid at TE. We are desperate by all measures for contributions in key areas by complete unknowns, which has been true for quite some time now.

This isn't what "average" P-5 teams talk about in May. They talk about which guy is going to win that LT spot among 2-3 guys who've been in the program at least 2 years. Not hoping and praying that a lightly recruited JC guy might somehow make us better on the OLine, or how critical it is that incoming Frosh be stellar from the get go. That's a nice picker-upper if you can get it, but we are forced to rely on it.

I don't think we are as good yet on paper as Utah State was the last couple years for instance. My judgement is based on actual play - not how kids were rated or recruited out of High School. Bottom line is we currently have guys in our 2 deep that wouldn't play at some decent programs outside the P-5. I always preach we will be as good as our weak link and our recent recruiting has a chance to improve that remarkably if we can develop and keep these kids around.
 
Holland is a true freshman right? If he's pushing for playing time in 2014 we have big issues. Tough for 18-19 year olds to compete that early on the OL.


Not sure what to think of Callahan. He is much more likely to make an impact tho.

You are correct in that Holland is very raw. He has only played HS football for a couple years and may also be looking at moving from tackle to guard.

I am excited about Holland and especially about Miller who if he grows into his frame could have a huge upside but both are projects. If either sees much playing time this year we are in big trouble.

Calahan is physically ready right now and while he hasn't played much has been practicing with and against as good a group of talent as anybody in our league has. He could solidify the LT position for the next 3 years for us.

That is assuming that he gets the NCAA exemption to be eligible right away. Counting on the NCAA to make any decision in favor of the athlete is less than a sure thing though so until we get the official word I'm not counting on seeing him this season.
 
Best case scenario is Holland redshirts and 3 yrs down the line he's a quality player.

:nod:

And I want this to be the norm for the OL.

Every now and then you're fortunate enough to sign a special talent who can start as a freshman because his body is ready at 18 or 19 years old and his technique is far enough along to beat 21 or 22 year old DLs and LBs. But for the most part, OLs shouldn't be in the 2-deep until their RS-Sophomore year.

It's normal for 8 to 10 of the OLs on the roster to be 3rd, 4th or 5th year guys.
 
:nod:

It's normal for 8 to 10 of the OLs on the roster to be 3rd, 4th or 5th year guys.

At this point we would be doing well to have 8 to 10 guys who belong on a PAC roster on the OL total.

Your point is correct though. Unless you are recruiting the physical freaks (and they don't come to teams that haven't sniffed a bowl in close to a decade) even the good recruits need a couple of years to mature and develop the technique needed at this level.

Most of these kids were big enough in HS to push the guys they faced around without needing to do it right. Suddenly as college freshmen they are facing guys who are stronger, faster, and know what they are doing.
 
At this point we would be doing well to have 8 to 10 guys who belong on a PAC roster on the OL total.

Your point is correct though. Unless you are recruiting the physical freaks (and they don't come to teams that haven't sniffed a bowl in close to a decade) even the good recruits need a couple of years to mature and develop the technique needed at this level.

Most of these kids were big enough in HS to push the guys they faced around without needing to do it right. Suddenly as college freshmen they are facing guys who are stronger, faster, and know what they are doing.

How would you define "belong on a PAC 12 roster"?

Neither Baktiari, Lepsis nor Solder would have belonged on a PAC 12 roster coming out of HS with the rankings and offers they had. Nor would that kid from Central Mich. who was the overall No 1 draft choice of KC a couple years back! Yet,in contrast, look at where those Stanford OLs with all the accolades were drafted this year: 4th round and later!

OL quality is a function of maturity, development and coaching more than anything; (unless you're an SEC freakazoid who "red-shirted" three years in junior high school and walk on campus as a 6'5" 340lb 20 yr old, frosh!) And CU doesn't have the luxury of recruiting the latter as they need kids who can read at an 8th grade level.
 
How would you define "belong on a PAC 12 roster"?

Neither Baktiari, Lepsis nor Solder would have belonged on a PAC 12 roster coming out of HS with the rankings and offers they had. Nor would that kid from Central Mich. who was the overall No 1 draft choice of KC a couple years back! Yet,in contrast, look at where those Stanford OLs with all the accolades were drafted this year: 4th round and later!

OL quality is a function of maturity, development and coaching more than anything; (unless you're an SEC freakazoid who "red-shirted" three years in junior high school and walk on campus as a 6'5" 340lb 20 yr old, frosh!) And CU doesn't have the luxury of recruiting the latter as they need kids who can read at an 8th grade level.

To start with I'm not talking about recruiting rankings out of HS, I'm talking about ability to play now or in the future at this level.

Secondly the idea that Solder was some guy who came out of nowhere is a myth. He was not a hot prospect out of HS but he did have options. He was a tall kid with a huge frame but in need of filling out. He did fill out while maintaining his quickness and agility and became a pro prospect. Lepsis was a similar situation but people forget that he didn't play OL at CU, he was mostly a TE in heavy formations.

Bak was a bit under the radar but he was a kid that developed into the player he is now.

The problem is that people look at guys like these three and think that you can go out and sign a bunch of kids that other programs don't want and develop them into NFL linemen. Remember that these guys are the rare exceptions, not the rule.

I will ask you honestly, how many of the OL we currently have on the roster (and Calahan isn't here yet) would start for more than 2-3 other PAC teams. How many of the guys on the current roster would ever start for more than the very bottom teams in the PAC.

I am optimistic about the young guys we have coming into the program this year. I am less so about the guys who are were on last years roster.

Nembot is a physical specimen but even with significant time to develop he is still hazardous to the QBs health.
Crabb looks to be a quality player with some versitility, not outstanding but also not a guy to worry about.
Munyer has played but not impressed, if he hasn't gotten better yet it isn't likely to happen now
Mustoe is a kid who should be a key player for us but has dealth with health issues, will he ever become a solid starter
Kelley is a guy who I am optimist about. Still needs more development physically but could be a solid player for us.
Irwin we have heard good things about but he has yet to show it on the field
The rest of last years freshman class are guys that we can hope about but remember that they weren't exactly in high demand from other programs.

Again you can live in the fantasy of living off the under the radar guys and the we will develop them guys but simply put there aren't that many kids who slip through the cracks. If you think that all the other coaching staffs out there are stupid because they pass on a guy the stupid is probably you. These guys are paid to figure out who can become contributors and they don't miss that often.

Now this years group may be somewhat of a change.
Sully has shown that he can play at the JC level, it isn't PAC but he has competed against quality players on film.
Calahan I've discussed before
Miller didn't have a lot of offers but I think this is in large part due to him being so solidly committed so early. He isn't going to play for a while but has a high ceiling.
Kaiser I don't know a lot about but he did have an Oregon State offer and that staff has a good record.
Holland has been discussed but could be good in the future.

Bottom line is that this year looks like a good year for us but doesn't solve the problem. We need to do this every year for a number of years if we want to be a quality team.

It's easy to say about the guys already here "They are Buffs and I'm behind them" but we have to be willing to admit to ourselves that we have guys on the roster who don't belong on a quality PAC roster. I know that isn't nice or what we want but the results on the field have been the evidence. The fact that we can go out and play hard and have a good game plan, and I believe we have had that under M2, and still end up getting blown out eventually when the talent difference takes over shows what we have.
 
The biggest thing for CU is getting a level of competence on the OL.

That comes with continuity of coaches, system and training along with having a depth chart balance.

We see other programs (even outside of the BCS level programs) that have recruited lesser athletes than CU but annually put out a better offensive line.

As a case in point, we're in panic mode over LT. The leaders for that job are Marc Mustoe (LT1 after the spring - chose CU over Arizona, ASU, Cal, KSU, Louisville, UCLA and Utah), Jeromy Irwin (LT2 coming back from injury - chose CU over Boise State, Louisville and Wake Forest) and maybe Shane Callahan if the NCAA grants a waiver to play (LT2 at Auburn this spring who had a bunch of other offers including Michigan and Utah).

Rest of the projected starters:

RT1 Stephan Nembot (offers from ASU, Oregon State, Stanford, UCLA, USC, Washington and Washington State)
OG Daniel Munyer (offers from SDSU, CSU, Nevada, New Mexico and UNLV)
OG Kaiwi Crabb (offers from Arizona and Washington)
C Alex Kelley (offers from Boise State and Minnesota)

Then we've got this for depth:

OG Sully Wiefels (offers from CSU and Hawaii)
OG Isaiah Holland (offers from ASU, Oregon State, Washington State)
OG Jonathan Huckins (offer from Iowa State)
OT Sam Kronshage (offer from Duke)
OT John Lisella (offer from Air Force)
OG Colin Sutton (offer from Yale)
OT Gerrad Kough (offer from Army)
C Brad Cotner (no other offers)
OT Josh Kaiser (offer from Oregon State)
OT Isaac Miller (offer from Washington State)

Is this what the offer lists of the OLs in the top half of the Pac-12 look like? Absolutely not.

But it's as good on paper as the middling BCS programs & a level above the better non-BCS D1 programs.

There is absolutely no excuse not to be able to put together a competent OL out of this talent level.
 
The biggest thing for CU is getting a level of competence on the OL.

That comes with continuity of coaches, system and training along with having a depth chart balance.

We see other programs (even outside of the BCS level programs) that have recruited lesser athletes than CU but annually put out a better offensive line.

As a case in point, we're in panic mode over LT. The leaders for that job are Marc Mustoe (LT1 after the spring - chose CU over Arizona, ASU, Cal, KSU, Louisville, UCLA and Utah), Jeromy Irwin (LT2 coming back from injury - chose CU over Boise State, Louisville and Wake Forest) and maybe Shane Callahan if the NCAA grants a waiver to play (LT2 at Auburn this spring who had a bunch of other offers including Michigan and Utah).

Rest of the projected starters:

RT1 Stephan Nembot (offers from ASU, Oregon State, Stanford, UCLA, USC, Washington and Washington State)
OG Daniel Munyer (offers from SDSU, CSU, Nevada, New Mexico and UNLV)
OG Kaiwi Crabb (offers from Arizona and Washington)
C Alex Kelley (offers from Boise State and Minnesota)

Then we've got this for depth:

OG Sully Wiefels (offers from CSU and Hawaii)
OG Isaiah Holland (offers from ASU, Oregon State, Washington State)
OG Jonathan Huckins (offer from Iowa State)
OT Sam Kronshage (offer from Duke)
OT John Lisella (offer from Air Force)
OG Colin Sutton (offer from Yale)
OT Gerrad Kough (offer from Army)
C Brad Cotner (no other offers)
OT Josh Kaiser (offer from Oregon State)
OT Isaac Miller (offer from Washington State)

Is this what the offer lists of the OLs in the top half of the Pac-12 look like? Absolutely not.

But it's as good on paper as the middling BCS programs & a level above the better non-BCS D1 programs.

There is absolutely no excuse not to be able to put together a competent OL out of this talent level.

My point exactly; though not as well expressed as yours is.

Time for these kids to stop messing with "Ladies Night" and step up as football players. Their excuses (new coaches, new system, lack of competent S&C coaching, youth.....) are dwindling rapidly. But let's stop acting as if they are completely without talent and just a bunch of blobs off the street.
 
I'm coming to a different conclusion than whizzer about nik's post. I see six players on the three deep with offers from more than one other p5 school. That's not a recipe for success. To get to where we want to be, all but one or two should have offers from more than 2 p5 schools - and they can't be offers from Minnesota or Wazzu...
 
I'm coming to a different conclusion than whizzer about nik's post. I see six players on the three deep with offers from more than one other p5 school. That's not a recipe for success. To get to where we want to be, all but one or two should have offers from more than 2 p5 schools - and they can't be offers from Minnesota or Wazzu...

Idk, OL seems like the position where offers out of HS are based on how big and ready they are. OL seems like the position to me where development is the most important thing so long as they have the height, frame, and athleticism to put weight on. CSU had a damn good OL last year and I doubt many, if any, had P5 offers. Hell, our two LTs in the NFL didn't have many P5 offers (Solder - 2, Bahk - 2). Would I complain if we recruited the OL like Stanford? Hell no, but I believe you can build a damn good OL with lighter recruited kids so long as they have what I laid out above.


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I'm coming to a different conclusion than whizzer about nik's post. I see six players on the three deep with offers from more than one other p5 school. That's not a recipe for success. To get to where we want to be, all but one or two should have offers from more than 2 p5 schools - and they can't be offers from Minnesota or Wazzu...

There's enough there to be competent.

Especially when you're not pressing true & redshirt freshmen of this recruiting caliber into starting roles.

This year, it looks like we won't start a single teenager on the OL and they're low-P5/high-otherD1 level recruits.

No excuse for this not to be an OL that can compete on Saturdays and get the job done against most competition.

I'm not expecting dominent, just competent.

That's all I'm saying.
 
Callahan and Holland are surprise "gets" that would have thrilled me had we landed them initially. I was already feeling better about our OL potential before these two were added and not expecting they will play initially or start. It would be ideal if Holland can be a RS.

We certainly do not have a bunch of Chippers to choose from, but decent size and numbers, plus some top in state kids is something we can work with.

We need to see O lineman under this staff responding to a solid group of O line coaches. Couple of RS Fr. I like and am anxious to discover where they stand come Fall. Matching my OL "glass half full" with the expectation that we can win 5-6 games this season and continue to grind a higher. It is as they say a process.....

Will be fun to see this play out as a fan.
 
You are correct in that Holland is very raw. He has only played HS football for a couple years and may also be looking at moving from tackle to guard.

I am excited about Holland and especially about Miller who if he grows into his frame could have a huge upside but both are projects. If either sees much playing time this year we are in big trouble.

Calahan is physically ready right now and while he hasn't played much has been practicing with and against as good a group of talent as anybody in our league has. He could solidify the LT position for the next 3 years for us.

That is assuming that he gets the NCAA exemption to be eligible right away. Counting on the NCAA to make any decision in favor of the athlete is less than a sure thing though so until we get the official word I'm not counting on seeing him this season.

How long do most guys play high school football? ;-)


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How long do most guys play high school football? ;-)


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Most guys play from pee-wee leagues and jr high leagues on up. They then play 4 years of HS ball.

Bottom line is that Holland hasn't been playing near as long as most recruits have been.

If you watch him sometimes he plays like a guy who is still learning how to do some things that come naturally to kids who have played longer.
 
Most guys play from pee-wee leagues and jr high leagues on up. They then play 4 years of HS ball.

Bottom line is that Holland hasn't been playing near as long as most recruits have been.

If you watch him sometimes he plays like a guy who is still learning how to do some things that come naturally to kids who have played longer.

I know the standard progression. I was joking (this the wink). Just the phrase "only played high school ball for a couple years" was funny. Because, you know, you're like only IN high school for a couple of years.


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Most guys play from pee-wee leagues and jr high leagues on up. They then play 4 years of HS ball.

Bottom line is that Holland hasn't been playing near as long as most recruits have been.

If you watch him sometimes he plays like a guy who is still learning how to do some things that come naturally to kids who have played longer.

So his body and his brain haven't been beaten up by a bunch of know-little, win-at-any-cost, old-school youth FB coaches....Great!
 
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