Huh? The coach is accountable for everything in year six.
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Lappe has 3 years left on her contract what is Rick George going to do?
- Thread starter Section 108
- Start date
Huh? The coach is accountable for everything in year six.
/thread
BeBe
Club Member
I still can't help but wonder how this season would have gone had Alexis Robinson's last second 3 pointer gone in for the win instead of hitting the back of the rim in the UW at CU conference opener. A 1 point win in that first game vs the 2 point loss they ended up with after fighting so hard to get that close after being down about 20 earlier in the second half could have been a huge difference maker for this team.
CVilleBuff
Well-Known Member
This team would be sitting with a very poor Pac record regardless, IMO, but maybe we'd be sitting at 4-14 or 5-13
MarkW
Well-Known Member
Agreed. Winning that first conference game wouldn't have made a significant difference in the overall conference record. Perhaps it would have meant a couple of more wins at the most.
But it can be a huge drain. RG needs it to bring in a decent amount.
I'm betting we see a change. I'll be seriously disappointed if we don't. I respect the hell out of LL, but it's pretty clear this isn't working. This has the potential to get Hawkins-esque.
99'Buff
Well-Known Member
A change has to be made if there's a risk of losing Leonard, which seems like a possibility if the losing continues. The change needs to occur very soon, with a replacement hired by the conclusion of the final four, if not sooner. Jump on the opportunity before other programs snap the good coaches on the market.
The job is an attractive one, with some young talent in place, proven ability to win in the not-so-distant past, a major conference that has 4 final four contenders this season, etc.
The job is an attractive one, with some young talent in place, proven ability to win in the not-so-distant past, a major conference that has 4 final four contenders this season, etc.
Seriously. Sometimes I feel like we as fans overvalue our place in football, men's basketball, etc. compared to where we belong. In women's basketball, we 100% could have a legit presence. The community supports it, we have a history of it, we're in the right conference for it and Denver/Colorado puts out just enough to give us a decent base for recruiting. We're not going to be UCONN, Furd or Tennessee, but we should be a top 25 team every year.
The three years prior to this:
2012-13 - 26-7
2013-14 - 20-15
2014-15 - 16-17
You can make an argument that she deserves more time off of those three years, but there's a more disturbing part of those records when you look at conference play:
2012-13 - 13-5
2013-14 - 6-12
2014-15 - 6-12
LL was padding her stats with some soft non-conference schedules the two years prior to this one. She had a legitimately great team in '12-13 and deserves credit for that (even if it is mostly KMM's recruits, LL did coach them up a bit that year judging by teh improvement they showed), but they've been falling hard. 2-16 in conference play this year is embarrassing. There's really no explanation for this. This isn't like Tad where he took the team to the dance three years in a row (after being snubbed one prior) and had a down year, this is a trend. Don't get me wrong, if RG brings her back I'll cheer her on and hope I'm wrong, but in my (very limited and uninformed) opinion, it doesn't look good right now.
Setting the program record for losses in a season should get you fired. I am sorry. Lappe's roster has some serious talent on it. No reason to have lost 23 games.
20 years ago, CU WBB was a top 25 program. With the current players, it won't be next year. RG needs to fire her ASAP and move on. She has not scheduled well in the non-conference part of the season so it did pad the records. If I were in Leonard's shoes, I'd be looking to play elsewhere--some place I have an opportunity to go dancing. As long as LL is coach at CU, she will not have that opportunity.
KMM could not game coach. She knew how to recruit. Instead of calling a timeout when they fell 10 points down, she would wait until it was 20. They would pass the ball around until there were a few seconds on the shot clock and throw up a prayer. Season ticket holders left in droves.
More season ticket holders went this year and will keep going until there is a reason to go watch the team play. Next year's team will have Haley Smith and the three freshmen (then sophomores) as true Pac 12 caliber players, imo. Can't pass judgment on Freeman or Burich until I see them play. Not impressed by the stats of the two incoming freshmen.
IF LL is retained, the program keeps going downhill.
She ran Tad Boyle's offense?
It's funny to me to hear the complaints about Boyles offense (no talking about you absinthe) and then see what Oregon does and everyone calls them a well coached team. Against us the passed the ball around the top of the key and didn't even really set screens (very similar to what Tad does except we set screens constantly) and then one of their players made a play and got by someone. Most of you effectiveness as an offense comes down to the players you bring in which Lappe has apparently struggled with as well.
FtColBuff
Member
This. There is no one on this roster to replace Swan leaving. Lappe has been here 6 years and has recruited soft post players. Until recruiting these 4 freshmen, she had not stepped up to the plate. The time for RG to do something is now. There isn't an immediate difference maker in the post with the incoming class. If you let this continue next season you could see a massive transfer of what talent we do have.
Just the fact that Lappe had to start 2 freshmen at guard suggest that the guards she had recruited before lacked talent. It's that or she doesn't develop what she has very well. Our program isn't trending in the right direction and after 6 years, that has to fall on the coach.
FtColBuff
Member
This. There is no one on this roster to replace Swan leaving. Lappe has been here 6 years and has recruited soft post players. Until recruiting these 4 freshmen, she had not stepped up to the plate. The time for RG to do something is now. There isn't an immediate difference maker in the post with the incoming class. If you let this continue next season you could see a massive transfer of what talent we do have.
Just the fact that Lappe had to start 2 freshmen at guard suggest that the guards she had recruited before lacked talent. It's that or she doesn't develop what she has very well. Our program isn't trending in the right direction and after 6 years, that has to fall on the coach.
Very simple to me, she's had time to change the program and the results aren't there. I think she should be sent packing, it's part of the business. Jmho.
RalphieWasAGurl
Member
From Brian's article:
http://www.buffzone.com/ci_29593758/cu-womens-basketball-buffs-routed-by-washington-pac
First Buff team since '75, the inaugural year of Wbb at CU, that Buffs don't win a road game, finishing 0-14 this season.
Finishes with most losses, 7-23, of any Buffs Wbb team in history (previous worst was 6-22 1984-85 squad).
First Buff team in Pac-12 Tournament play to fail to win single tournament game.
I don't know what Rick George will do. I don't get the sense that he really cares that much about Women's sports that much, beyond how they impact the Department's recent budget issues. Not sure on the Wbb numbers or attendance. I do know that Phil DeStefano isn't letting the AD borrow money from campus anymore to cover budget shortfalls. Can the AD really afford to buy Lappe out of her years remaining and then pony up to get a legitimate coach? That's serious money we're talking about for a department that struggles to balance budget with recent attendance shortfalls.
I don't know Linda Lappe, but a lot of parents of players via social media seem to be making comments this past year that were just startling. Some can be dismissed as disgruntled parents, but others were from star players that were starters. Posts to the effect of coaching by threats, tearing down, fear, and crushing your players dreams not right way to do it. I'm not in the huddle, but I didn't like what I was reading at all.
Never was a Lappe fan but I'm not sure this program can get better by firing Lappe due to $$$ issues. Ryun Williams, at CSU, is already being linked to the Pac-12 ASU job that opened up when Niya Butts was fired:
http://www.azcentral.com/story/spor...utts-out-ua-womens-basketball-coach/81165338/
If Ryun leaves CSU to go to another Pac-12 program that isn't Colorado, I have to ask myself if Rick George and Ceal Barry really even have a plan. I agree that Lappe's biggest mistake has been soft non-conference scheduling. This Buffs team never seemed ready to enter the Pac-12 portion of the schedule, and especially in '13-14 with a stacked & talented team that should have competed w/Stanford for the Conference Championship. Remember the Buffs one NCAA berth under Lappe, that painful First Round NCAA tournament loss that was actually played at Coors Events Center? My takeaway there was that the Buffs just weren't ready to play a game like that. They got scorched all game by a Kansas senior that had never in her career played like that. Not a good sign.
I don't think Rick George can fire Lappe because of the financial implications or that he even has the political capital in the AD to make a change like that if Ceal isn't on board. Ceal led to process to hire him, not the other way around. At this point, I think we have to brace ourselves for the fact that this AD can't afford to fix this mistake. I think the better question to ask is of the four Freshman from the '15-16 class, and the two Freshman in the '16 class how many actually are on campus next year? Disturbing trend that Buffs players have already left program to play elsewhere, including arguably the best player in Roberson.
I have to say, if RG does want to move on from LL but doesn't due to financial reasons, I will be SERIOUSLY disappointed in him. If he wants to give her one more year because he thinks she's worth it, that's fine, but leaning on financials to make the decision is Bohn-esque.
If you handle things in a small time manner, that's the results you are gonna get.
Does anyone have any idea what the buyout looks like? So far as I can tell, Lappe's annual salary from the University is ~$170K based upon the extension she signed through April 30th, 2019. However, none of the articles that I can find from the most recent extension she signed in 2014 make any mention of a buyout or termination language. However, a DC article from 2012 detailing that extension says:
"If fired, Lappe could claim up to $245,830 a year from the date of termination through April, 30, 2016."
The extension in 2014 represented an increase in pay for Lappe of about 3%, so assuming that the "amount she could claim" (whatever that means) raised by the same amount with the 2014 extension then Lappe could claim ~$253K/year for 3 years. That's not exactly chump change, but neither is it the $3M/year they paid Hawk to go away. Could they find $250K/year for three years in the budget? seems doable.
EDIT: Meant to also say that I don't hate the idea of Ryun Williams. It would be similar to Bohn's penchant of hiring only coaches up and down the I-25 corridor and he doesn't have any power conference experience, but hard to argue with his results in Fort Collins or South Dakota.
"If fired, Lappe could claim up to $245,830 a year from the date of termination through April, 30, 2016."
The extension in 2014 represented an increase in pay for Lappe of about 3%, so assuming that the "amount she could claim" (whatever that means) raised by the same amount with the 2014 extension then Lappe could claim ~$253K/year for 3 years. That's not exactly chump change, but neither is it the $3M/year they paid Hawk to go away. Could they find $250K/year for three years in the budget? seems doable.
EDIT: Meant to also say that I don't hate the idea of Ryun Williams. It would be similar to Bohn's penchant of hiring only coaches up and down the I-25 corridor and he doesn't have any power conference experience, but hard to argue with his results in Fort Collins or South Dakota.
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Lappe's contract extends until April 2019. We can't take 3 more years of mediocrity, she has been on the job for 6 years. We need a coach that is a proven winner and recruiter on the Division 1 level. CU does not provide on the job training for their coaches. They need to come ready to succeed.
RalphieWasAGurl
Member
I've never even heard of a power 5 basketball Head Coach that had the recruiting problems Lappe struggles with, or combined with the defection issues that plague and will plague the program this offseason. Its just strange for a coach on the verge of being imminently fired to not be able to recruit anyone for all the scholarships available, at a Pac-12 program and prestigious academic university.
Found this on the internet and found it deliciously funny considering how sad a state the program is in:
http://ouhoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=389817
In conversation about Jim Foster being fired at Big Ten, Ohio State program the following things were said about Lappe:
3/20/13 "If I were the AD, I would at least look at Linda Lappe. I've been impressed with what she's accomplished in a pretty short period of time at CU."
"I don't think head coaches leave Louisville, Cal, Kentucky, or Colorado for Ohio State."
"I would agree normally but OSU will be throwing texas sized money at a new coach."
"Wrong. CU is Linda's dream job, and not that far into the future she will be a legend…You may quote me on that."
If you read the thread there is an otherwise intelligent discussion about Linda's contract & buyout and how much money Ohio State would have to throw at her to get her to take the Buckeyes job. I actually find it difficult to read the thread. The last post was made the day before the Buffs lost on their home floor at CEC to Kansas in the NCAA tournament. I find it hard to even imagine a time when Lappe had such a positive national reputation that Oklahoma and Big-12/Pac-12 fans were debating whether she'd jump to a bigger/better position. At that point in time that roster was mostly KMM's recruits and key players that had been recruited under Linda she was actually constantly playing head games with: namely Reese & Swan. I'll always remember that NCAA round 1 tournament loss to Kansas for one reason, Brittney Wilson was just feeling it that night, but Lappe had Kresl, B & A Wilson playing such an aggressive style of defense that they had 9 fouls between them in the game. BWil couldn't stay on the floor on a night that the Jayhawks couldn't stop her and her three was falling.
I guess that's the saddest thing for me. Over the years I've seen Lappe just waste players trying to force an overly aggressive defensive mindset. Forcing Swan to constantly try to take charges with her bad back, constantly putting her in foul jeopardy and at risk or having a chronic back ailment every time she hits the floor? It just never made sense to me. The payoff on those calls is so iffy. Swan never was a foul prone player, even as aggressive as she was on blocked shots, if you take those ridiculous attempts to get the charge call out. I used to find it distasteful that Linda Lappe would throw Swan under the bus for picking up quick fouls doing exactly what Linda directed her to do. Good coaches put players in positions where they can succeed, not in positions where they can't possibly get consistent positive outcomes.
The idea that Linda Lappe is going to be a Women's coaching legend is almost painful at this point. This is a coach that has fostered, as near as I can tell, an absolutely caustic and toxic environment on this team. Players are taking the high road, but my sense is they loathe the negativity that Linda has brought to the program. Now don't get me wrong, many very successful women's coaches are absolute authoritarians and downright tyrants, but I've found in coaching up girls and women that you have to build up much more than tear down, as is coming in men's coaching circles. It is just so easy to shatter a young woman's confidence to the point that you break the player.
Don't ever forget what Chucky said the night of her Senior night. She made a point about Jen Reese having been the Gatorade player of the year, and how obvious it was finally to see why. People forget the absolute insanity that Lappe used to engage in messing with Reese and Swan's heads. Yanking them into and out of the rotation. Someone I used to sit next to truly believed it was just random, based on nothing happening on the floor. That she had no feel for managing the game or the players.
Someone on a different forum used to accuse Linda of "faking" coaching. I thought that on its face was absurd. A coach may not be a good coach, but I didn't know what they actually meant by faking it out there. I think Linda Lappe was a nice enough person, probably. I think years from now she's going to regret the person she became and how she treated her players during her short time at CU as the Women's basketball coach. I don't think she ever had the requisite skills or experience for this role, and still can't comprehend why Ceal gave her the job in the first place. However, I think many coaches handle pressure with grace. Many coaches have incredibly warm & close relationships with their former coaches. I'm not sure when Linda Lappe leaves CU that the scorched earth will heal enough to ever offer a warm homecoming to the players that played here under her. Amazing young women like Hargis, the Malcolm-Pecks, Reese, Swan, Atcheley & Roberson had varying degrees of talent, but they all were people with feelings, and were trying their hardest to give their best for the team. At some point, and I don't know when exactly that happened, the coach seemed to start putting herself before the team concept, putting her personal goals and trying to desperately hold onto her job at all costs.
As a fan, it was very quiet, but if you carefully followed social media over the last several years, you could see from the parents of players on social media, and from conversations with program insiders and scholarship sponsors (if you knew who they were) and they trusted you, that something had gone wrong in this program. I saw multiple efforts of parents to reach out to Lappe to let her know, without attacking, that what she was doing was destructive and damaging to these young amateur-athletes. Something happened and the young Linda Lappe that we knew in this program became a very harsh, cold, vindictive and vile construct of her former self. It was an ugly transformation, and I don't think most fans actually have a sense of what these young women went through these past several years.
As Jamie Swan's Mom once tweeted:
The ugliest thing in the once proud CU Buffs Women's basketball program isn't the play on the floor, or the lack of any coherent plan or scheme to things. The ugliest part of this journey to program irrelevance has been the negative, caustic, and toxic culture that has been allowed to perpetuate within the Women's basketball program. I can't imagine having to try to endure everything these player's have endured just to hold onto my basketball scholarship to complete my education and play out my eligibility. No principal of any program has the right to make so many young people so abjectly miserable, just trying to desperately hold onto a job that she was never remotely experienced enough, qualified or capable of managing in the first place. This women's program used to be like a family. Now it feels like a family that suffered through an alcoholic or an abusive parent.
Someday Lappe will be fired. However, it will be too little too late for what many young women experienced in this program under her toxic environment. I'm not sure how the CU Buffs community and athletic family make that right, or we ever can. I also question why Ceal allowed that caustic environment to perpetuate, and continue.
The "Legend" of Linda Lappe is not a story written with a happy ending. Its the tale of a aspiring young coach that didn't have the experience, acumen, or recruiting presence to ever be successful in that role, long term. However, she could have taught many of these young women important life lessons about perseverance, dedication, and character lessons about how one conducts oneself when facing adversity. If there ever has been an example of what negative leadership is/was within this CU Buffs program I think we've seen that with Linda. The problem is that even when Linda finally is terminated and leaves, that certain young players on this team have been empowered by the wrong lessons and example Lappe has led. Negative culture will permeate within this program, that is Lappe's legacy, long after she's gone. That will be the Lappe Legend.
Found this on the internet and found it deliciously funny considering how sad a state the program is in:
http://ouhoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=389817
In conversation about Jim Foster being fired at Big Ten, Ohio State program the following things were said about Lappe:
3/20/13 "If I were the AD, I would at least look at Linda Lappe. I've been impressed with what she's accomplished in a pretty short period of time at CU."
"I don't think head coaches leave Louisville, Cal, Kentucky, or Colorado for Ohio State."
"I would agree normally but OSU will be throwing texas sized money at a new coach."
"Wrong. CU is Linda's dream job, and not that far into the future she will be a legend…You may quote me on that."
If you read the thread there is an otherwise intelligent discussion about Linda's contract & buyout and how much money Ohio State would have to throw at her to get her to take the Buckeyes job. I actually find it difficult to read the thread. The last post was made the day before the Buffs lost on their home floor at CEC to Kansas in the NCAA tournament. I find it hard to even imagine a time when Lappe had such a positive national reputation that Oklahoma and Big-12/Pac-12 fans were debating whether she'd jump to a bigger/better position. At that point in time that roster was mostly KMM's recruits and key players that had been recruited under Linda she was actually constantly playing head games with: namely Reese & Swan. I'll always remember that NCAA round 1 tournament loss to Kansas for one reason, Brittney Wilson was just feeling it that night, but Lappe had Kresl, B & A Wilson playing such an aggressive style of defense that they had 9 fouls between them in the game. BWil couldn't stay on the floor on a night that the Jayhawks couldn't stop her and her three was falling.
I guess that's the saddest thing for me. Over the years I've seen Lappe just waste players trying to force an overly aggressive defensive mindset. Forcing Swan to constantly try to take charges with her bad back, constantly putting her in foul jeopardy and at risk or having a chronic back ailment every time she hits the floor? It just never made sense to me. The payoff on those calls is so iffy. Swan never was a foul prone player, even as aggressive as she was on blocked shots, if you take those ridiculous attempts to get the charge call out. I used to find it distasteful that Linda Lappe would throw Swan under the bus for picking up quick fouls doing exactly what Linda directed her to do. Good coaches put players in positions where they can succeed, not in positions where they can't possibly get consistent positive outcomes.
The idea that Linda Lappe is going to be a Women's coaching legend is almost painful at this point. This is a coach that has fostered, as near as I can tell, an absolutely caustic and toxic environment on this team. Players are taking the high road, but my sense is they loathe the negativity that Linda has brought to the program. Now don't get me wrong, many very successful women's coaches are absolute authoritarians and downright tyrants, but I've found in coaching up girls and women that you have to build up much more than tear down, as is coming in men's coaching circles. It is just so easy to shatter a young woman's confidence to the point that you break the player.
Don't ever forget what Chucky said the night of her Senior night. She made a point about Jen Reese having been the Gatorade player of the year, and how obvious it was finally to see why. People forget the absolute insanity that Lappe used to engage in messing with Reese and Swan's heads. Yanking them into and out of the rotation. Someone I used to sit next to truly believed it was just random, based on nothing happening on the floor. That she had no feel for managing the game or the players.
Someone on a different forum used to accuse Linda of "faking" coaching. I thought that on its face was absurd. A coach may not be a good coach, but I didn't know what they actually meant by faking it out there. I think Linda Lappe was a nice enough person, probably. I think years from now she's going to regret the person she became and how she treated her players during her short time at CU as the Women's basketball coach. I don't think she ever had the requisite skills or experience for this role, and still can't comprehend why Ceal gave her the job in the first place. However, I think many coaches handle pressure with grace. Many coaches have incredibly warm & close relationships with their former coaches. I'm not sure when Linda Lappe leaves CU that the scorched earth will heal enough to ever offer a warm homecoming to the players that played here under her. Amazing young women like Hargis, the Malcolm-Pecks, Reese, Swan, Atcheley & Roberson had varying degrees of talent, but they all were people with feelings, and were trying their hardest to give their best for the team. At some point, and I don't know when exactly that happened, the coach seemed to start putting herself before the team concept, putting her personal goals and trying to desperately hold onto her job at all costs.
As a fan, it was very quiet, but if you carefully followed social media over the last several years, you could see from the parents of players on social media, and from conversations with program insiders and scholarship sponsors (if you knew who they were) and they trusted you, that something had gone wrong in this program. I saw multiple efforts of parents to reach out to Lappe to let her know, without attacking, that what she was doing was destructive and damaging to these young amateur-athletes. Something happened and the young Linda Lappe that we knew in this program became a very harsh, cold, vindictive and vile construct of her former self. It was an ugly transformation, and I don't think most fans actually have a sense of what these young women went through these past several years.
As Jamie Swan's Mom once tweeted:
The ugliest thing in the once proud CU Buffs Women's basketball program isn't the play on the floor, or the lack of any coherent plan or scheme to things. The ugliest part of this journey to program irrelevance has been the negative, caustic, and toxic culture that has been allowed to perpetuate within the Women's basketball program. I can't imagine having to try to endure everything these player's have endured just to hold onto my basketball scholarship to complete my education and play out my eligibility. No principal of any program has the right to make so many young people so abjectly miserable, just trying to desperately hold onto a job that she was never remotely experienced enough, qualified or capable of managing in the first place. This women's program used to be like a family. Now it feels like a family that suffered through an alcoholic or an abusive parent.
Someday Lappe will be fired. However, it will be too little too late for what many young women experienced in this program under her toxic environment. I'm not sure how the CU Buffs community and athletic family make that right, or we ever can. I also question why Ceal allowed that caustic environment to perpetuate, and continue.
The "Legend" of Linda Lappe is not a story written with a happy ending. Its the tale of a aspiring young coach that didn't have the experience, acumen, or recruiting presence to ever be successful in that role, long term. However, she could have taught many of these young women important life lessons about perseverance, dedication, and character lessons about how one conducts oneself when facing adversity. If there ever has been an example of what negative leadership is/was within this CU Buffs program I think we've seen that with Linda. The problem is that even when Linda finally is terminated and leaves, that certain young players on this team have been empowered by the wrong lessons and example Lappe has led. Negative culture will permeate within this program, that is Lappe's legacy, long after she's gone. That will be the Lappe Legend.
CitizenKane
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately, it has been my experience that this 'Toxic' environment within the women's basketball program is as much a reflection of Ceal as it is of Lappe. Lappe is a Ceal disciple and how she manages and controls the program is very very similar to how Ceal did things. Ceal was a far better recruiter and, lets face it, when Ceal started times and expectations were different. However, if you look at the number of transfers from CU towards the end of Ceal's tenure you will see the exact same issues were coming up. Since it sounds like you have some inside information, you will also know that the causes of these transfers is much the same. So really, it is safe to say that some of the things that are being said about Lappe here in a negative light are the same things we praised Ceal for. Based on this I am of the personal opinion that if one goes, both should go.
Ryun Williams would be a steal for the CU WBB job.
