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Falo and Gordon SUSPENDED sentences (reinstated for fall camp)

DBT said:
Very good question. They would if I were in charge. I guess another question is "do CU football players get special treatment in these cases or are they punished the same or even more harshly than the general student population?" I guess you could argue that just by the fact that they have a free ride they are privleged and, therefore, should be held to a higher standard.
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So what about the non-athletes who are there on grants or CU specific scholarships, do they get held to a higher standard as well. I don't know what percentage of the student population fits that description but would assume it is substantial.

I think the entire student kangaroo court thing is ridiculous, athlete or not. We are putting the future of young people in the hands of a bunch of other students who have no legal training and little life experience.

A student advisory board that reviews evidence and makes suggestions to an independent hearing officer would be more reasonable but the current system is an invitation to abuse with little to no opportunity for appeal.
 
MiamiBuffs said:
Would anyone that was not a student athlete be treated the same? Different? Would they have a path back? Would they be out because they are not athletes?
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Isn't the entire question here on whether HCMM should impose a punishment that goes above and beyond the punishment levied by the school?
 
MtnBuff said:
I think the entire student kangaroo court thing is ridiculous, athlete or not. We are putting the future of young people in the hands of a bunch of other students who have no legal training and little life experience.
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Victimizing the perpetrators is a common occurance in society today. If students refrained from stealing from their fellow students then they would not have to deal with suffering the consequences of their actions. Taking responsibility for oneself instead of blaming others is too rare.
 
Big Jim said:
Victimizing the perpetrators is a common occurance in society today. If students refrained from stealing from their fellow students then they would not have to deal with suffering the consequences of their actions. Taking responsibility for oneself instead of blaming others is too rare.
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I have no problem with accountability, I have a problem with uneven accountability administered by a group that is not qualified to do so.

Consequences for negative actions are appropriate, the question is are the consequences appropriate for the actions and are they administered fairly. I would answer no to both questions, and not just for athletes.
 
I expect this will be an unpopular opinion, but I like that CU allows a panel of students to decide suspensions of other students. It's a jury of peers deciding the standards for their community. The precedents they set impact themselves and their friends. I think it's a good system and I haven't seen any evidence that they're more likely to make questionable decisions than a panel of university employees would.
 
Big Jim said:
Victimizing the perpetrators is a common occurance in society today. If students refrained from stealing from their fellow students then they would not have to deal with suffering the consequences of their actions. Taking responsibility for oneself instead of blaming others is too rare.
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Falo, for sure, took responsibility for his actions. He stepped up and admitted his wrong doing and regret. What more do you want? Self flagellation? And I'm not saying some sort of punishment should not be levied. Even a year's worth. What I'm saying is allow him the chance to continue with his education rather than just kicking him, them, to the curb.
 
Buffnik said:
I expect this will be an unpopular opinion, but I like that CU allows a panel of students to decide suspensions of other students. It's a jury of peers deciding the standards for their community. The precedents they set impact themselves and their friends. I think it's a good system and I haven't seen any evidence that they're more likely to make questionable decisions than a panel of university employees would.
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What I don't like is that an accused student is not allowed to have representation. At least legal representation. It's pretty intimidating for an 18 year old kid to go before a triumvirate and defend them self. And I'd also bet a student "judge" would, very likely, have a prejudice against a scholarship athlete. Especially a black one. Yeah. I said it.
 
DBT said:
What I don't like is that an accused student is not allowed to have representation. At least legal representation. It's pretty intimidating for an 18 year old kid to go before a triumvirate and defend them self. And I'd also bet a student "judge" would, very likely, have a prejudice against a scholarship athlete. Especially a black one. Yeah. I said it.
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What if the student judge is black?
 
Sykobuff said:
What if the student judge is black?
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Then they'd be more fair. My criminal daughter actually had to go before that board her freshman year. She was caught in a dorm with beer for God's sake! Of course the resident assistant didn't like her much and she was the only one in the room sent before the board or whatever they are called.
 
DBT said:
What I don't like is that an accused student is not allowed to have representation. At least legal representation. It's pretty intimidating for an 18 year old kid to go before a triumvirate and defend them self. And I'd also bet a student "judge" would, very likely, have a prejudice against a scholarship athlete. Especially a black one. Yeah. I said it.
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That prejudice can swing the other way, too. Especially if the program is winning and the students protect the BMOC. Was like that at CU in the past, from a lot of personal anecdotes I've heard. And while race is almost always a factor, it's something that can cut both ways. Sometimes people are so afraid of appearing racist that they will be more lenient to a minority defendant... especially within a liberal university culture.

What I'm getting at is that I think these things balance imperfectly but well enough that I don't think a committee of university administrators would be more fair (politics and money would pollute that process). And I'm not sure that having legal counsel in this process would be good for it. That would make it worse, imho. Student defendants with the resources to hire an attorney - especially a good one - would have a huge advantage over students of less means who are on financial assistance to attend CU. That is not the direction to go.
 
Buffnik said:
I expect this will be an unpopular opinion, but I like that CU allows a panel of students to decide suspensions of other students. It's a jury of peers deciding the standards for their community. The precedents they set impact themselves and their friends. I think it's a good system and I haven't seen any evidence that they're more likely to make questionable decisions than a panel of university employees would.
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Fine with a jury of peers. Not ok with it being a guilty until proven innocent type system. Not ok with no faculty/admin oversight of decisions. Not ok with no legal representation.

It being a group of peers is literally the only thing the honor council does right.
 
Sykobuff said:
What if the student judge is black?
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Are they? Who are the students involved in the process? Who vets them for biases and for knowledge of the legal system and student conduct expectations?

Who oversees their decisions and looks for consistency?

I like the idea of having students involved in the system and would support a system that takes cases before a student jury (composed of a cross-section of students, not just poly-science majors and student government types.)

There also has to be a reasonable process for appeal which is lacking now based on the results we have seen over the years.
 
Buffnik said:
That prejudice can swing the other way, too. Especially if the program is winning and the students protect the BMOC. Was like that at CU in the past, from a lot of personal anecdotes I've heard. And while race is almost always a factor, it's something that can cut both ways. Sometimes people are so afraid of appearing racist that they will be more lenient to a minority defendant... especially within a liberal university culture.

What I'm getting at is that I think these things balance imperfectly but well enough that I don't think a committee of university administrators would be more fair (politics and money would pollute that process). And I'm not sure that having legal counsel in this process would be good for it. That would make it worse, imho. Student defendants with the resources to hire an attorney - especially a good one - would have a huge advantage over students of less means who are on financial assistance to attend CU. That is not the direction to go.
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Good points Nik. It's certainly a complex issue for which I find myself arguing with myself.
 
Shldr2Shldr said:
Fine with a jury of peers. Not ok with it being a guilty until proven innocent type system. Not ok with no faculty/admin oversight of decisions. Not ok with no legal representation.

It being a group of peers is literally the only thing the honor council does right.
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They do have faculty. I think there is one student, one faculty and one other administrative person of some sort. I'm pretty sure. It isn't just a jury of students.
 
DBT said:
They do have faculty. I think there is one student, one faculty and one other administrative person of some sort. I'm pretty sure. It isn't just a jury of students.
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No. It is 4 students and the Director of Adjudication or their Designee (who can be a council member)

So sure, sometimes it has 1 admin but it is not required
 
Shldr2Shldr said:
No. It is 4 students and the Director of Adjudication or their Designee (who can be a council member)

So sure, sometimes it has 1 admin but it is not required
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When I go to the school website, it sounds like the process is a lot different than it used to be. Read it if you like. http://www.colorado.edu/osc/sites/default/files/attached-files/studentconductcode_15-16.pdf. Suffice it to say that no matter what we think, they'll have to deal with the consequences of their actions.
 
DBT said:
Then they'd be more fair. My criminal daughter actually had to go before that board her freshman year. She was caught in a dorm with beer for God's sake! Of course the resident assistant didn't like her much and she was the only one in the room sent before the board or whatever they are called.
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Seriously?

I had a fridge full of beer in my dorm. My RA used to come in and steal them.

Man, things have changed at CU. not for the better, either.
 
Non-athletes are kicked out of school all the time for violating the code of conduct. It just does not hit the papers.

The process is not a legal process, being a student at CU is a privilege not a right.

DBT said:
Falo, for sure, took responsibility for his actions. He stepped up and admitted his wrong doing and regret. What more do you want? Self flagellation? And I'm not saying some sort of punishment should not be levied. Even a year's worth. What I'm saying is allow him the chance to continue with his education rather than just kicking him, them, to the curb.
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Did he turn himself in...no. He admitted his wrong doing after he was arrested - probably a detective that told him things would be easier if he came clean. As a parent of kids who were crime victims in college - I have no sympathy for people who perpetuate criminal acts against others.
 
BlackNGold said:
Non-athletes are kicked out of school all the time for violating the code of conduct. It just does not hit the papers.

The process is not a legal process, being a student at CU is a privilege not a right.



Did he turn himself in...no. He admitted his wrong doing after he was arrested - probably a detective that told him things would be easier if he came clean. As a parent of kids who were crime victims in college - I have no sympathy for people who perpetuate criminal acts against others.
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Finally!! Does this mean that you're ready to change that avatar!!
 
DBT said:
They do have faculty. I think there is one student, one faculty and one other administrative person of some sort. I'm pretty sure. It isn't just a jury of students.
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Do they all have to wear Kangaroo suits?
 
BlackNGold said:
Non-athletes are kicked out of school all the time for violating the code of conduct. It just does not hit the papers.

The process is not a legal process, being a student at CU is a privilege not a right.



Did he turn himself in...no. He admitted his wrong doing after he was arrested - probably a detective that told him things would be easier if he came clean. As a parent of kids who were crime victims in college - I have no sympathy for people who perpetuate criminal acts against others.
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You bastard!
 
BlackNGold said:
As a parent of kids who were crime victims in college - I have no sympathy for people who perpetuate criminal acts against others.
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As a former CU student who was the victim of a similar crime, I can tell you that had the criminals been caught, and showed genuine remorse, I would not have wanted to ruin their lives over a childish mistake. I'd want justice, but not revenge.
 
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