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Depth Chart

Darth Snow said:
Holic points out the dame example as before as evidence. Good lord. Holic, should cu stop recruiting anyone thats a high 3 star or above?
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Not only that, he admits stars are related to evaluation by competent staff while railing against stars. "Yes, more 5 stars are drafted than 3 stars. But, more 5 stars are 5 stars because the really good programs are interested in them and the really good programs know how to assess talent." Or is he saying that's only true for 5 stars, not 4 stars or 3 stars taken by those programs (who almost never take 2 and below, except for kickers).
 
I did not say that stars are related to evaluation by competent staff. I said that stars are related to big time offers from big time programs. Certainly Alabama is credible and if they are offering, it's legit. Not sure if Florida (at this point in time) means as much, but the services value those offers as much as they always did.

But there are lots of competent staffs out there for evaluation, but an offer from say Nevada doesn't impact Rivals. They will react to a USC offer. In my opinion, I don't believe Kiffen can evaluate as well as Nevada's HC. So there's issues in the way stars are handed out.

It's a dead horse. We finally have something else to talk about, so I'll cease and desist.
 
logical flaws in holics thinking are very obvious. Pointing out flaws doesn't mean they are without value. Very few things in life are perfect. That doesn't mean we should stop living. SEe?!!? logic.
 
Buffnik said:
I was answering a question.

And all of those offensive guys I listed offers from were 2* or 3* prospects. But some peers were high on them. If I'm making a point, it's that CU unquestionably has a BCS roster with plenty of talent. Hawkins, Embree and MacIntyre all signed some guys other big time programs wanted (or brought them in as transfers). They also signed a number of guys that the better western non-BCS D1A programs were all over. And they all found some talent others missed.

In short, I see a big talent gap between what we have versus what USC, UCLA, Oregon, Stanford and Washington have on their rosters. But I don't think we're significantly outgunned in any of our other games.

And I'm starting to believe that our defense may actually be top half of the Pac-12. (As crazy as I thought that talk was over the summer.)
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WTF??? Six weeks ago, the negative Nancies (not 'nik) here insisted CU had "no talent", the players were "terrible", they "sucked" and would "be lucky to repeat last season's record!"---particularly along the OL and in the DB.

Gosh, I guess a little organization and real coaching CAN make a big difference, in "perception" even.
 
CUAviator said:
Outliers??
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Aw crap. Thanks, was on beer#3.

scotth92 said:
Please tell me you are not suggesting we should set up a strategy of not recruiting higher rated talent.

An interesting and thoughtful book. Don't get me wrong - I agree persistence, belief, attitude, and effort can go a long way. But it doesn't trump ultimately getting better by having more talent.
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Took the war stuff out b/c I wasn't thinking about that part of the book.
No, I'm not suggesting we stop recruiting higher stars by any means. What I was pointing out was Gladwell's point where individuals who have that "break" go their way (Bill Gates example) can really benefit later on in life.

Take Gillam - 2* from small town high school just started playing ball but a hell of an athlete. His break (as of now) is MacIntyre's blanketing California schools, even the small ones and earning a scholarship. Who knows where it goes after that?
Now let's put Gillam in a big time California school with the glitz and glamour. #1 He would have to stand out to get a spot on the team - assume he does, he gets a BIG break with the media exposure in the area, plus camps, plus recruiting services and I bet you see him as a high 3, 4 star athlete. I happen to think there are some of those highly rated players out there that are getting their stars due to media exposure and highlight reel plays against a lesser opponent in a high classification division. Think Evergreen High School in 5A Jeffco in the 80s/90s - they sucked, and I bet there were a lot of highlight reels made at their expense.

Bottom Line: We need to go after both types of star-rated athletes. Hopefully be the school that gives that 2 star/unrated kid from Dolores a chance but also the one that goes in and wins the battle for a guy like Jones or Ballage. I believe we have the right coaching staff in place who does the homework to find the talent at the smaller schools, now we just need them to close the deal on the 4-5 star types. Hasn't happened yet, but I think it will happen eventually.
 
It seems pretty simple to me. McIntyre loves him some 6'3"-6'5" 200-250 lb. athletes who can run. He'll sign as many of these guys as he can get. A lot of these guys will be 3 or 4 stars, some won't be, McIntyre will go after both types.
 
Given HCMM's propensity to change positions to better utilize players skill sets and Yuri's raw athletic ability, what are the odds we see Yuri's back in a different position as a RS soph in '14? By no means am I closing the door on him as a db but he may be a better fit elsewhere possibly as a WR/RB "slash" guy.
 
HotRack said:
Aw crap. Thanks, was on beer#3.



Took the war stuff out b/c I wasn't thinking about that part of the book.
No, I'm not suggesting we stop recruiting higher stars by any means. What I was pointing out was Gladwell's point where individuals who have that "break" go their way (Bill Gates example) can really benefit later on in life.

Take Gillam - 2* from small town high school just started playing ball but a hell of an athlete. His break (as of now) is MacIntyre's blanketing California schools, even the small ones and earning a scholarship. Who knows where it goes after that?
Now let's put Gillam in a big time California school with the glitz and glamour. #1 He would have to stand out to get a spot on the team - assume he does, he gets a BIG break with the media exposure in the area, plus camps, plus recruiting services and I bet you see him as a high 3, 4 star athlete. I happen to think there are some of those highly rated players out there that are getting their stars due to media exposure and highlight reel plays against a lesser opponent in a high classification division. Think Evergreen High School in 5A Jeffco in the 80s/90s - they sucked, and I bet there were a lot of highlight reels made at their expense.

Bottom Line: We need to go after both types of star-rated athletes. Hopefully be the school that gives that 2 star/unrated kid from Dolores a chance but also the one that goes in and wins the battle for a guy like Jones or Ballage. I believe we have the right coaching staff in place who does the homework to find the talent at the smaller schools, now we just need them to close the deal on the 4-5 star types. Hasn't happened yet, but I think it will happen eventually.
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Just so everyone knows, this is not true.
 
HotRack said:
Aw crap. Thanks, was on beer#3.



Took the war stuff out b/c I wasn't thinking about that part of the book.
No, I'm not suggesting we stop recruiting higher stars by any means. What I was pointing out was Gladwell's point where individuals who have that "break" go their way (Bill Gates example) can really benefit later on in life.

Take Gillam - 2* from small town high school just started playing ball but a hell of an athlete. His break (as of now) is MacIntyre's blanketing California schools, even the small ones and earning a scholarship. Who knows where it goes after that?
Now let's put Gillam in a big time California school with the glitz and glamour. #1 He would have to stand out to get a spot on the team - assume he does, he gets a BIG break with the media exposure in the area, plus camps, plus recruiting services and I bet you see him as a high 3, 4 star athlete. I happen to think there are some of those highly rated players out there that are getting their stars due to media exposure and highlight reel plays against a lesser opponent in a high classification division. Think Evergreen High School in 5A Jeffco in the 80s/90s - they sucked, and I bet there were a lot of highlight reels made at their expense.

Bottom Line: We need to go after both types of star-rated athletes. Hopefully be the school that gives that 2 star/unrated kid from Dolores a chance but also the one that goes in and wins the battle for a guy like Jones or Ballage. I believe we have the right coaching staff in place who does the homework to find the talent at the smaller schools, now we just need them to close the deal on the 4-5 star types. Hasn't happened yet, but I think it will happen eventually.
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I'm going to simplify this and say the following:
1) Coaches need to do their own evaluation of talent
2) They need to recruit the most talented players they can get to commit
3) Most of those players will be higher rated, but they need to be successful in identifying lower rated players that can compete, too

Got it.
 
Recruiting the 2 and 3 star sleepers is a good way to build a program thats at the bottom. You find some good players, build depth, and fight your way to respectability with those guys. But... we arent going to be competing for conference titles with 2 and 3 star players. Not in the Pac 12 anyway.
 
HotRack said:
Saw in a recent thread here that he had "just" started playing as junior. Sorry of my use of the word "just" was not to your liking. ****ing grammar police around here.
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The point is that's not true. He has been playing football since he was six.
 
Medford M. said:
Recruiting the 2 and 3 star sleepers is a good way to build a program thats at the bottom. You find some good players, build depth, and fight your way to respectability with those guys. But... we arent going to be competing for conference titles with 2 and 3 star players. Not in the Pac 12 anyway.
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Where in the living hell **** did I say you BUILD your program on 2/3 stars - I DIDN'T. I said there are kids out there that get ranked in the two/three star levels due to lack of exposure (i.e small school,) and you need to keep your eyes out for them and pick them up as in the example of Awuzie and Gillam.

When we get better and garner more attention, then those are great guys to round out a class, but simple fact is, the 4/5 stars aren't even sniffing us right now, do this staff has to work harder. Hopefully only for a short time.

scotth92 summarized my point well (Marines don't talk much, Navy guys more verbose :smile2:)

BTW - for every guy like Jordon Dizon or Scotty McKnight (3 stars at best I believe) there's a Darrell Scott or Lynn Katoa to even things out.
 
HotRack said:
Where in the living hell **** did I say you BUILD your program on 2/3 stars - I DIDN'T. I said there are kids out there that get ranked in the two/three star levels due to lack of exposure (i.e small school,) and you need to keep your eyes out for them and pick them up as in the example of Awuzie and Gillam.

When we get better and garner more attention, then those are great guys to round out a class, but simple fact is, the 4/5 stars aren't even sniffing us right now, do this staff has to work harder. Hopefully only for a short time.

scotth92 summarized my point well (Marines don't talk much, Navy guys more verbose :smile2:)

BTW - for every guy like Jordon Dizon or Scotty McKnight (3 stars at best I believe) there's a Darrell Scott or Lynn Katoa to even things out.
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For every Darrell Scott or Lynn Katoa there's hundreds of 2*s that didn't work out as well, that's the problem. This isn't a 1:1 thing.

Also, buffaholic is right. This is not an exact science. What he doesn't seem to accept is that there is strong correlation behind higher level recruiting and winning. He can talk about the amazing scouting NDSU and Nevada does, but at the end of the day, teams that recruit well beat those teams by 50.
 
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Gillis did not play HS football until he was a Jr iirc. But he did play as a little guy fwiw.

Total coaching to date falls well below the level at a 5A top program no doubt..
 
White_Rabbit said:
For every Darrell Scott or Lynn Katoa there's hundreds of 2*s that didn't work out as well, that's the problem. This isn't a 1:1 thing.
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Again, where do I say to BUILD the program on the two and three around here? I don't.
****ing can't win to lose around here.

This staff has to do more work than everyone else right now. Plain and simple.
 
The extreme recruiting arguments from both sides on this site are almost non-sensical now.
 
HotRack said:
Where in the living hell **** did I say you BUILD your program on 2/3 stars - I DIDN'T. I said there are kids out there that get ranked in the two/three star levels due to lack of exposure (i.e small school,) and you need to keep your eyes out for them and pick them up as in the example of Awuzie and Gillam.
NWhen we get better and garner more attention, then those are great guys to round out a class, but simple fact is, the 4/5 stars aren't even sniffing us right now, do this staff has to work harder. Hopefully only for a short time.

scotth92 summarized my point well (Marines don't talk much, Navy guys more verbose :smile2:)

BTW - for every guy like Jordon Dizon or Scotty McKnight (3 stars at best I believe) there's a Darrell Scott or Lynn Katoa to even things out.
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Dude. I didnt say you said that. Thats what I'm saying. We are at a point as a program, where we jave to rely on getting mostly under recruited guys to build the roster from the ground up.

I agree with your post here.
 
There are a couple different issues when talking about recruiting. I think everyone would like to get the 4-5* athletes who most pundits consider slam dunks. Nobody rational is saying don't recruit these athletes. The reality is, can CU attract these players after being a national laughing stock the past 7 years or so. I don't think this is the case.
The other issue is do these 4-5* players fit the scheme that Mac2 is running and do their egos fit the personality he is trying to build. One schools 5* in one scheme can be another teams 2* player. From what I've seen, Mac2 realizes he can't attract the top rated players and is trying to find good athletes, with the body type/speed that can compete with the already for prime time HS recruits. He has the confidence that he can take players who can compete physically with the top recruits, and build them up with time and coaching. Frankly, this is the only option we have right now and I like what I am seeing. After drinking the kool aid for the past 7 years I am in a show me state of mind too. But I will say, after watching the game last week, and seeing how well the last minute recruits Mac 2 did, I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. He has a plan and accepts responsibility for the product we are seeing. How refreshing.
If we win this week, I really believe we take Fresno to the woodshed.

Go Buffs!
 
These threads are always hilarious. I love the conspiracy theories about 5 star players are only 5 stars because of the teams that offerred.
 
HotRack said:
Again, where do I say to BUILD the program on the two and three around here? I don't.
****ing can't win to lose around here.

This staff has to do more work than everyone else right now. Plain and simple.
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Sorry, I didn't meant to attack your post, you were correct. I was just saying that it doesn't really work the other way around. That's how half of the first round of the NFL draft happens. It's also how people like BuFfenuF get confused and think that since half of the NFL draft is 2 stars from tiny schools that recruiting 2 stars is just as good as recruiting 5 stars.

For whatever reason, people seem to get really passionate during this argument. Things get taken personally and turn ugly really quickly for some reason.. kinda reminds me of the politics arguments.
 
Hadn't seen it mentioned elsewhere, but Alex Turbow was placed on scholarship.

Also, Jeff Thomas switched to #84.
 
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