Class of '12 Guard Misses

[J-R-K]

I.E the same year we signed Stalzer, Jenkins, and Talton.

Players we came in "2nd place" for:

- Buddy Hield: 17 ppg at Oklahoma

- Tyrone Wallace: 12 ppg at Cal

- Damyean Dotson: 11 ppg at Oregon

- Alex Caruso: 9 ppg at Texas A&M

Players from Colorado that we never offered:

- Chris Hansen: 17 ppg at Idaho State

- Josh Adams: 12 ppg at Wyoming

- Tanner Samson: 10 ppg at Elon

 

[jwhite17]

Crazy on how close we were to getting those guys. Think how much better our team would be with Hield, Wallace, Dotson or Caruso instead of Talton/Stalzer? Even one of those guys would have made a huge difference in guard depth.

 

[wyobuff]

I.E the same year we signed Stalzer, Jenkins, and Talton.
Players from Colorado that we never offered:

- Chris Hansen: 17 ppg at Idaho State

- Josh Adams: 12 ppg at Wyoming

- Riley Grabau: 12 ppg at Wyoming

- Tanner Samson: 10 ppg at Elon

We didnt offer these guys for a reason.....How many points would these guys be scoring against the arizona's and the UCLAs of the P12, vs as opposed to the sheep, Ut ST Aggies, etc in the MW?

 

[absinthe]

I.E the same year we signed Stalzer, Jenkins, and Talton.

Players from Colorado that we never offered:

- Chris Hansen: 17 ppg at Idaho State

- Josh Adams: 12 ppg at Wyoming

- Riley Grabau: 12 ppg at Wyoming

- Tanner Samson: 10 ppg at Elon

You cant even get the classes they were in right, stop trolling.

 

[J-R-K]

You cant even get the classes they were in right, stop trolling.

Grabau was a mistake my bad, will edit, Hansen was class of '11 but didn't end up signing until spring '12.

 

[absinthe]

Grabau was a mistake my bad, will edit, Hansen was class of '11 but didn't end up signing until spring '12.

So two of the guys on your list would have been in the same class as Booker and Dinwiddie - no thanks to any changes there. There will be some misses, it is the nature of recruiting jsut re-hashing it for the sake of god knows what is pointless. Here are the 40 minute adjusted numbers for each player

Adams - 14.8ppg - 3.5rb - 3.3A - 3.1 to
Samson - 14.4ppg - 5.6rb - 2.4A - .8to
Talton - 9.5ppg - 4.2rb - 3.6A - 2.7to

SOS:
Elon - 233
Wyo - 120
CU - 13

So the guys we "missed" on in state are averaging 5pts more per 40 minutes on teams with massively easier schedules.

 

[J-R-K]

We didnt offer these guys for a reason.....How many points would these guys be scoring against the arizona's and the UCLAs of the P12, vs as opposed to the sheep, Ut ST Aggies, etc in the MW?

Level of competition does matter but not as much as you may think. Look at out of conference games vs mid majors, plenty of their players still have big games vs bigger programs and on the flip side its not like mediocre players suddenly turns into superman because they're playing a team from the Big Sky. Plus players who transfer from on level to another often don't have significantly different stats at those respective levels. I assure you that Eli Stalzer wouldn't be anywhere near Chris Hansen's 17 ppg if he were at Idaho State.

 

[absinthe]

Level of competition does matter but not as much as you may think. Look at out of conference games vs mid majors, plenty of their players still have big games vs bigger programs and on the flip side its not like mediocre players suddenly turns into superman because they're playing a team from the Big Sky. Plus players who transfer from on level to another often don't have significantly different stats at those respective levels. I assure you that Eli Stalzer wouldn't be anywhere near Chris Hansen's 17 ppg if he were at Idaho State.

265th SOS

 

[buffaholic]

Tad recruits like he's in the WAC I guess.

 

[YngC]

There is absolutely no point in these types of comparisons.

Take Josh Adams for example. He's a 6'1/6'2 shooting guard, who's more so known for his athletic ability than shooting, dribbling, passing, rebounding or defense. In conference for Wyoming, he's scored 15 or more points just five times, two of those coming against the top half of the conference. So the question you have to ask, based on the logic of SOS, how would he do in the Pac-12? Now, I'm not saying he couldn't turn in a nice night against Wazzu, OSU, UW...but on a night in and night out basis, his athletic ability wouldn't be able to overcome his relative skill/size for his position. In the MWC, he's going against a lot of guys that are similar to him at his position. In the P12, he's going against Ty Wallace, Jordan Adams, Normal Powell, Nick Johnson, Jermaine Marshall, Delon Wright and many others.

 

[slider]

ITT we learn JRK expects Boyle to bat 1.000 on recruits. I'm not a fan of Stalzer either but it's ridiculous to not expect a couple misses on players

 

[absinthe]

There is absolutely no point in these types of comparisons.

Take Josh Adams for example. He's a 6'1/6'2 shooting guard, who's more so known for his athletic ability than shooting, dribbling, passing, rebounding or defense. In conference for Wyoming, he's scored 15 or more points just five times, two of those coming against the top half of the conference. So the question you have to ask, based on the logic of SOS, how would he do in the Pac-12? Now, I'm not saying he couldn't turn in a nice night against Wazzu, OSU, UW...but on a night in and night out basis, his athletic ability wouldn't be able to overcome his relative skill/size for his position. In the MWC, he's going against a lot of guys that are similar to him at his position. In the P12, he's going against Ty Wallace, Jordan Adams, Normal Powell, Nick Johnson, Jermaine Marshall, Delon Wright and many others.

this

 

[GoBuffs08]

Tad recruits like he's in the WAC I guess.

no ****. i'm sick of him bringing in players that are not P12 talent. Dinwiddie and Booker stink, and Josh Scott clearly should be playing for Elon or Idaho State where he could at least put up some decent numbers.

 

[jgisland]

Where's our new basketball mod to take action on these threads?

 

[tante]

so here is a good lesson for everyone. Buddy Hield was absolutely a lights out shooter in high school. His freshman year he shot 23.8% from deep and is now up to 39.5% this year. Shooters take time to develop in college. Also he is taking 13.4 shots per game so his a little over 1 point per shot.

 

[J-R-K]

So two of the guys on your list would have been in the same class as Booker and Dinwiddie - no thanks to any changes there. There will be some misses, it is the nature of recruiting jsut re-hashing it for the sake of god knows what is pointless.

Well Grabau is off the list and again Hansen was a '12 signee not '11 so none on the list would be in place of Ski or Spence. As far as this being "pointless", we're struggling, its happening in large part because of guard play, and the three guards we signed in '12 all appear to be mistakes so it seems like a pretty salient topic.

I know misses are the nature of recruiting but coming in 2nd for 4 guys at the same position who turn out to be pretty good players, particularity Hield, is pretty rare and notable considering what we ended up with. This isn't even intended to be an anit-Tad thread, just an observation, good for him for identifying talent.

265th SOS

:lol: You really think 17 ppg is completely invalidated because level of competition? You don't think he would still be a double-digit scorer if he were here, and you think Eli or XT or Jenkins (who was behind King) would be noticeably better if they were in the Big Sky? Maybe you should look at the Jeremy Adam's stats this year which I just posted.

 

[YngC]

and the three guards we signed in '12 all appear to be mistakes so it seems like a pretty salient topic.

And what exactly qualifies you to make this statement? Or even more simply, why do you think they're all misses?

Chris Jenkins: Would have played valuable minutes for this team as a REDSHIRT FRESHMAN. In two more years, he would have been a double digit scorer. He was not behind George King, and he did not leave CU because of playing time concerns.

Xavier Talton: A true sophomore who has turned in more positive performances in his first stretch as a starter than negative ones. Developing into a knock down shooter and secondary ball handler.

Eli Stalzer: Yes, he was a miss.

 

[YngC]

:lol: You really think 17 ppg is completely invalidated because level of competition? You don't think he would still be a double-digit scorer if he were here, and you think Eli or XT or Jenkins (who was behind King) would be noticeably better if they were in the Big Sky? Maybe you should look at the Jeremy Adam's stats this year which I just posted.

Here's another question. Have you ever watched Hansen play personally, in high school or college? If so, can you tell us what he did in high school (don't give me stats) that warranted a look from bigger schools? Also, what he's improved on the most while in college?

If you haven't seen him, then just stop commenting on it.

 

[Scotch]

Talton is not a mistake JRK. He's a 4 year player that is still developing.

 

[Buffnik]

Mostly what I'm getting out of the OP is that Tad offered some really good players for 2012 and we lost some recruiting battles in the Pac-12.

Oh, and that we'd be happier with our team right now if we'd signed Wallace with XT. OK. Wish it had happened.

 

[J-R-K]

Here's another question. Have you ever watched Hansen play personally, in high school or college? If so, can you tell us what he did in high school (don't give me stats) that warranted a look from bigger schools? Also, what he's improved on the most while in college?

If you haven't seen him, then just stop commenting on it.

I wasn't saying we should have offered him, hindsight is 20/20 just pointing out an in-state guy who didn't offer has turned into a very good player. Too your question, Tad's the one with the seven-figure salary, not me. And he has that for the specific reason of being able to identify, project, and land talent, i.e. Hansen (which I'm not saying he can't do, just didn't in this instance) who regardless of what he did in HS was at least good enough to end up at a D-1 school.

And what exactly qualifies you to make this statement? Or even more simply, why do you think they're all misses?

Chris Jenkins: Would have played valuable minutes for this team as a REDSHIRT FRESHMAN. In two more years, he would have been a double digit scorer. He was not behind George King, and he did not leave CU because of playing time concerns.

Xavier Talton: A true sophomore who has turned in more positive performances in his first stretch as a starter than negative ones. Developing into a knock down shooter and secondary ball handler.

Eli Stalzer: Yes, he was a miss.

I said "appear" didn't state anything in certain terms. We'll see what happens over the next few years. The fact that Jenkins transferred makes him a miss regardless of how he turn out, also the fact that he originally had no BCS offers, then red-shirted, then ended up at a mid-major after transferring are not great indicators of talent, could be a good player nonetheless, like Hansen, we'll see. At the very least none of these three seem to be anything great, which is after all the goal of recruiting not just landing "solid" players and we don't even know if they will reach that level. As someone in the basketball world your opinions are more valid then mine, but that doesn't necessarily mean you're right either...

 

[Darth Snow]

I like the new yngc

 

[jcatcher]

Eli Stalzer: Yes, he was a miss.

Stalzer hasn't missed a shot since the UW game on 2/9 (he's 6/6), with only two turnovers and three steals. I think Tad is pretty happy with his play since Spencer went down and is glad he has him, even if his upside is minimal.

 

[jgisland]

As someone in the basketball world your opinions are more valid then mine, but that doesn't necessarily mean you're right either...

So that means that

"I assure you that Eli Stalzer wouldn't be anywhere near Chris Hansen's 17 ppg if he were at Idaho State."

may not be necessarily right either....

 

[Darth Snow]

Jrks response was disappointing, even for him

 

[wyobuff]

Do you think bill self is still kicking himself for missing out on alec? Or tad is still kicking himself for missing out on shane larkin or jordan loveridge?

 

[absinthe]

Well Grabau is off the list and again Hansen was a '12 signee not '11 so none on the list would be in place of Ski or Spence. As far as this being "pointless", we're struggling, its happening in large part because of guard play, and the three guards we signed in '12 all appear to be mistakes so it seems like a pretty salient topic.

I know misses are the nature of recruiting but coming in 2nd for 4 guys at the same position who turn out to be pretty good players, particularity Hield, is pretty rare and notable considering what we ended up with. This isn't even intended to be an anit-Tad thread, just an observation, good for him for identifying talent.


:lol: You really think 17 ppg is completely invalidated because level of competition? You don't think he would still be a double-digit scorer if he were here, and you think Eli or XT or Jenkins (who was behind King) would be noticeably better if they were in the Big Sky? Maybe you should look at the Jeremy Adam's stats this year which I just posted.

Your picking and choosing points from your own arguments now, that should tell you how poor of a post it was.

Even though Hansen signed in 2012 he played a year at Northwest college so eligibility wise he's in Ski/Dinwiddie's class he was highschool class of 2011. That means he is a year older and more developed than any of the three you keep bringing up, so the question if you want to keep harping on Hansen should be: can Jenkins or Talton as juniors average 17ppg against the 265th worst schedule in the country as their team's primary offensive option is a **** conference? Yeah they could.

As for Stalzer - even if he was a hero he'd never average 17ppg on any team it was not then and will not ever be his game. Did Boyle probably miss on this scholly by your definition? certainly. But if you think a guy like Hansen (a marginal athlete who is a gunner, not quick enough to be a guard in our conference, too short to be a forward, and too slow to be either - and with a usage rate that would take shots away from guys like Scott/Dinwiddie/Booker/XJ) would over the course of his career be of more value to the team than a role playing PG who can step in? then i dont know what to tell you. Hansen might modify his game with stars around him but as it is right now with his usage rate, his turnover rate that makes "bad" Booker look good he'd actually detract from this team as opposed to contributing very little.

 

[YngC]

I wasn't saying we should have offered him, hindsight is 20/20 just pointing out an in-state guy who didn't offer has turned into a very good player. Too your question, Tad's the one with the seven-figure salary, not me. And he has that for the specific reason of being able to identify, project, and land talent, i.e. Hansen (which I'm not saying he can't do, just didn't in this instance) who regardless of what he did in HS was at least good enough to end up at a D-1 school.



I said "appear" didn't state anything in certain terms. We'll see what happens over the next few years. The fact that Jenkins transferred makes him a miss regardless of how he turn out, also the fact that he originally had no BCS offers, then red-shirted, then ended up at a mid-major after transferring are not great indicators of talent, could be a good player nonetheless, like Hansen, we'll see. At the very least none of these three seem to be anything great, which is after all the goal of recruiting not just landing "solid" players and we don't even know if they will reach that level. As someone in the basketball world your opinions are more valid then mine, but that doesn't necessarily mean you're right either...

Here's the thing, you're being inconsistent. I know I'm not automatically right, but you're using a lot of definite words for a situation that is anything but that.

- You say Tad is the one paid to evaluate and sign talent, not you. But then, you state that Hansen--by virtue of simply being a Division I player--is a prospect that Tad missed on, a judgement levied by you and only you. That means, you are evaluating Hansen (without ever seeing him, since you didn't answer yes to my question) to be better than any guards in the '12 class that CU brought in. This makes no sense and you're contradicting yourself.

- Then again, you talk about Jenkins not having any BCS offers and landing at a Mid-Major being a reflection of his poor talent level. Yet, in this entire argument, you're attempting to tell us that a player that landed at one of the worst D1 programs in the country (they are 2nd to last in the Big Sky for God's sake), who had no BCS offers and landed at a LOW-MAJOR school was somehow a miss by Tad? Do you see how this makes absolutely no sense?...like, not even the slightest bit of sense at all.

Now, I'm not trying to make the argument that Hansen couldn't have found success at Colorado. Who knows, maybe he would found himself a nice roll as a 8th or 9th man spot up shooter who forces CU to play their horrendous zone defense because he can't guard anyone in the Pac-12. There are worse careers then that. But none of your arguments make any sense to support this idea.

However, you're trying to talk about him being good enough to play at Colorado 1.) By using a set of arguments that end up contradicting each other, 2.) Misevaluating how recruiting at the High-major level is done and finally, 3.) Having NEVER SEEN HIM PLAY.

Hell, while we're at it, let's ask home state High major coaches why they didn't sign the top 10 scorers in Division 2.

 

[buffaholic]

While I've been anti-Stalzer for some time, I wouldn't go so far as to say he was a miss. I think he has been what Tad envisioned, which was a backup point guard who he'd rely on in an emergency. At the time Eli got offered, we were transitioning away from Tomlinson to Spencer Dinwiddie, and we didn't really have any other points on the roster. I think Tad liked Talton's upside, but knew that Talton would crumble under PAC12 pressure handling the ball in year 1. Tad couldn't afford a bad year because he didn't have a reliable point guard to add depth, so he did what he felt he needed to do and that was build a bridge until he could get to Dom.

Eli sat this year as Talton was able to win more of Tad's favor, but he's been valuable now that Spencer is out.

All in all, I don't think Tad would have done it different, given the position he was in.

 

[J-R-K]

- You say Tad is the one paid to evaluate and sign talent, not you. But then, you state that Hansen--by virtue of simply being a Division I player--is a prospect that Tad missed on, a judgement levied by you and only you. That means, you are evaluating Hansen (without ever seeing him, since you didn't answer yes to my question) to be better than any guards in the '12 class that CU brought in. This makes no sense and you're contradicting yourself.

I don't doubt that Hansen turning out to be a good player is a hindsight is 20/20 type deal, the local mid-major programs passed on him as well. That being said the fact that CU knew of him, decided not offer, and he turned out to be a very good player means we missed.

Then again, you talk about Jenkins not having any BCS offers and landing at a Mid-Major being a reflection of his poor talent level. Yet, in this entire argument, you're attempting to tell us that a player that landed at one of the worst D1 programs in the country (they are 2nd to last in the Big Sky for God's sake), who had no BCS offers and landed at a LOW-MAJOR school was somehow a miss by Tad? Do you see how this makes absolutely no sense?...like, not even the slightest bit of sense at all.

In the exact post you're responding to I said that Jenkins could turn out to be a good player...just like Hansen did. Reading comp....You also seem very hung up on Hansen's HS performance for some reason, I'm focusing on the fact that at the D-1 level he's going for 17 ppg.

Who knows, maybe he would found himself a nice roll as a 8th or 9th man

A 17 ppg scorer is equivalent, excuse me, maybe if were lucky equivalent to Mills/King/Stalzer? To each his own...