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Northwestern players are trying to get a union started

cubuffs85 said:
Ok so you tell me the "target" since it's not the NCAAs and the NFL has already been tried. If the college system didn't exist, the NFL would have to start a minor league. These guys would get paid one way or another.

I do think the tide is changing on this one. I didn't think they would get paid 20 years ago, but I think it's going to come, just a question of when.
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That is akin to saying "your brother is picking on me and I can't kick his ass, so I am going to try to kick yours." Take on the problem, don't make more.
 
85, you seem to think the free market is a place where individuals can operate in a vacuum. Most markets are essentially made up of systems and subsets of systems that consist of groups of individuals working within agreed upon rules, offering an exchange of goods for services.

The XFL, the CFL, and whatever lame predecessors I can't remember (because they were forgettable), have tested the market and failed. Those ventures didn't die because the NFL ran them out of town, they fizzled because of lack of interest. There is a great deal of interest in college football, and nobody forces athletes to go that route. I'm not dead set against some kind of change, but I think your take is a little idealistic and naïve - no offense.

Not saying that the present arrangement shouldn't or couldn't change, but I'm not sure that the vast majority of college athletes are so unhappy or exploited. Also, if you can reward those who excel, you can punish those who don't meet expectations, which might turn NCAA football into NFL's minor leagues, and much more of a business. I don't think I want to see that.
 
SuperiorBuff said:
That is akin to saying "your brother is picking on me and I can't kick his ass, so I am going to try to kick yours." Take on the problem, don't make more.
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So take on the problem with the NFL? Even if what you are saying is valid, I can't fault the "student"-athletes for trying to take on the NCAA to try to better their situation. They'll probably lose this time around but eventually I think things will change.
 
cubuffs85 said:
Ok so you tell me the "target" since it's not the NCAAs and the NFL has already been tried. If the college system didn't exist, the NFL would have to start a minor league. These guys would get paid one way or another.

I do think the tide is changing on this one. I didn't think they would get paid 20 years ago, but I think it's going to come, just a question of when.
Click to expand...

Yes and they would get paid around $1500 per month plus per diem for the length of the season, plus any mandatory camps. No one would watch, it would be just like the minors in baseball. As it stands now a D-1 athlete is compensated anywhere from $20,000 to $50,000 per year in tuition expenses plus room and board or the equivalent stipend plus an allowance for incidentals. They are limited to working 20 hours per week during the season not including travel time.

The value in college sports is not the athletes on the field, it is in the brand of the university. Without the university, the exact same team would have limited value on the open market because at that point, most would rather just watch the NFL. Another way to look at it was that if the universities weren't compensating players at their market value, those players would find other avenues to continue to develop. They are under no obligation to sign a NLI or accept a scholarship. And they are not bound to stay after they do.
 
The Ogre said:
85, you seem to think the free market is a place where individuals can operate in a vacuum. Most markets are essentially made up of systems and subsets of systems that consist of groups of individuals working within agreed upon rules, offering an exchange of goods for services.

The XFL, the CFL, and whatever lame predecessors I can't remember (because they were forgettable), have tested the market and failed. Those ventures didn't die because the NFL ran them out of town, they fizzled because of lack of interest. There is a great deal of interest in college football, and nobody forces athletes to go that route. I'm not dead set against some kind of change, but I think your take is a little idealistic and naïve - no offense.

Not saying that the present arrangement shouldn't or couldn't change, but I'm not sure that the vast majority of college athletes are so unhappy or exploited. Also, if you can reward those who excel, you can punish those who don't meet expectations, which might turn NCAA football into NFL's minor leagues, and much more of a business. I don't think I want to see that.
Click to expand...
The NCAA was more in the right on the whole "student-athlete" thing when it wasn't a big business and coaches salaries aren't what they are today. Aren't things allowed to evolve over time?

How am I being too idealistic and naive? I never said the NFL ran any of these things out of business.
 
AeroBuff99 said:
Yes and they would get paid around $1500 per month plus per diem for the length of the season, plus any mandatory camps. No one would watch, it would be just like the minors in baseball. As it stands now a D-1 athlete is compensated anywhere from $20,000 to $50,000 per year in tuition expenses plus room and board or the equivalent stipend plus an allowance for incidentals. They are limited to working 20 hours per week during the season not including travel time.

The value in college sports is not the athletes on the field, it is in the brand of the university. Without the university, the exact same team would have limited value on the open market because at that point, most would rather just watch the NFL. Another way to look at it was that if the universities weren't compensating players at their market value, those players would find other avenues to continue to develop. They are under no obligation to sign a NLI or accept a scholarship. And they are not bound to stay after they do.
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No one would watch? Interest would be less, I don't think it would be quite like minor league baseball. Like I said earlier, nobody graduated from Colorado Springs Sky Sox. Alumni would still be interesting. You do realize how much stuff goes on "under the table?"
 
cubuffs85 said:
So take on the problem with the NFL? Even if what you are saying is valid, I can't fault the "student"-athletes for trying to take on the NCAA to try to better their situation. They'll probably lose this time around but eventually I think things will change.
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Getting to play ball with the option to possibly make it to the NFL, while receiving $50K+/year in education and associated benefits. Cry me a ****ing river.
 
AeroBuff99 said:
Yes and they would get paid around $1500 per month plus per diem for the length of the season, plus any mandatory camps. No one would watch, it would be just like the minors in baseball. As it stands now a D-1 athlete is compensated anywhere from $20,000 to $50,000 per year in tuition expenses plus room and board or the equivalent stipend plus an allowance for incidentals. They are limited to working 20 hours per week during the season not including travel time.

The value in college sports is not the athletes on the field, it is in the brand of the university. Without the university, the exact same team would have limited value on the open market because at that point, most would rather just watch the NFL. Another way to look at it was that if the universities weren't compensating players at their market value, those players would find other avenues to continue to develop. They are under no obligation to sign a NLI or accept a scholarship. And they are not bound to stay after they do.
Click to expand...


:yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat: Excellent analysis.

I would have traded all my greasy busboy jackets, hours spent washing dishes and my mighty salary of $1.50 an hour there and that $1.25/hr as a movie theatre doorman, for a FB scholly in a friggin heartbeat!

Those spoiled, coddled little boys need to see how the other 95% live, before they go off and try stupid stuff like unionizing. But then, it is Northworsten, they do things the "Chicago Way".
 
Buffenuf said:
:yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat: Excellent analysis.

I would have traded all my greasy busboy jackets, hours spent washing dishes and my mighty salary of $1.50 an hour there and that $1.25/hr as a movie theatre doorman, for a FB scholly in a friggin heartbeat!

Those spoiled, coddled little boys need to see how the other 95% live, before they go off and try stupid stuff like unionizing. But then, it is Northworsten, they do things the "Chicago Way".
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We all say this kind of thing, but when you actually get in that position you aren't satisfied.
 
cubuffs85 said:
The NCAA was more in the right on the whole "student-athlete" thing when it wasn't a big business and coaches salaries aren't what they are today. Aren't things allowed to evolve over time?

How am I being too idealistic and naive? I never said the NFL ran any of these things out of business.
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Hey, passionate people are how get things done sometimes. I didn't say you're being too idealistic and naïve, I don't even know how to quantify that. How about: Were if's and but's candy and nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas?

Are you even trying to understand what other people are saying?
 
The Ogre said:
Hey, passionate people are how get things done sometimes. I didn't say you're being too idealistic and naïve, I don't even know how to quantify that. How about: Were if's and but's candy and nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas?

Are you even trying to understand what other people are saying?
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I'm understanding what others are saying, just because you have a different take doesn't mean you can't comprehend it. I like how people only want to hear what they agree with.
 
cubuffs85 said:
Cool, I'm not sure how much you are making, but if you have enough to get by on, you shouldn't ask for a raise according to your logic. I don't agree with that.
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You are making a bogus correlation. You can ask for a raise all you want, and your employer is fully entitled to say no. Manziel is free to leave A&M at any time. He most likely won't make the amount that he is given now, but that is his choice.

What you are espousing is that since the student athletes don't like the NFL's rules and have failed to change them in court challenges, they should attack an organization that has nothing to so with those rules simply because they are successful.
 
SuperiorBuff said:
You are making a bogus correlation. You can ask for a raise all you want, and your employer is fully entitled to say no. Manziel is free to leave A&M at any time. He most likely won't make the amount that he is given now, but that is his choice.

What you are espousing is that since the student athletes don't like the NFL's rules and have failed to change them in court challenges, they should attack an organization that has nothing to so with those rules simply because they are successful.
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Exactly, so why should these people be any different?

Someone needs to do it until Curt Flood, no one dare challenge the powerful sports owners.
 
cubuffs85 said:
Exactly, so why should these people be any different?

Someone needs to do it until Curt Flood, no one dare challenge the powerful sports owners.
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Right, and if they fail to convince anyone, they are free to take their balls elsewhere. If some leave, others will be thrilled to take their places. And that is how the free market works - but you have to be careful what you ask for, you might just get it.
 
The Ogre said:
Right, and if they fail to convince anyone, they are free to take their balls elsewhere. If some leave, others will be thrilled to take their places. And that is how the free market works - but you have to be careful what you ask for, you might just get it.
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Absolutely, there could be enormous consequences if this works in the players favor.
 
cubuffs85 said:
The counter-argument is if Johnny Manziel is bringing in hundreds of millions to A&M, why shouldn't he get a larger piece of the pie?

If you were Johnny Manziel would you be happy just getting your scholarship?
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Why stop with colleges? If the star high school player is bringing ESPN and everybody to his school -why shouldn't he get a piece of the pie.

How do you square Title IX which says all athletes get paid the same?
 
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