Building the team from the inside out?

[Undefeated]

Let's not over-emphasize the "7 wins" thing as opposed to "6 wins" on a 12-game schedule. The 13th game that got added is Nicholls State. If that's not a win, the Buffs don't have any business talking about bowl games. We have to go 6-6 on our legit P5 team schedule of 9 Pac-12 teams, Hawai'i, CSU and UMass.

Sounds good and there is really nothing tangible that would disagree. But it's another week to prepare for a team not in the Pac 12. It's another week to expose players to injury. It's a bye week that we don't get. It's 13 straight weeks of practice and games, instead of getting 1, or even 2 byes. Say what you want about the 13th game only being Nicholls State, but it can indirectly have an affect on performance in other games.

 

[SINKRATZ]

Hawkins had us in a bowl at 6-6 with GB's players and he never did anything else. That was in the Big 12 which was nowhere near as competitive as the Pac 12. Hawkins continued to run the program into the ground with his awful recruiting, terrible relationships with high school coaches, and repeated mishandling of the QB position.

Winning 7 games (the only way CU will be bowl eligible next year) in the Pac 12 is not easy. Now, that might only have to be 3 P12 wins IF they go 4-0 in Non-Con, which is possible. However, winning 7 games next year (which would be the most by a CU team in in 10 years) in the strongest conference and division in college football, is not an easy task.

Look, I'm no fan of Hawkins. My point (maybe not clearly articulated) is that even an awful HC like Hawk made a bowl game, it's not that hard, mediocre teams make bowl games. But Sack is saying that we should have fired Hawk sooner, yet somehow he's OK bringing back MM even if he hasn't made a bowl game by year 5! It doesn't take 5 years to know if you have the right guy.

 

[Buffalo Brad]

Let's not over-emphasize the "7 wins" thing as opposed to "6 wins" on a 12-game schedule. The 13th game that got added is Nicholls State. If that's not a win, the Buffs don't have any business talking about bowl games. We have to go 6-6 on our legit P5 team schedule of 9 Pac-12 teams, Hawai'i, CSU and UMass.

Agree with the premise but unfortunately, I see Nicholls State as one of our 6. Not sure we make it in a 12 game schedule with the remaining 3 and our 9 game Pac schedule.

 

[leftybuff]

Look, I'm no fan of Hawkins. My point (maybe not clearly articulated) is that even an awful HC like Hawk made a bowl game, it's not that hard, mediocre teams make bowl games. But Sack is saying that we should have fired Hawk sooner, yet somehow he's OK bringing back MM even if he hasn't made a bowl game by year 5! It doesn't take 5 years to know if you have the right guy.

At the risk of speaking for sacky, the difference is Hawk inherited a team that had a roster of legitimate talent (Dizon, Jones, TWheat, Hypolite, Polumbus, Charles all went pro for instance) and the B12 was, and is, much weaker than the P12. Comparing those two situations is silly.

 

[SINKRATZ]

Sadly this is spot on.

In M2's first year we had some starters who not only would have not started on any other PAC team but would not have started on any other P5 team in the country. We had guys getting regular playing time who would not have been regular players in the MWC.

On top of that we had a team that not only learned to lose but accepted it and embraced it. We were the Washington Generals of college football, the set-up guys for everyone's jokes.

Some people think that M2 should have been able to come in, tell recruits that he was from Colorado and pass them the LOI to sign. It isn't something that just happens. The kids don't remember the top 5 rankings and the Heisman trophy year. As long as they can remember CU has been losing embarassing games.

Now some schools have made "miracle" turnarounds. Usually this involves a big name coach coming and playing fast and loose with the rules. We didn't have a big name coach willing to come in to take control of our train wreck. We have also learned from harsh experience that CU doesn't get the same kind of forgiveness for rules violations as schools like Ohio State, USC, etc. We cheat and the NCAA uses us for an example. Not something we want to risk, even if we were willing to compromise ourselves to win.

We are making big strides forward. M2's first year we were terrible on offense, defense, and special teams. Last year we had an offense that other than turnovers was easily competitive in the PAC12. Our special teams were better by season end but still need significant improvement. The defense still wasn't competitive and now we are looking for a new DC.

I'd love to see us win 7 and go to a bowl next year but don't see any way that happens. To win 4-5 legitimate games next year and give the others a solid game would be a serious step in the right direction again.

Jesus Mtn.

1st bold - who the hell is suggesting that? WTF are you talking about?

2nd bold - I wouldn't consider making a bowl game within 5 seasons a "miracle turnaround".

 

[MtnBuff]

Let's actually beat CSU before we start counting it as a win. Also remember that playing Hawaii there is a whole different story that playing them at home. On top of that you are asking for 3 PAC wins, we got how many last year.

Now granted we should have had at least a couple last year and the OOC games should be wins but until this team learns how to make them wins count me as sceptical of best case scenarios.

 

[SINKRATZ]

At the risk of speaking for sacky, the difference is Hawk inherited a team that had a roster of legitimate talent (Dizon, Jones, TWheat, Hypolite, Polumbus, Charles all went pro for instance) and the B12 was, and is, much weaker than the P12. Comparing those two situations is silly.

I'm not comparing them as coaches necessarily, but Sack is arguing that were in such bad shape because we kept Hawk that 5th season, yet he's advocating we keep Mac past 5 even without a bowl - how is that not making the exact same mistake?

 

[MtnBuff]

Jesus Mtn.

1st bold - who the hell is suggesting that? WTF are you talking about?

2nd bold - I wouldn't consider making a bowl game within 5 seasons a "miracle turnaround".

Please see Lefty's post above yours.

As bad as we were we almost might have been better of starting from scratch, at least we wouldn't have had to wade through the dead weight and bad attitudes that were on the roster.

As to making a bowl game in 5 seasons, we are just entering into season number 3. Let's see how it plays out, or are you counting the Embree years on M2's time.

 

[leftybuff]

I'm not comparing them as coaches necessarily, but Sack is arguing that were in such bad shape because we kept Hawk that 5th season, yet he's advocating we keep Mac past 5 even without a bowl - how is that not making the exact same mistake?

I dunno. I was convinced by October of 2008 Hawk could not find his ass with both hands and a flashlight, and his only goals were to cash checks and play his son. CU was on a clear downhill trajectory by then so it was clear to most, except DBT, DII danny needed to be fired at the end of '09.

MikMac has shown improvement. The team is better. But where D II Danny took over a competitive team in it's conference and turned them into a laughing stock. MikMac has taken over a laughingstock and at least improved to the point where they are not getting beat by a gazillion points every week. Now he has to produce W's, but they are going to come slowly. I would say 4-5 will be the high water mark for next year, after that, I think it is reasonable to expect 6 but it isn't unthinkable he would miss that mark even in 2016. After that, a bowl game in year five or I will likely be right beside you waving my pitchfork or torch, as a appropriate.

 

[sackman]

At the risk of speaking for sacky, the difference is Hawk inherited a team that had a roster of legitimate talent (Dizon, Jones, TWheat, Hypolite, Polumbus, Charles all went pro for instance) and the B12 was, and is, much weaker than the P12. Comparing those two situations is silly.

Well put. Yes. Comparing the two situations is ridiculous. The hole we were digging ourselves out of in 2006 was not nearly as big as the one we're in now.

 

[Bufffan68]

You've got to think about what MacIntyre walked into.

His first season, he had to move Jack Harris from RG to LT. Only had 2 seniors and 2 juniors on the OL. That's followed by having to take a sophomore just recovered from a broken foot and convert him from OG to LT for his second season.

On the DL, we just went through a spring practice with so few bodies available that the team couldn't run full practices or scrimmages. That gets followed by a season with freshmen logging a ton of snaps and no upperclassmen available to play DE.

What I'm glad to see is that we didn't see a reaction like under previous coaches where they over-signed one year and then left it virtually empty the next two. There have been some transfers and JUCOs to balance out the classes along with a roster commitment to make sure that these types of situations don't arise again. If you look at the OL, for example, there is 1 senior in 2015 (Nembot). Behind that, we've got 4 juniors, 4 sophs, 3 RS-Frosh & 4 true frosh. Finally. I expect the DL and LB numbers to balance out in a way that makes sense once the 2015 redshirts and position changes shake out (expect Shaver, Hasselbach and Gilbert to all get looks at LB this spring). I'd expect at least 1 of the 3 JUCO DLs to redshirt this year.

I always try to remember the complete **** sandwich Mac inherited, and nothing says it better than the DL. I see RichRod, Graham, even Sykes having success quickly, but those programs actually had some talent and depth to work with. We had none...zero...zilch.

That said, Mac will be in his third year and I expect to see more Ws...we've seen the improvement his first 2 years and that was okay to me...but now he has to win. I see the O being better and we're beefing up on D, so if I were capable of hope with this program, then I'd have hope for next year.

 

[Buffnik]

Well put. Yes. Comparing the two situations is ridiculous. The hole we were digging ourselves out of in 2006 was not nearly as big as the one we're in now.

:nod:

2006 had a great OL (Fenton & Daniels were Outland candidates + Polumbus) , an excellent defense (Thad, Dizon, Wright, Billingsley, T-Wheat, Jones & others), a very good college RB (Charles), decent WRs (Robinson, Williams & Sprague) and an All-American kicker (Crosby).

There is absolutely no excuse for that team going 2-10 with only 3 ranked opponents on the schedule. None.

 

[Bufffan68]

:nod:

2006 had a great OL (Fenton & Daniels were Outland candidates + Polumbus) , an excellent defense (Thad, Dizon, Wright, Billingsley, T-Wheat, Jones & others), a very good college RB (Charles), decent WRs (Robinson, Williams & Sprague) and an All-American kicker (Crosby).

There is absolutely no excuse for that team going 2-10 with only 3 ranked opponents on the schedule. None.

Can we not talk about he who shall not be named? :lol:

 

[dply]

:nod:

2006 had a great OL (Fenton & Daniels were Outland candidates + Polumbus) , an excellent defense (Thad, Dizon, Wright, Billingsley, T-Wheat, Jones & others), a very good college RB (Charles), decent WRs (Robinson, Williams & Sprague) and an All-American kicker (Crosby).

There is absolutely no excuse for that team going 2-10 with only 3 ranked opponents on the schedule. None.

rabid goldfish too!

 

[MtnBuff]

:nod:

2006 had a great OL (Fenton & Daniels were Outland candidates + Polumbus) , an excellent defense (Thad, Dizon, Wright, Billingsley, T-Wheat, Jones & others), a very good college RB (Charles), decent WRs (Robinson, Williams & Sprague) and an All-American kicker (Crosby).

There is absolutely no excuse for that team going 2-10 with only 3 ranked opponents on the schedule. None.

And recruiting should have been much, much easier as we were not far removed from conference championships and significant bowl games. The name Colorado meant something.

 

[Duff Man]

We will know about all we need to know in 2016. The roster is heavily tilted to that year.

 

[CUFan]

:nod:

2006 had a great OL (Fenton & Daniels were Outland candidates + Polumbus) , an excellent defense (Thad, Dizon, Wright, Billingsley, T-Wheat, Jones & others), a very good college RB (Charles), decent WRs (Robinson, Williams & Sprague) and an All-American kicker (Crosby).

There is absolutely no excuse for that team going 2-10 with only 3 ranked opponents on the schedule. None.

What was the story behind White and Cox being run off (besides Cody getting PT the following year)? Jackson should not have been our primary QB.

 

[skibum]

It's not the number of seasons that Hawkins had coached. The problem with not firing him in 2009 was that literally everyone knew that he was on the hot seat; by the season's midpoint there were serious questions about whether he would retained at season's end. What do you think that did to the 2010 recruiting class?

By keeping him the extra year, we essentially had two consecutive "lost" recruiting classes. 2010 and 2011. The 2010 class were Seniors / RS Juniors this year. I remember a couple allbuffs posters very confidently predicting that the 2014 season was going to be terrible way back in Nov/Dec 2009, due primarily to what was going to be predictably poor 2010 & 2011 recruiting classes. They were right.

What no one could have predicted at the end of 2009 was that the coach that would replace Hawkins would turn out to be such an unmitigated disaster, and that just made an already bad situation that much worse...

 

[MtnBuff]

It's not the number of seasons that Hawkins had coached. The problem with not firing him in 2009 was that literally everyone knew that he was on the hot seat; by the season's midpoint there were serious questions about whether he would retained at season's end. What do you think that did to the 2010 recruiting class?

By keeping him the extra year, we essentially had two consecutive "lost" recruiting classes. 2010 and 2011. The 2010 class were Seniors / RS Juniors this year. I remember a couple allbuffs posters very confidently predicting that the 2014 season was going to be terrible way back in Nov/Dec 2009, due primarily to what was going to be predictably poor 2010 & 2011 recruiting classes. They were right.

What no one could have predicted at the end of 2009 was that the coach that would replace Hawkins would turn out to be such an unmitigated disaster, and that just made an already bad situation that much worse...

Absolutely correct. A chain of events to put us where we are today.

 

[fatbuff]

It's not the number of seasons that Hawkins had coached. The problem with not firing him in 2009 was that literally everyone knew that he was on the hot seat; by the season's midpoint there were serious questions about whether he would retained at season's end. What do you think that did to the 2010 recruiting class?

By keeping him the extra year, we essentially had two consecutive "lost" recruiting classes. 2010 and 2011. The 2010 class were Seniors / RS Juniors this year. I remember a couple allbuffs posters very confidently predicting that the 2014 season was going to be terrible way back in Nov/Dec 2009, due primarily to what was going to be predictably poor 2010 & 2011 recruiting classes. They were right.

What no one could have predicted at the end of 2009 was that the coach that would replace Hawkins would turn out to be such an unmitigated disaster, and that just made an already bad situation that much worse...

With hindsight, it could have easily been predicted. I remember posting when the hire was announced that I felt that there was a 50 % chance of Embo working out, and a 50% chance of it being an unmitigated disaster. My gut feeling was that it was really 90/10 that being cheap would bite us in the ass, but I couldn't admit it to myself. You don't just take a few years off of recruiting and then jump back into being competitive. I still want to see DiSteffano hung from the rafters of the UMC to be used as a piñata.

 

[slider]

How did I miss this thread? Also :lol: at Undefeated.

I don't exactly have lofty expectations, and the fact that we're falling short of those is quite telling

 

[Jens1893]

Yet, according to some, MM should already have us competing for Pac 12 Championships

You are a complete ****ing idiot.

 

[Darth Snow]

Yet, according to some, MM should already have us competing for Pac 12 Championships

You should go hang out at buffscoop.

 

[absinthe]

Yet, according to some, MM should already have us competing for Pac 12 Championships

Smarmy and stupid is no way to go through life son.

 

[patebuff]

Smarmy and stupid is no way to go through life son.

Isn't that the allbuffs mission statement?

 

[Undefeated]

Like I've said previously, my statement about P12 Championship expectations was an over-exaggeration of the expectations that I feel some on these boards have for MM and his staff. Do I really believe anyone in their right mind truly has expectations set that high in year 2? No. It was a statement of hyperbole, people.

 

[Gary Indiana]

Like I've said previously, my statement about P12 Championship expectations was an over-exaggeration of the expectations that I feel some on these boards have for MM and his staff. Do I really believe anyone in their right mind truly has expectations set that high in year 2? No. It was a statement of hyperbole, people.

I have concluded that you are a sock for an admin designed to drive posts during the off-season. Much like Woody Paige for ESPN, you play the role of contrarian to boost views/posts. Darth, are you in there? Buffnik?

 

[The Ogre]

I have concluded that you are a sock for an admin designed to drive posts during the off-season. Much like Woody Paige for ESPN, you play the role of contrarian to boost views/posts. Darth, are you in there? Buffnik?

Snow doesn't have to "play" contrarian - he are one, and Nik is full of enough thoughts of his own to bother with a stunt like that. No, Jiminy, I think Un is a real boy.

 

[sackman]

At the risk of being accused of using Undefeated as a sock, I think we're being a little hard on the guy. He's entitled to his opinion, just like the rest of us are. There are a lot of people on this site that I don't agree with. It's OK to have a differing opinion and it's OK to voice it on this site. I'd encourage folks to avoid the personal stuff and engage with reasoned responses.


Oh Hell. what am I saying? This is allbuffs. No room for that kind of thing here.

 

[Undefeated]

You are a complete ****ing idiot.

Noted. 'ppreciate this contribution.