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Hindsight - Things almost worked with Hawkins

patebuff said:
The Chancellor of the School has been the constant in all of this.
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I’m not a fan of his, but it’s more than a single bogeyman. It’s the entire university culture. I think a person like Gordon Gee was such a dominant personality that he could effectively shift the narrative and swim upstream against the culture, but it’s unlikely to find a situation like that again.*

The Bill McCartney/Gordon Gee/Bill Marolt era was absolutely a freak alignment of all the stars in the CU solar system.





*The 1995 version of Creebuzz would’ve hated the 2021 old man Creebuzz, with his defeatist attitude.
 
Creebuzz said:
My advice, become a basketball fan.
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Why not be a fan of both?

I always feel like great and prolonged success in one sport helps in other major sport (KU being the exception, for my lifetime).

Like everyone else in n this board, I’d like to see the football program climb up the ladder - respected -> feared -> dominant. RG and those above him dropped the baton once Tucker ducked out. The situation was bad, and RG moved with panic to land a salvageable coach with spring ball being the focus (3-4 weeks after Tucker left, COVID hit). Whatever recruiting and brand improvements made during Tucker’s 60-ish week time at CU seemed to be abandoned weeks after he left, as not to get too close to a made-up warning track of “scandalous behavior”…or at least it seems that way.

I felt like I watched the Hawkins years from a distance. Since I was hyper-focused on music and nightlife to be caught up in any sports fandom at the time…still was a dominant force in the yearly Easter softball game with the in-laws during this spell. Not being too involved, it seemed that Hawkins was a good hire on paper, but daddy ball is probably what did him in and put CU into a fading ghost town in college football. Catching up, it seems that’s few blunders really kept CU from enjoying good success during this time. The same could be said for the MM era, but at least Jay was a receiver…and come to find out, Montez was really the only decent QB in that room during the later years.
 
I don't buy the bad luck at Nebraska portion of the argument. It was another example of bad coaching. He didn't have the team try to block the kick (I think they had Ryan Miller (6'6") & Nate Solder (6'8") on the team so why not put them over the center & get a hand up, especially when it was bound to be more of a line drive). Nor did he try at all to ice the kicker with a TO as Lubick successfully did w/ Mason Crosby in Hawkin's first year. They just let him swing away with no pressure, hence the result.
 
SeanMSan said:
Why not be a fan of both?

I always feel like great and prolonged success in one sport helps in other major sport (KU being the exception, for my lifetime).

Like everyone else in n this board, I’d like to see the football program climb up the ladder - respected -> feared -> dominant. RG and those above him dropped the baton once Tucker ducked out. The situation was bad, and RG moved with panic to land a salvageable coach with spring ball being the focus (3-4 weeks after Tucker left, COVID hit). Whatever recruiting and brand improvements made during Tucker’s 60-ish week time at CU seemed to be abandoned weeks after he left, as not to get too close to a made-up warning track of “scandalous behavior”…or at least it seems that way.

I felt like I watched the Hawkins years from a distance. Since I was hyper-focused on music and nightlife to be caught up in any sports fandom at the time…still was a dominant force in the yearly Easter softball game with the in-laws during this spell. Not being too involved, it seemed that Hawkins was a good hire on paper, but daddy ball is probably what did him in and put CU into a fading ghost town in college football. Catching up, it seems that’s few blunders really kept CU from enjoying good success during this time. The same could be said for the MM era, but at least Jay was a receiver…and come to find out, Montez was really the only decent QB in that room during the later years.
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I am a fan of both. With football, you are focusing again on coaches, which are important. But it is culture that creates sustained success.
 
89Buff said:
I don't buy the bad luck at ****braska portion of the argument. It was another example of bad coaching. He didn't have the team try to block the kick (I think they had Ryan Miller (6'6") & Nate Solder (6'8") on the team so why not put them over the center & get a hand up, especially when it was bound to be more of a line drive). Nor did he try at all to ice the kicker with a TO as Lubick successfully did w/ Mason Crosby in Hawkin's first year. They just let him swing away with no pressure, hence the result.
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It was a record FG in bad weather after a controversial unfavorable spot.
 
Creebuzz said:
I’m not a fan of his, but it’s more than a single bogeyman. It’s the entire university culture. I think a person like Gordon Gee was such a dominant personality that he could effectively shift the narrative and swim upstream against the culture, but it’s unlikely to find a situation like that again.*

The Bill McCartney/Gordon Gee/Bill Marolt era was absolutely a freak alignment of all the stars in the CU solar system.





*The 1995 version of Creebuzz would’ve hated the 2021 old man Creebuzz, with his defeatist attitude.
Click to expand...
It’s an institutional issue for sure but he flat just cares about the program staying out of the news
 
Creebuzz said:
I’m not a fan of his, but it’s more than a single bogeyman. It’s the entire university culture. I think a person like Gordon Gee was such a dominant personality that he could effectively shift the narrative and swim upstream against the culture, but it’s unlikely to find a situation like that again.*

The Bill McCartney/Gordon Gee/Bill Marolt era was absolutely a freak alignment of all the stars in the CU solar system.





*The 1995 version of Creebuzz would’ve hated the 2021 old man Creebuzz, with his defeatist attitude.
Click to expand...
The only part of this I don't buy is that Gee/Marolt/McCartney were that far out of alignment with the school culture/history.

We had first team all Americans, national individual awards winners, including Heisman candidates and runners up, winning records, conference championships, national rankings, and, etc - not at a consistent top 10 level, but at a level you would expect of top 25 program, literally for 60+ years.

Fairbanks was a swing for the fences hire that had won national titles at OU before failing in the no fun league. At the moment he was hired, CU hiring him was the equivalent of Bama hiring Saban after he failed at Miami. Of course it turned out CU failed the due diligence (maybe a theme here) and he was more interested in drinking and cashing a check than he was in coaching football.

The three men you mentioned took a program that was less than 5 years removed from a #3 ranking, a conference championship, and an eight year stretch of being consistently ranked (many times top 10, and mostly top 15).

They didn't "change the culture," they restored it to what it had very recently been and then took it to new heights (that truthfully weren't that far above where it had been before).

The trajectory definitely changed after those three left, and now it really would take a true cultural change to get back to even our historic norm.

One thing I do know, I don't believe that current leadership will do it, and yeah, I lay a lot of that at distephano's feet. He couldn't have single handedly changed everything, but he definitely could have taken many actions that would have prevented the descent into ruin.
 
89Buff said:
So you agree with me that he just sat back & let it happen.
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Of course. Should have collected the team and set up the FG defense while arguing the spot. I'm ambivalent about icing kickers - just as likely or more likely to allow them to settle down into their routine as it is to psyche them out.

But regardless, that was a very low odds FG. I'd guess maybe 10% with a really good college kicker. So it was unlucky however you slice it.
 
skibum said:
The only part of this I don't buy is that Gee/Marolt/McCartney were that far out of alignment with the school culture/history.

We had first team all Americans, national individual awards winners, including Heisman candidates and runners up, winning records, conference championships, national rankings, and, etc - not at a consistent top 10 level, but at a level you would expect of top 25 program, literally for 60+ years.

Fairbanks was a swing for the fences hire that had won national titles at OU before failing in the no fun league. At the moment he was hired, CU hiring him was the equivalent of Bama hiring Saban after he failed at Miami. Of course it turned out CU failed the due diligence (maybe a theme here) and he was more interested in drinking and cashing a check than he was in coaching football.

The three men you mentioned took a program that was less than 5 years removed from a #3 ranking, a conference championship, and an eight year stretch of being consistently ranked (many times top 10, and mostly top 15).

They didn't "change the culture," they restored it to what it had very recently been and then took it to new heights (that truthfully weren't that far above where it had been before).

The trajectory definitely changed after those three left, and now it really would take a true cultural change to get back to even our historic norm.

One thing I do know, I don't believe that current leadership will do it, and yeah, I lay a lot of that at distephano's feet. He couldn't have single handedly changed everything, but he definitely could have taken many actions that would have prevented the descent into ruin.
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Good point, and you’re right. Colorado had always been a football school. Culture has shifted around campus, though. Maybe it’s Distefano, maybe it’s more. We will know soon, since he’s got to be close to retirement.
 
Buffnik said:
Kind of did with a walk-on. Seth Lobato was good enough to get a cup of coffee in the NFL. We saw his talent in the spring game. Inexplicably, Hawkins moved this 6'6" QB to safety (protecting Cody's job?) and caused him to transfer. That blind spot nepotism was a killer - with the final act being the KU game @dio mentioned.
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Good memory, Nik. Brian White was another big-arm kid that had some coffee in an NFL camp after being run off by Hawkins. He finished with good numbers in the FCS, like Lobato. D2 Dan couldn't run Tyler Hansen off so he played games with his playing time and his starts. Hawkins was a self-serving, small-time, unintelligent grifter and a permanent stain on recent CU football. Obviously, JMHO.
 
-RG3 was very interested in CU....cody issue
-2008 class was loaded...mtm, bryce, major, rippey, etc...even with duds such as katoa and the cali running back...very solid class
-crappy facilities...decent S and C coach
-big 12 was loaded with talent...check the rosters that CU went against those last couple of years. in the 2010 draft, picks 1-4 and 6 were big 12 guys.
-listening to assistant coaches back then and today....the state of colorado does not produce enough D1 kids on an annual basis which leads to big time
focus on cali and texas which leads to signing kids whose parents cannot, for the most part attend games. that is a bigger issue than most realize
-the one year contract stipulation for assistant coaches was BS...

-losing grimes was critical...look at his subsequent jobs...cabral had the poly pipeline going full steam
-embree and co....hired some strong assistants...EB was strong...but too large a personality for the program which led to intra staff wars...OL coach marshall vs EB, was a year long battle. marshall is an nfl OL coach. sideline explosions by coaches were the norm...kids noticed that and it got to the recruits as it played out in front of all to see.
--embo's S and C guy was the best the school has had in the last 15 years...kids bought in, he worked them hard...was getting results.
--MM and his disney based pep talks was very weak...he used CU as a launching pad...how did that work ? his S and C guy set the program back 10years.
--handed great facilities...and laid an egg...some guys are destined to be coordinators..not head guys...no shame in that

bottom line...the cody issue and his dad's inability to step it up to D1 were the 2 impediments to CU success back then...embo was not ready for prime time as a head
coach...MM left many unanswered questions.
 
I do sometimes wonder how things might have been different had Hawkins recruited a real quarterback instead of his son. Ultimately, that is what spelled his demise. Had he simply not recruited Cody, would he have done some of the idiotic things he did? Hard to know for sure.
 
Not Sure said:
I do sometimes wonder how things might have been different had Hawkins recruited a real quarterback instead of his son. Ultimately, that is what spelled his demise. Had he simply not recruited Cody, would he have done some of the idiotic things he did? Hard to know for sure.
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Recruiting and sticking with Cody was a major error on his part.

I think the biggest factor in his failure though was not managing to bring a couple of key assistants with him from Boise and some really bad decisions on filling his staff.

Hawkins was a legitimate candidate. If we hadn't hired him another P5 program would have and it wouldn't have been a bottom feeder.

The problem was that Hawkins had experience managing a program that was working but he didn't have experience building a program. His selections for his staff lacked the recruiting power to upgrade our roster and bring in quality P5 players. He continued to look at the kind of kids Boise was recruiting, good G5 guys who they believed could be developed into their system.

The other problem with Hawkins and it relates directly to the staff and talent is that he was never able to develop an identity with the program. There was no clear this is who we are and this is how we beat you. No offensive identity, no defensive identity, and no distinct team personality.
 
MtnBuff said:
Recruiting and sticking with Cody was a major error on his part.

I think the biggest factor in his failure though was not managing to bring a couple of key assistants with him from Boise and some really bad decisions on filling his staff.

Hawkins was a legitimate candidate. If we hadn't hired him another P5 program would have and it wouldn't have been a bottom feeder.

The problem was that Hawkins had experience managing a program that was working but he didn't have experience building a program. His selections for his staff lacked the recruiting power to upgrade our roster and bring in quality P5 players. He continued to look at the kind of kids Boise was recruiting, good G5 guys who they believed could be developed into their system.

The other problem with Hawkins and it relates directly to the staff and talent is that he was never able to develop an identity with the program. There was no clear this is who we are and this is how we beat you. No offensive identity, no defensive identity, and no distinct team personality.
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His recruiting plan /strategy also fell apart without bowl games. He didn't do in season OVs.

He focused on guys who had been dropped by bigger programs because they landed a bigger prospect (or they just cooled on them because of a poor senior year or other red flags).

Then bring them all in a few big groups while you're practicing for your bowl game.

Focus on creating excitement and getting the whole group moving together.

You need to be a perpetual underdog (aka G5) and you have to consistently make bowl games for that to work.
 
Hawkins is the fraud of all frauds - added nothing on the football side...

But there is a case to be made that a HC is more like a figurehead anyway - and when viewed through that lens, perhaps there was some universe where he could have succeeded here.
 
MtnBuff said:
I think the biggest factor in his failure though was not managing to bring a couple of key assistants with him from Boise and some really bad decisions on filling his staff.
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Just imagine, if our AD at the time had the foresight to hire Peterson instead of Hawkins. Sure. Maybe no one saw that at the time, but I remember hearing the rumors about Boise's offense and their OC. I didn't know his name then, and seems that no one considered him for a HC job, yet. I think its interesting to think about what paths might have been taken, even if unlikely. Would a time traveling CU Buff fan be able to go back and keep us out of this descent into madness, and how could it have been done?
 
GawainBuff said:
Just imagine, if our AD at the time had the foresight to hire Peterson instead of Hawkins. Sure. Maybe no one saw that at the time, but I remember hearing the rumors about Boise's offense and their OC. I didn't know his name then, and seems that no one considered him for a HC job, yet. I think its interesting to think about what paths might have been taken, even if unlikely. Would a time traveling CU Buff fan be able to go back and keep us out of this descent into madness, and how could it have been done?
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We did see that the real candidate to succeed at the P5 level was Peterson, not Hawk.

I wonder though if Peterson would have been successful at CU. Likely he would have had more success but over the years I am wondering if our administration is willing to make the kind of commitment needed to have a winning program.

It keeps looking more and more that our problems aren't just with the coach.
 
To add to this because I've gotten to the point where I don't care who I piss off:

Dan Hawkins was not given a chance to succeed at CU.

Boosters loyal to the McCartney era and the former players & coaches hated the fact that Gary Barnett was fired. They hated that someone came in and said that things had to be done differently. They hated that they didn't "feel welcome" in the program, which was code for "we weren't privileged and entitled any more."

During this time, we had Embree giving fire and brimstone speeches at Buffs For Life events where Hawkins wasn't welcome and Bohn, another non-Buff, was attempting to bridge the political landscape by being present. Bohn would get ridiculed and abused to his face by Embree.

So, on another topic, don't ever try to sell me that Bohn made the Embree hire. That was forced by the same people who fvcked the program in 2003 with their shenanigans, did all they could to make it hard for Hawkins to succeed or even ensure his failure, and then made sure that real Buffs took over again. All while a lot of the old time boosters closed their wallets for the Folsom plans until Bohn was gone. Which led us to Rick George being hired as AD, MacIntyre being treated like crap and looking for the door, and eventually the hiring of Karl Dorrell with the elevation of Darrin Chiaverini.

If there's one thing to fix, it's getting these Forever Buffs (including folks who have just been there forever) out of the athletic department. A new era is not going to happen until we see guys like Plati, George and Lance exit.
 
Buffnik said:
To add to this because I've gotten to the point where I don't care who I piss off:

Dan Hawkins was not given a chance to succeed at CU.

Boosters loyal to the McCartney era and the former players & coaches hated the fact that Gary Barnett was fired. They hated that someone came in and said that things had to be done differently. They hated that they didn't "feel welcome" in the program, which was code for "we weren't privileged and entitled any more."

During this time, we had Embree giving fire and brimstone speeches at Buffs For Life events where Hawkins wasn't welcome and Bohn, another non-Buff, was attempting to bridge the political landscape by being present. Bohn would get ridiculed and abused to his face by Embree.

So, on another topic, don't ever try to sell me that Bohn made the Embree hire. That was forced by the same people who fvcked the program in 2003 with their shenanigans, did all they could to make it hard for Hawkins to succeed or even ensure his failure, and then made sure that real Buffs took over again. All while a lot of the old time boosters closed their wallets for the Folsom plans until Bohn was gone. Which led us to Rick George being hired as AD, MacIntyre being treated like crap and looking for the door, and eventually the hiring of Karl Dorrell with the elevation of Darrin Chiaverini.

If there's one thing to fix, it's getting these Forever Buffs (including folks who have just been there forever) out of the athletic department. A new era is not going to happen until we see guys like Plati, George and Lance exit.
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Same group that openly talked **** in the media about the hoops program, specifically when the practice facility was being financed and built.
 
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