Number of CU Football Wins in 2018?

[skibum]

But again, who cares if he is sending players to the NFL if we are losing a lot of games or barely treading water? It just seems to be cherry picking weird standards when we can really just judge on objective standards right now.

This.

MM's job is to win football games at the University of Colorado. That's the standard.

"Developing DB's for the no fun league" is not part of his job description.

 

[Burrito]

A passel.

 

[Buffnik]

My main issue with MM's performance for 2017 wasn't about going 5-7. It was the stuff that surrounded going 5-7. This was the most undiisciplined year under MM and it made the team really hard to cheer for.

1 - three players from the 2-deep on defense who were desperately needed had behavioral issues that got them kicked off the team
2 - two senior captains had behavioral issues and got suspended the first couple weeks of the season
3 - other reported issues of leadership issues with seniors and other team leaders (I was told/heard many reports that guys weren't mentoring young players, were blaming teammates for hurting their draft stock, were more focused on that week's party than that week's game, etc.)
4 - team did not improve as the season went along, the early issues remained issues -- the opposite had been a MM hallmark but he never got through to this group -- and even seemed to quit after senior day instead of showing up at Utah focused on earning a bowl game
5 - lack of "it" with the 2017 team in terms of making a play -- tentative/poor tackling, didn't make the big throw or catch or interception or strip or sack -- if there was an opportunity to win or lose a close game the Buffs were never the team that made that play

When issues with a team are so pervasive they have to be called systemic, you have to look at the top of the organization. I am very upset with MM for 2017. So far, he seems to have re-focused and is starting the offseason strong. But there's more he has to do to get me back on board for 2018.

Staff changes: Lindgren has left. Changing OCs is long overdue. The offense never performed as a top of the Pac-12 unit under him and the success of the 2017 season was dependent on having a dominant offense. It didn't come close to happening and he is rightly gone. However, more changes have to be made. Recruiting must become more of an emphasis with MM's expectations of his coaches. RECRUITING IS HALF THEIR JOB! If you don't recruit, you are automatically a failure as an assistant coach. There are at least 2 more staff changes that need to be made (Jeffcoat and Bernardi) who are not pulling their weight while they make more money than a guy like Brown who accomplishes a hell of a lot more.

Roster changes: Addition by subtraction. We had cultural issues in 2017. This offseason needs to be fairly brutal. Training and practices need to set a new standard that's going to push out guys who don't care enough but are just hanging on to get a free education. Guy who can't play even to the point of being able to achieve a role and star in it (even a limited role on special teams) need to be graduated early or transferred out. A couple guys are always hurt and need to be medically retired instead of continuing to have them take up a roster spot. There remains quite a bit of dead weight on the scholarship roster. Also, there can be no such thing as a "returning starter" or "pencil depth chart" this spring. Every single job has to be up for competition. Being an upperclassman can mean nothing in terms of winning a job. In fact, if a position battle is close to even then the tie should go to the young guy because you can gain experience & wisdom at a position with more reps but you can't gain talent with more reps. If the result of this is that the Buffs need to bring in 7 or 8 more guys through spring JUCO grads and transfers, then that's a good thing.

If MM makes these types of changes, I'll be back on board with him as the HC going into the 2018 season. Then, we better damn well make a bowl game.

 

[jizzrag85]

If the under/over for next year is 4.5 I’m going to be a very sad person. I like MM unlike some others but if he can’t make a bowl game next year we can’t just brush it off, it’s a necessity. This program needs a culture that anything less than a bowl game is an absolute disaster. Poor some water on the ****ing trash can and be done with the dumpster fire, no more mediocrity.

 

[SINKRATZ]

My main issue with MM's performance for 2017 wasn't about going 5-7. It was the stuff that surrounded going 5-7. This was the most undiisciplined year under MM and it made the team really hard to cheer for.

1 - three players from the 2-deep on defense who were desperately needed had behavioral issues that got them kicked off the team
2 - two senior captains had behavioral issues and got suspended the first couple weeks of the season
3 - other reported issues of leadership issues with seniors and other team leaders (I was told/heard many reports that guys weren't mentoring young players, were blaming teammates for hurting their draft stock, were more focused on that week's party than that week's game, etc.)
4 - team did not improve as the season went along, the early issues remained issues -- the opposite had been a MM hallmark but he never got through to this group -- and even seemed to quit after senior day instead of showing up at Utah focused on earning a bowl game
5 - lack of "it" with the 2017 team in terms of making a play -- tentative/poor tackling, didn't make the big throw or catch or interception or strip or sack -- if there was an opportunity to win or lose a close game the Buffs were never the team that made that play

When issues with a team are so pervasive they have to be called systemic, you have to look at the top of the organization. I am very upset with MM for 2017. So far, he seems to have re-focused and is starting the offseason strong. But there's more he has to do to get me back on board for 2018.

Staff changes: Lindgren has left. Changing OCs is long overdue. The offense never performed as a top of the Pac-12 unit under him and the success of the 2017 season was dependent on having a dominant offense. It didn't come close to happening and he is rightly gone. However, more changes have to be made. Recruiting must become more of an emphasis with MM's expectations of his coaches. RECRUITING IS HALF THEIR JOB! If you don't recruit, you are automatically a failure as an assistant coach. There are at least 2 more staff changes that need to be made (Jeffcoat and Bernardi) who are not pulling their weight while they make more money than a guy like Brown who accomplishes a hell of a lot more.

Roster changes: Addition by subtraction. We had cultural issues in 2017. This offseason needs to be fairly brutal. Training and practices need to set a new standard that's going to push out guys who don't care enough but are just hanging on to get a free education. Guy who can't play even to the point of being able to achieve a role and star in it (even a limited role on special teams) need to be graduated early or transferred out. A couple guys are always hurt and need to be medically retired instead of continuing to have them take up a roster spot. There remains quite a bit of dead weight on the scholarship roster. Also, there can be no such thing as a "returning starter" or "pencil depth chart" this spring. Every single job has to be up for competition. Being an upperclassman can mean nothing in terms of winning a job. In fact, if a position battle is close to even then the tie should go to the young guy because you can gain experience & wisdom at a position with more reps but you can't gain talent with more reps. If the result of this is that the Buffs need to bring in 7 or 8 more guys through spring JUCO grads and transfers, then that's a good thing.

If MM makes these types of changes, I'll be back on board with him as the HC going into the 2018 season. Then, we better damn well make a bowl game.

I agree with pretty much everything you said, but I also am highly doubtful Mac makes all the changes you suggest. So curious where you would stand with him then - pitchforks?

 

[Buffnik]

I agree with pretty much everything you said, but I also am highly doubtful Mac makes all the changes you suggest. So curious where you would stand with him then - pitchforks?

Not pitchforks. But how many wins would be needed to have me on board would go up.

 

[Burrito]

None so far.

 

[cu62nu36]

There are at least 2 more staff changes that need to be made (Jeffcoat and Bernardi) who are not pulling their weight while they make more money than a guy like Brown who accomplishes a hell of a lot more.

Do you know if Jeffcoat was responsible for recruiting Antwine and Johnson? Would that make a difference?

I agree with carrying the dead-weight, both on the roster and the staff. Gotta be ruthless or we all suffer.

 

[Buffnik]

Do you know if Jeffcoat was responsible for recruiting Antwine and Johnson? Would that make a difference?

I agree with carrying the dead-weight, both on the roster and the staff. Gotta be ruthless or we all suffer.

D.J. Eliot was the primary recruiter for both Antwine and Johnson.

Jeffcoat helped with Antwine as the secondary recruiter. With Johnson, it was mostly DaPrato helping as the secondary recruiter.

 

[c502cid]

The upperclassmen getting the automatic nod is the one thing I agree with the most, and the one thing I think MM won't change in the least. You gotta wonder when that effects recruiting. Actions, not words.

 

[DrunkRalphie]

15-0

 

[GoldenSkier]

This.

MM's job is to win football games at the University of Colorado. That's the standard.

"Developing DB's for the no fun league" is not part of his job description.

That is confusing, wouldn't you agree that a team that puts players into the NFL consistently is most likely more competitive than one that does not? If you were a 17 year old with D1 offers, you're saying that "development to NFL Caliber" is not something that you would have on your list? I think a major part of any program is the ability to offer the next step, whether it be a business school or collegiate football. These recruits want to go to the league. If we continue to do so, its a trickle type deal. Look at the recruit quality now vs 3 years ago.

 

[skibum]

That is confusing, wouldn't you agree that a team that puts players into the NFL consistently is most likely more competitive than one that does not?.

Having players make it to the league is a by-product of the coaches doing their job well, but it is definitively not something on which their performance should be measured.

I would rather MM consistently win 10 games a year and never get another DB into the league, than have him put one or two DBs into the league annually but only win 6 to 8 games a year. F that.

If I'm doing MM's performance appraisal, number of wins is my first evaluation point. # of DBs drafted doesn't even enter the conversation.

 

[GoldenSkier]

Having players make it to the league is a by-product of the coaches doing their job well, but it is definitively not something on which their performance should be measured.

I would rather MM consistently win 10 games a year and never get another DB into the league, than have him put one or two DBs into the league annually but only win 6 to 8 games a year. F that.

If I'm doing MM's performance appraisal, number of wins is my first evaluation point. # of DBs drafted doesn't even enter the conversation.

Yea obviously wins is the most important thing. Our program was terrible when he took over and look where he's brought it. Point is, I think people like you aren't willing to give him enough time to become a constant ten win team. He's shown he's able to. If we didn't lose 3 defensive players to suspension last year, maybe we win a few more games and we aren't even having this conversation. All in all I just think we take MM for granted and should recognize that he has built a very solid program.

That being said, I see your point, but I find it to be backwards. There is a direct correlation between having players drafted and winning games. Having players go to the NFL will only help CU, having them not go will hurt us. Recruits want to see players from their prospective schools going to the NFL, plain and simple. Consistent 10 win seasons don't come without consistent NFL quality players.

Regardless, MM has to pick it up and win more games because like you and every other buff fan I want 10 win seasons. I just hope MM proves me right!

 

[Duff Man]

Huh? When has MM "shown he's been able to" be a consistent winner as a HC, let alone a consistent 10-game winner? That is the whole point of the argument. He is entering year six at CU and has yet to be a consistent winner, hence the question marks.

The fact the program is better than he took over only gives him some leeway, not a complete pass when he and his team manage to somehow miss a bowl game with the easiest non-conference schedule in years.

The suspensions are a copout and do not explain how bad the defense was, and certainly does not explain away the extreme inconsistency on offense.

 

[leftybuff]

Huh? When has MM "shown he's been able to" be a consistent winner as a HC, let alone a consistent 10-game winner? That is the whole point of the argument. He is entering year six at CU and has yet to be a consistent winner, hence the question marks.

The fact the program is better than he took over only gives him some leeway, not a complete pass when he and his team manage to somehow miss a bowl game with the easiest non-conference schedule in years.

The suspensions are a copout and do not explain how bad the defense was, and certainly does not explain away the extreme inconsistency on offense.

This.

 

[lawdogg]

Really impressive how we are already in peak off-season form and 2017 hasn't even ended yet. The work some of you have put in, getting good reps practicing those arguments you want to make for and against MM, have been worth it.

 

[DrunkRalphie]

May the Colorado Buffaloes reign for a thousand years.

 

[Hawk Love]

May the Colorado Buffaloes reign for a thousand years.

...or just one!!!

 

[GoldenSkier]

Huh? When has MM "shown he's been able to" be a consistent winner as a HC, let alone a consistent 10-game winner? That is the whole point of the argument. He is entering year six at CU and has yet to be a consistent winner, hence the question marks.

The fact the program is better than he took over only gives him some leeway, not a complete pass when he and his team manage to somehow miss a bowl game with the easiest non-conference schedule in years.

The suspensions are a copout and do not explain how bad the defense was, and certainly does not explain away the extreme inconsistency on offense.

Meant he has shown he can win ten games and build that type of winner- I see how that was a confusing statement with the way it was worded. But a copout? Missing three players on a defense that just lost 8 starters and a DC is a pretty big impact. Maybe you should temper your expectations slightly, it doesn't make you a bad fan to be realistic. Point is, the man deserves a little more time. I think he's done a great job rebuilding CU and I want to see what happens next. Lets see if he can take us to the next tier.

 

[Duff Man]

Meant he has shown he can win ten games and build that type of winner- I see how that was a confusing statement with the way it was worded. But a copout? Missing three players on a defense that just lost 8 starters and a DC is a pretty big impact. Maybe you should temper your expectations slightly, it doesn't make you a bad fan to be realistic. Point is, the man deserves a little more time. I think he's done a great job rebuilding CU and I want to see what happens next. Lets see if he can take us to the next tier.

I had modest expectations for the defense in 2017 and they still underperformed.

The fans were only following the fluffy off-season narrative about the defense not REALLY losing as much as it might appear, which came directly from the AD/MM.

 

[GoldenSkier]

I had modest expectations for the defense in 2017 and they still underperformed.

The fans were only following the fluffy off-season narrative about the defense not REALLY losing as much as it might appear, which came directly from the AD/MM.

I agree, they underperformed. However, to say that their narrative carried no weight is false. 7 of those players went to the league, 4 drafted, 3 signed in free agency. On top of that, 3 players expected to have roles were lost. On top of THAT, Leavitt left. The defense REALLY DID lose as much as it appears.

 

[ahoelsken]

My main issue with MM's performance for 2017 wasn't about going 5-7. It was the stuff that surrounded going 5-7. This was the most undiisciplined year under MM and it made the team really hard to cheer for.

1 - three players from the 2-deep on defense who were desperately needed had behavioral issues that got them kicked off the team
2 - two senior captains had behavioral issues and got suspended the first couple weeks of the season
3 - other reported issues of leadership issues with seniors and other team leaders (I was told/heard many reports that guys weren't mentoring young players, were blaming teammates for hurting their draft stock, were more focused on that week's party than that week's game, etc.)
4 - team did not improve as the season went along, the early issues remained issues -- the opposite had been a MM hallmark but he never got through to this group -- and even seemed to quit after senior day instead of showing up at Utah focused on earning a bowl game
5 - lack of "it" with the 2017 team in terms of making a play -- tentative/poor tackling, didn't make the big throw or catch or interception or strip or sack -- if there was an opportunity to win or lose a close game the Buffs were never the team that made that play

When issues with a team are so pervasive they have to be called systemic, you have to look at the top of the organization. I am very upset with MM for 2017. So far, he seems to have re-focused and is starting the offseason strong. But there's more he has to do to get me back on board for 2018.

Staff changes: Lindgren has left. Changing OCs is long overdue. The offense never performed as a top of the Pac-12 unit under him and the success of the 2017 season was dependent on having a dominant offense. It didn't come close to happening and he is rightly gone. However, more changes have to be made. Recruiting must become more of an emphasis with MM's expectations of his coaches. RECRUITING IS HALF THEIR JOB! If you don't recruit, you are automatically a failure as an assistant coach. There are at least 2 more staff changes that need to be made (Jeffcoat and Bernardi) who are not pulling their weight while they make more money than a guy like Brown who accomplishes a hell of a lot more.

Roster changes: Addition by subtraction. We had cultural issues in 2017. This offseason needs to be fairly brutal. Training and practices need to set a new standard that's going to push out guys who don't care enough but are just hanging on to get a free education. Guy who can't play even to the point of being able to achieve a role and star in it (even a limited role on special teams) need to be graduated early or transferred out. A couple guys are always hurt and need to be medically retired instead of continuing to have them take up a roster spot. There remains quite a bit of dead weight on the scholarship roster. Also, there can be no such thing as a "returning starter" or "pencil depth chart" this spring. Every single job has to be up for competition. Being an upperclassman can mean nothing in terms of winning a job. In fact, if a position battle is close to even then the tie should go to the young guy because you can gain experience & wisdom at a position with more reps but you can't gain talent with more reps. If the result of this is that the Buffs need to bring in 7 or 8 more guys through spring JUCO grads and transfers, then that's a good thing.

If MM makes these types of changes, I'll be back on board with him as the HC going into the 2018 season. Then, we better damn well make a bowl game.

Well said Nik. Agree with everything in your post, and I'd add the joke of an OOC schedule to it. 2 conference wins is unacceptable.

 

[Duff Man]

I agree, they underperformed. However, to say that their narrative carried no weight is false. 7 of those players went to the league, 4 drafted, 3 signed in free agency. On top of that, 3 players expected to have roles were lost. On top of THAT, Leavitt left. The defense REALLY DID lose as much as it appears.

Of course they did and some people are now retroactively giving MM a pass. Must be nice.

 

[GoldenSkier]

My main issue with MM's performance for 2017 wasn't about going 5-7. It was the stuff that surrounded going 5-7. This was the most undiisciplined year under MM and it made the team really hard to cheer for.

1 - three players from the 2-deep on defense who were desperately needed had behavioral issues that got them kicked off the team
2 - two senior captains had behavioral issues and got suspended the first couple weeks of the season
3 - other reported issues of leadership issues with seniors and other team leaders (I was told/heard many reports that guys weren't mentoring young players, were blaming teammates for hurting their draft stock, were more focused on that week's party than that week's game, etc.)
4 - team did not improve as the season went along, the early issues remained issues -- the opposite had been a MM hallmark but he never got through to this group -- and even seemed to quit after senior day instead of showing up at Utah focused on earning a bowl game
5 - lack of "it" with the 2017 team in terms of making a play -- tentative/poor tackling, didn't make the big throw or catch or interception or strip or sack -- if there was an opportunity to win or lose a close game the Buffs were never the team that made that play

When issues with a team are so pervasive they have to be called systemic, you have to look at the top of the organization. I am very upset with MM for 2017. So far, he seems to have re-focused and is starting the offseason strong. But there's more he has to do to get me back on board for 2018.

Staff changes: Lindgren has left. Changing OCs is long overdue. The offense never performed as a top of the Pac-12 unit under him and the success of the 2017 season was dependent on having a dominant offense. It didn't come close to happening and he is rightly gone. However, more changes have to be made. Recruiting must become more of an emphasis with MM's expectations of his coaches. RECRUITING IS HALF THEIR JOB! If you don't recruit, you are automatically a failure as an assistant coach. There are at least 2 more staff changes that need to be made (Jeffcoat and Bernardi) who are not pulling their weight while they make more money than a guy like Brown who accomplishes a hell of a lot more.

Roster changes: Addition by subtraction. We had cultural issues in 2017. This offseason needs to be fairly brutal. Training and practices need to set a new standard that's going to push out guys who don't care enough but are just hanging on to get a free education. Guy who can't play even to the point of being able to achieve a role and star in it (even a limited role on special teams) need to be graduated early or transferred out. A couple guys are always hurt and need to be medically retired instead of continuing to have them take up a roster spot. There remains quite a bit of dead weight on the scholarship roster. Also, there can be no such thing as a "returning starter" or "pencil depth chart" this spring. Every single job has to be up for competition. Being an upperclassman can mean nothing in terms of winning a job. In fact, if a position battle is close to even then the tie should go to the young guy because you can gain experience & wisdom at a position with more reps but you can't gain talent with more reps. If the result of this is that the Buffs need to bring in 7 or 8 more guys through spring JUCO grads and transfers, then that's a good thing.

If MM makes these types of changes, I'll be back on board with him as the HC going into the 2018 season. Then, we better damn well make a bowl game.

I like the way you articulated this and it honestly made me think about some of the things differently. I know the ball stops with MM, but I think a lot of the issues can be contributed to losing so many leaders. I am dying to watch spring ball to see who steps up.

 

[ahoelsken]

I agree, they underperformed. However, to say that their narrative carried no weight is false. 7 of those players went to the league, 4 drafted, 3 signed in free agency. On top of that, 3 players expected to have roles were lost. On top of THAT, Leavitt left. The defense REALLY DID lose as much as it appears.

The coordinator who had to go after this season is gone. Eliot didn't do a great job, but I'm not ready to fire him. Give him next year, and if this team doesn't make a bowl.........he's probably gone anyway (MM doesn't survive staying home for the holidays next year again).

 

[The Alabaster Yak]

Of course they did and some people are now retroactively giving MM a pass. Must be nice.

I was definitely one of those people in the preseason talking up the Secondary as if losing Chido, TT and Spoon weren't going to be a huge deal. While the Secondary wasn't as big an issue as the Front 7, I was definitely wrong about that. However, I've definitely been on record saying I wish MM had moved on after the season, so no excuses here!