Askia Booker or Levi Knutson

[MtnBuff]

Levi also played with Burks, Dre, Higgins, Relphorde, Dufault, and Tomlinson his senior year.

Weren't a lot of teams putting a big focus on defending Levi that year. With our offensive reluctance this season teams figured at times if they could stop Ski nobody else wanted to shoot the ball.

Another one of those things that make pure statistical comparisons less than the ultimate answer.

 

[Buffnik]

I understand it fine.....I don't agree with all of it. I've been looking at basketball stats on several different levels, and I've never seen a good argument for a guy that shoots 37 pct from the floor as being a great player.

Bob Cousy never had an NBA season where he shot 40% or higher from the field... and he didn't even have the 3pt shot to pull down his percentage.

So, not a great player?

 

[Ruckus]

Bob Cousy never had an NBA season where he shot 40% or higher from the field... and he didn't even have the 3pt shot to pull down his percentage.

So, not a great player?

Great fundamentals.

 

[DiggerBuffs]

So, what exactly did Booker do better then Higgins? Comparing the 2 is undervaluing how great Higgins was during a time that if he wasn't great, the program would've fallen completely off the map.

You are supporting my thoughts, it's not even close, Higgins was far greater. The comparison is similar to comparing even one season of Knutson to Ski's. I have said before Ski is overrated. Still, he was a good compliment player but having him control the team with no player to reign him in led to this ugly season.

Time to turn the page and it is good to not have to rely on Ski this postseason and instead get a sample of the team next year. Collier seems ready finally to not have to share the ball and direct this team. CU will be better for many reasons next year.


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[Goose]

Kenpomism most likely promotes Iverson as the greatest of all time. No, I don't ignore the free throw attempts. Do you ignore the fact that the ball only goes in the hoop 37 percent of the time, and keeping in mind when he draws a foul that doesn't count as a fg attempt? The stats even themselves out without the almighty to come up with equations to clarify for people, and to draw a monthly fee for deciphering the data and making it his own. I do like Barkley's take on analytics. I understand the concept of kennypom, I just think some of it is ****ing silly.

It's absolutely hilarious that you keep insulting KenPom and using guys like Iverson as an example of why KenPom doesn't work.

KenPom/advanced stats HATED Iverson.

You have more in common with KP than you think, you just would prefer to stick your head in the sand and go against the grain. And that's fine, but all you're doing is using confirmation bias to rob yourself.

 

[Buffnik]

It's absolutely hilarious that you keep insulting KenPom and using guys like Iverson as an example of why KenPom doesn't work.

KenPom/advanced stats HATED Iverson.

You have more in common with KP than you think, you just would prefer to stick your head in the sand and go against the grain. And that's fine, but all you're doing is using confirmation bias to rob yourself.

Very true. Iverson is the example I often use when I'm debating against people who I think over-rely on metrics. Iverson's 76er teams were the worst collection of talent to ever make it that deep into the playoffs. There are things that impact winning which the numbers don't do a good job of quantifying. Similarly, how KenPom and other metrics couldn't figure out the Buffs when Dre was here.

 

[absinthe]

Very true. Iverson is the example I often use when I'm debating against people who I think over-rely on metrics. Iverson's 76er teams were the worst collection of talent to ever make it that deep into the playoffs. There are things that impact winning which the numbers don't do a good job of quantifying. Similarly, how KenPom and other metrics couldn't figure out the Buffs when Dre was here.

Or wisconsin.

 

[Goose]

Or wisconsin.

There you go. Lynch, use Wisconsin as your example from now on.

 

[blynch32]

There you go. Lynch, use Wisconsin as your example from now on.

Noted. Listen, I don't doubt that there is some good use for Ken Pom.....I'm stuck in my ways, and I am hard headed about the subject. There are a few different ways to skin this cat, and I'm choosing to not use one of those ways. I feel like analytics and advanced stats just kind've muddy the waters on what's a very simple game to me to look at. Do I not take the time to research all of the advanced stats? Absolutely. I don't want to sound like an old man who refuses to change out of pure stubbornness, but I just don't see the need for most of it.

 

[blynch32]

Bob Cousy never had an NBA season where he shot 40% or higher from the field... and he didn't even have the 3pt shot to pull down his percentage.

So, not a great player?

Never looked at Cousy's stats before until you brought this up.....shocking how average his stats say he was. I don't even like to recognize the 50's and 60's for any basketball reference just because of how different of a game it was. There were like 15 teams in the entire NBA when the Celtics were winning titles, and you could count on one hand how many 7 footers were in the league. Just apples and oranges. But those guys were pioneers for the game becoming what it has become today. I think Askia Booker would average 45 ppg if he was magically transported back to that era.

 

[WizzersGhost]

Now Ski stunted growth? I'll wait for the obligatory "he shoots it and misses too damn much!"

Oh, and if you normalize the win shares to win shares/40 minutes, they are almost identical...1.53 vs 1.56

FIFY. So, you're saying Levi was a better senior, then? I''ll go with that.

They played two different positions and far different roles, though. Levi played guard, Ski played "ski", whatever that was.

Who will end up with the better pro career?

 

[WizzersGhost]

Bob Cousy never had an NBA season where he shot 40% or higher from the field... and he didn't even have the 3pt shot to pull down his percentage.

So, not a great player?

Babe Ruth was a better pitcher than Randy Johnson.......mixing and matching "eras" never works and in basketball, is just ridiculous.

 

[MtnBuff]

FIFY. So, you're saying Levi was a better senior, then? I''ll go with that.

They played two different positions and far different roles, though. Levi played guard, Ski played "ski", whatever that was.

Who will end up with the better pro career?

I will be surprised if Ski ever sees an NBA floor in a regular season game, he will certainly have options in Europe if he wants to pursue them.

He hasn't been at the highest levels so I don't know how much money he has made at it but Levi has made a nice career for himself in Europe.

http://basketball.eurobasket.com/player/Levi_Knutson/Energa_Czarni_Slupsk/135927?AmNotSure=1#

Not a bad deal to get your degree paid for at CU by playing basketball then getting the opportunity to spend a few years in Europe playing the game and experiencing different cities.

 

[TDforTD]

There's more to analytics and advanced stats than efficiency and who plays good one on one defense. They have all kinds of boring stats on spacing and player pace that teams utilize, essentially stats for players who don't put up stats. Teams like the Spurs and Hawks are using this method very effectively.

Analytics could actually save basketball by turning it into a system league. You'll always have the 5 or so players who are flat out better than everyone else, and they may still win games being ball dominant because they're so talented. But for all those other teams without stars, they can start accurately recognizing players for their style of play and what role they may provide and if being terrible wasn't a goal for so many teams, the bottom of the league could become very competitive in the next decade through analytics.

 

[Quattro]

FIFY. So, you're saying Levi was a better senior, then? I''ll go with that.

They played two different positions and far different roles, though. Levi played guard, Ski played "ski", whatever that was.

Who will end up with the better pro career?

No that's not what I said, at all. Ski had to do a ton this year, Knutson had a very strong offensive team around him, including a lottery pick at guard. And a upper classmen true PG with nate.

 

[MtnBuff]

There's more to analytics and advanced stats than efficiency and who plays good one on one defense. They have all kinds of boring stats on spacing and player pace that teams utilize, essentially stats for players who don't put up stats. Teams like the Spurs and Hawks are using this method very effectively.

Analytics could actually save basketball by turning it into a system league. You'll always have the 5 or so players who are flat out better than everyone else, and they may still win games being ball dominant because they're so talented. But for all those other teams without stars, they can start accurately recognizing players for their style of play and what role they may provide and if being terrible wasn't a goal for so many teams, the bottom of the league could become very competitive in the next decade through analytics.

The problem I have with analytics is that they take a certain amount of value judgement in prioritizing stats but are treated as quantitative gospel.

I have no issue with straight stats. Player X scores 15.7ppg on 48.3% shooting including 32.7% from 3 and averages 5.1 points per game from the line.

The problem I have is when you try to convert that into things like the baseball WAR stat. No arguing that a healthy Tulo wins you some games. The idea that he wins you exactly 14.2 games above having an average quality replacement in his spot though is not a provable number, it is a supposition based on statistical valuation that may or may not be true.

The analytics can be valuable as a simple way to compare players and get a general idea but I don't buy them as absolute truth. In a game like basketball there are a lot of elements of the game that don't get reflected in a stat.

 

[TDforTD]

Fair points, I'm someone who had Miggy as MVP over Trout so I definitely appreciate the difference between relative and absolute value, and agree that a majority of the baseball community misuses/misunderstands things like WAR.

Analytics in basketball aren't an exact science yet. True team sports are harder to analyze because there are so many factors at play, but teams like the A's, Hawks, Spurs, Patriots, etc give us an idea that math really does have a place in sports.

 

[Lt.Col.FrankSlade]

I've never heard of a basketball player quitting on his team, rather than play in the post-season. Has that ever happened before?


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[Buffnik]

I've never heard of a basketball player quitting on his team, rather than play in the post-season. Has that ever happened before?


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I think we should clarify what the CBI is here.

If CU doesn't win this thing, I'm kind of embarrassed.

But the purpose of accepting the invite and paying the money was to get extra practices along with some extra minutes for bench guys in preparation for next season.

If CU does go on to win this thing, they better damn well not hang a CBI Champion banner at the Keg. Winning this tournament is much less meaningful than the Charleston Classic title they won a couple years ago.

So, given that, I could see why a senior who was rehabbing a hip pointer and getting ready to work out for pro scouts might say that the CBI doesn't make sense for him or the program. It wasn't handled well, though. If Ski had decided not to play but was staying involved with the team it would be a lot better.

 

[Lt.Col.FrankSlade]

If Booker couldn't play because of an injury he could have worn a suit and sat on the bench.


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[aghcsm]

If Booker couldn't play because of an injury he could have worn a suit and sat on the bench.


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That's not really fair, to expect Ski to sit through (potentially) 5 or 6 CBI games? And I'm not familiar with hip pointers, but might sitting on a hard bench for a couple of hours slow recovery?

 

[tante]

That's not really fair, to expect Ski to sit through (potentially) 5 or 6 CBI games? And I'm not familiar with hip pointers, but might sitting on a hard bench for a couple of hours slow recovery?

It's sitting on a chair. He didn't get a hip replacement, I think he could have handled it.

 

[aghcsm]

It's sitting on a chair. He didn't get a hip replacement, I think he could have handled it.

Yeah, I suppose he has to sit in classes.

 

[absinthe]

I've never heard of a basketball player quitting on his team, rather than play in the post-season. Has that ever happened before?


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If it hasnt happened before it happened twice tonight, the leading score and best player for Gardner-webb also has elected not to play in this tournament and was not in the gym either.

 

[aghcsm]

If it hasnt happened before it happened twice tonight, the leading score and best player for Gardner-webb also has elected not to play in this tournament and was not in the gym either.

This seems strange to me. The CBI is designed for teams like G-W, whereas I can see why a CU player might skip it, especially under the circumstances Ski described.

 

[tante]

Yeah, I suppose he has to sit in classes.

maybe they bring him in a lounge chair. I guess they could have done that at the keg too.