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Hawkspeak RE: Participation
- Thread starter aik
- Start date
I will defend this style of coaching, for peewee football/baseball/basketball/whatever sport. But certainly not for any athletic competition at the high school level or above.
Chilly
Well-Known Member
But this isn't the NFL and he is doing exactly the right thing by these kids who are student atheletes (student being first).
I 100% agree with the statement on Ringo's blog from Hawkins.
Chilly
Well-Known Member
And he is playing in the NFL which is now his profession. These are NOT professional atheletes. They are young kids and Hawkins is absolutely doing the right thing when it comes to off field issues.
My hope is that he will continue doing exactly what he is doing, and find away to get this thing turned around and win.
Chilly
Well-Known Member
I will defend it an I have been since the start of the season. He is building this team the right way. I don't want Hawkins taking short cuts on these issues just to win game.
The question remains, can he build the program correctly AND win. Some coaches can do both. If Hawkins can't the last thing I want to see is bringing in a coach who is willing to deviate from this just to win.
I'll defend this style.....you either do things the right way or the wrong way. Somewhere in between will find you success in some cases, but it will likely be short lived.
There is a classic story of B. Mac getting on the plane to head down to a bowl game and seeing that one of the players was wearing jeans (they were to wear suits and ties). The player was asked to exit the plane and stayed in Boulder for the bowl trip.
I am NOT defending Hawk's coaching ability here...there are many things that I have disagreed with him on. But as it relates to this topic, he is spot on IMO. If a player wants to win and is committed to helping the team win, showing up on time to meetings, passing your classes, and knowing what you have to do when you're on the field is a MINIMUM requirement. If they can't do that, it is on the player, not the coach.
I don't entirely disagree with the sentiment but, as usual, it seems like Hawkin's approach is way too rigid.
Academics are important but if a player is struggling that much let him skip a few practices or hell, even sit him out for one game. How does it help the player, if he has to be at the game anyway, to force him to stand on the sidelines for 3 hours as opposed to getting in the game at least a little bit?
If "Tom" is an athletic player but doesn't know the entire playbook, I don't think he has to be a starter or play the majority of plays, but why can't he get on the field for 10-12 plays?
Academics are important but if a player is struggling that much let him skip a few practices or hell, even sit him out for one game. How does it help the player, if he has to be at the game anyway, to force him to stand on the sidelines for 3 hours as opposed to getting in the game at least a little bit?
If "Tom" is an athletic player but doesn't know the entire playbook, I don't think he has to be a starter or play the majority of plays, but why can't he get on the field for 10-12 plays?
Because Tom probably isn't knowing what he is supposed to do, only becasue he isn't putting in the time and effort. If he wants to play, he needs to take care of his responsibilities before he plays PS3 or goes to hang with his girlfriend. That is a part growing up to be an adult. AND, the other teams DO have pretty good coaches, and will know that when Tom is in, we will be running one of 2-3 plays.
buffs04
Well-Known Member
If you aren't giving your team the best chance to win, then don't play the game at all.
We want to talk about fair? How far is it to the players that came here to win games and were sold a bunch of nonsense by the coaching staff that we were returning to national prominence, and then sit on the bench and watch the team lose nearly every week while inferior talent plays in front of them? Is that fair to them?
This is all simply a bunch of rhetoric and excuses for Hawkins to justify the fact that he has a severe problem with playing favorites to the enormous detriment to the team.
If academics are of such strong importance, why suit up to play football at all? Why not go to college as a normal student and pay student loans like everybody else?
You are living in fairly tale land if you think that football players are at college to be students first and foremost. I have had classes with numerous CU football players in the past and it is so far away from the truth to say that school is their top priority that it is laughable. These guys get one special concession after another when it comes to school work.
What percentage of CU's football roster do you think would be students at CU if they weren't players? 10%?
Academics are important but to say that they are head and shoulders more important than football for these athletes is not the way that it works in reality and it never will be. Not here, not at any "big time" football program anywhere in the country.
Also, if Hawkins has done such a spectacular job of instilling the value of academics to the players on this team, then why are there so many ineligible every year? Why is the "APR" or whatever so bad that there is a threat of losing scholarships (not that we like to use them anyway, but that's another story)?
This is all a bunch of excuses for the slow walkons with no talent of the world to play at CU in favor of the Andre Simmons' because Hawkins likes them because he can relate to them more because he also had no talent when he played college ball. That is, as far as I am concerned, where this whole problem stops and starts.
If Hawkins doesn't really care about winning more than his petty concept of "doing the right thing", then what is he doing talking about "national championships within 3 years" and "10 wins and no excuses" and "we can still win the big12 north" 5 days before his team gets shut out against a pathetic Kansas State team.
We never heard any of this nonsense about how winning isn't important if you do things the right way until now because the truth is Hawkins wants to win, he just doesn't actually know how to do it, so now we are placing winning on the priority list right in between tying our shoelaces properly and making sure all the players are flossing their teeth every night before they go to bed.
We want to talk about fair? How far is it to the players that came here to win games and were sold a bunch of nonsense by the coaching staff that we were returning to national prominence, and then sit on the bench and watch the team lose nearly every week while inferior talent plays in front of them? Is that fair to them?
This is all simply a bunch of rhetoric and excuses for Hawkins to justify the fact that he has a severe problem with playing favorites to the enormous detriment to the team.
If academics are of such strong importance, why suit up to play football at all? Why not go to college as a normal student and pay student loans like everybody else?
You are living in fairly tale land if you think that football players are at college to be students first and foremost. I have had classes with numerous CU football players in the past and it is so far away from the truth to say that school is their top priority that it is laughable. These guys get one special concession after another when it comes to school work.
What percentage of CU's football roster do you think would be students at CU if they weren't players? 10%?
Academics are important but to say that they are head and shoulders more important than football for these athletes is not the way that it works in reality and it never will be. Not here, not at any "big time" football program anywhere in the country.
Also, if Hawkins has done such a spectacular job of instilling the value of academics to the players on this team, then why are there so many ineligible every year? Why is the "APR" or whatever so bad that there is a threat of losing scholarships (not that we like to use them anyway, but that's another story)?
This is all a bunch of excuses for the slow walkons with no talent of the world to play at CU in favor of the Andre Simmons' because Hawkins likes them because he can relate to them more because he also had no talent when he played college ball. That is, as far as I am concerned, where this whole problem stops and starts.
If Hawkins doesn't really care about winning more than his petty concept of "doing the right thing", then what is he doing talking about "national championships within 3 years" and "10 wins and no excuses" and "we can still win the big12 north" 5 days before his team gets shut out against a pathetic Kansas State team.
We never heard any of this nonsense about how winning isn't important if you do things the right way until now because the truth is Hawkins wants to win, he just doesn't actually know how to do it, so now we are placing winning on the priority list right in between tying our shoelaces properly and making sure all the players are flossing their teeth every night before they go to bed.
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bullsh!t.
You win with players who make plays. Period. If a guy is performing during practice but is a dog on Saturday, you put somebody else in. His statement about winning with performers and losing with potential only tells me he can't tell the difference between the two.
Uh, okay.
No one ever said that academis was being placed over football. Only that you actually HAVE to do your school work and pass your classes. That is only one part of it anyway.
Showing up to meetings/practice late (if true) is completely unacceptable and should not be tolerated. Nor should not knowing what you're supposed to do when you are on the field (this goes on the coaches as well).
Getting the the young men to meet their responsibilities, and be flawless in their execution on the feild is a requirement to be an excellent football team, not an afterthought
SINKRATZ
PhD in Analogy
It's not the off the field stuff that bothers me - I appreciate that he wants to make sure things are done the right way and kids go to class, stay out of trouble, and become decent human beings, but iy has to work on the field as well.
I'm not saying being a college coach is easy, but like it or not his job is to do all those off the field things AND WIN GAMES. He's not winning and it's difficult for fans to watch the team lose when supposedly more talented players are sitting on the sideline.
Maybe all of our most talented players are slacking in school, or being late for meetings and this has forced Hawk into a corner, but unfortunately for him that is not the perception most fans have of the current situation.
pwbuffan
Active Member
Yah it is great look how Espy at PR and WR has worked out and please do not hand me this crap that Simmons is too slow to learn the playbook after what he accomplished to get here
COTransplant
Club Member
I don't disagree with Hawk's ideas. I like the fact that he tries to 'do it the right way', but the fact is that the lack of results on the field still falls directly on his shoulders.
That BS about winning with achievers and losing with talent...gimme a break. it's his (and the rest of his staff's) job to COACH the talent. If a player has talent that isn't translating into results, it is because of bad coaching. If after long periods of time in the program, players are still not passing the tests about knowing what to do in given situations, its bad coaching. Motivating a player to show up on time to practice? Thats part of coaching too. He seems to want to be more than a football coach with these kids, to help them be better individuals. Thats all fine and dandy but its not working. Part of motivating someone is having people trust you, and both the losing record and the manner in which we got it have done nothing to build anybody's trust in Hawkin's leadership of this program.
That BS about winning with achievers and losing with talent...gimme a break. it's his (and the rest of his staff's) job to COACH the talent. If a player has talent that isn't translating into results, it is because of bad coaching. If after long periods of time in the program, players are still not passing the tests about knowing what to do in given situations, its bad coaching. Motivating a player to show up on time to practice? Thats part of coaching too. He seems to want to be more than a football coach with these kids, to help them be better individuals. Thats all fine and dandy but its not working. Part of motivating someone is having people trust you, and both the losing record and the manner in which we got it have done nothing to build anybody's trust in Hawkin's leadership of this program.
A key issue here is do we really know the extent to which Tom is missing meetings, doesn't know the playbook, etc. We don't really know since that stuff usually doesn't get reported to the public. But I just have a hard time believing a guy like Simmons, who worked his butt off all summer to get here, would turn around in the fall and throw away this opportunity by being lazy.
Regarding the other team knowing what plays we will run I say so what? Any coach worth is salt will teell you he fears PLAYERS more than PLAYS. Nebraska won National titles in the 90's with a playbook that had all of 6 or 7 plays in it. You knew what they were gonna do, you just couldn't stop it because they had more talent. That's the whole point of getting the TALENT on the field.
13Buff
Club Member
fify
What Hawk needs to do is simple. You have a minimum set of standards that HAVE to be met in order to play at all. Attend all classes, meetings, practice etc. Outside of that you play the guys that give you the best chance to win. The reason the less talented players put in so much time in the film rooms is because they have to, they need every edge they can get.
canbuff
New Member
I think this just proves that he could care less if his teams win football games. What gives him the most satisfaction is to play the players he feels deserve it the most, according to his criteria, and as long as those players play as good as they can he could care less if they won.
LOSER MENTALITY!!!
LOSER MENTALITY!!!
Hmm. Well, I read the "blog" quote by Hawkins and skimmed through all the threads. I'm not sure you can take a quote from a blog and really get the big picture of what he believes. I got the sense that, to Hawkins, there are many things that go into playing time, not just how a kid is doing in the class room. For instance, I heard from a kid on the team that a certain player many of us have wanted to see more of was the most out of shape kid in practice. Unless you guys are inside the program and know all that goes on, you should maybe be careful in your criticism.
As for academics and the whole NFL (Crabtree) analogy: Sorry, but the NCAA does hold schools accountable for academics. For either good or bad, CU is tougher, academically, than most ranked programs. So keeping a kid on track at CU is more difficult than, say, at Miami. We aren't like Florida State where kids can take on line exams with the answers provided ahead of time, :lol:. At least I hope not.
As for academics and the whole NFL (Crabtree) analogy: Sorry, but the NCAA does hold schools accountable for academics. For either good or bad, CU is tougher, academically, than most ranked programs. So keeping a kid on track at CU is more difficult than, say, at Miami. We aren't like Florida State where kids can take on line exams with the answers provided ahead of time, :lol:. At least I hope not.
:lol: When did I ever say Simmons? I am more talking in generalities and that fact that I agree with this part of his philosophy.
I also haven't really noticed Espy take a ton of snaps either.
Back to Simmons, if you want to talk about him specifically. This kid missed ALL of fall camp....and has had to play catch up while learning each weeks game plan installation. it is fine to throuw him in there and say "just run a streak on this play"....but that is only effective one or two times. Not knocking the kid at ALL here.....just pointing out that he was in a position where he was going to be a step behind from day one.
I don't even know where to start with this.
First, I guarantee that they had more than 6-7 plays. Second, what they did that made them so hard is they had 2-3 options on each play....which was very difficult to defend. They NEVER made mental mistakes. Players more than plays, fine. But if you know what the player is going to do....or more, what the entire team is going to do because the player is in the game, it makes it that much easier on a defense by a factor of 10
White_Rabbit
Well-Known Member
I don't really want to get into the entire more playing time due to good grades stuff, unlikely that is true. However, I thought Hawk was recruiting the "right" guys. I'm sorry, but I don't understand why football players are so slow to learn things the rest of us just have to know. Why does Hawk have to give them life lessons and tell them how to act? Nobody tells me that kind of crap and nobody tells the other 99% of the world, we just know.
Point being: why is it on Hawk at all to be these guys' life mentor? Hawk is here to win games, the players are here to play a game they love and go to school for free. Sure, Hawk can tell them how to conduct themselves and inform them that homework is probably pretty good to do, but god ****** he's here to win games. If his players are idiots then that's his own fault for recruiting them.
God I'm going to get nailed for writing that.
Point being: why is it on Hawk at all to be these guys' life mentor? Hawk is here to win games, the players are here to play a game they love and go to school for free. Sure, Hawk can tell them how to conduct themselves and inform them that homework is probably pretty good to do, but god ****** he's here to win games. If his players are idiots then that's his own fault for recruiting them.
God I'm going to get nailed for writing that.
I'm very surprised that anyone would think that ANYTHING BUT this style of coaching would work.
Mac would defend it.
Gary Barnett would defend it.
Josh McDaniels defends it. (see a certain WR who got religion)
Bo Pelini has been VERY verbal this week about this exact same thing. (2 of his top WR's are running scout team this week).
Slick Rick may not defend it.
There is ZERO chance that NOT doing it this way would allow long term success. Zero chance.
Not sure if I buy into that, all the coaching in the world will not make an undersized, slow player a better athlete. You can't coach speed or size, no matter how hard a kid tries or how much coaching is provided. At the end of the day you are going to lose to the more gifted athletes. I'm not saying ignore academics, but you have to use some common sense as well.
Chilly
Well-Known Member
His statement goes far beyond just getting it done in practice. There is more to read in his statements then just that. I think many are overlooking this.
Chilly
Well-Known Member
I don't disagree. He has to start winning games. But when you see a coach is making the effort to not cut corners and to try to create an environment where kids are held accountable, it should at least be recognized.
We need a coach who can do both, not just one OR the other. Hawkins may not be the guy who can get both done, but he should be given props for his effort. If he is replaced as a University we should also make it very clear that the next coach need to achieve both as well, not just win.
White_Rabbit
Well-Known Member
Just read the actual article, commented earlier on some posts in the thread.
I don't really have a huge problem with what Hawk said. I get what he's going for and it's all well and good until you find yourself playing Jason Espinoza at WR and it costing the team. Maybe this really is why some of the seemingly more talented players aren't getting into the game, but it's hard to ignore evidence pointing to the contrary. What about all of those players that have come out and said they just don't understand what they're doing wrong. They feel like they put in the work and do all the little things and it still results in them riding the bench. The Blake Mackey story comes to mind. I can't think of names right now, but there have been a few other current players that have said about the same. At the end of the day Hawk needs to realize that whatever has worked for 30 years isn't working currently. He can talk all day long about how those coaches favorites that won him games before aren't doing that anymore. The Big 12 aint intramurals, which honestly, is what he has coached for most of those 30 years.
I don't really have a huge problem with what Hawk said. I get what he's going for and it's all well and good until you find yourself playing Jason Espinoza at WR and it costing the team. Maybe this really is why some of the seemingly more talented players aren't getting into the game, but it's hard to ignore evidence pointing to the contrary. What about all of those players that have come out and said they just don't understand what they're doing wrong. They feel like they put in the work and do all the little things and it still results in them riding the bench. The Blake Mackey story comes to mind. I can't think of names right now, but there have been a few other current players that have said about the same. At the end of the day Hawk needs to realize that whatever has worked for 30 years isn't working currently. He can talk all day long about how those coaches favorites that won him games before aren't doing that anymore. The Big 12 aint intramurals, which honestly, is what he has coached for most of those 30 years.
COTransplant
Club Member
I'm with you on that. I'm just saying that if you have kids with potential who aren't performing and you're forced to play someone who is undersized and slower but knows the game, the buck stops with the coaches. It is their job to aid the 'potential' with the proper coaching, and hopefully that translates to results.