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OC Lindgren

Buff_since76

Buff_since76

Happy to be a fan
Club Member
I have a question, and I hope someone knows the answer:


As QB coach and OC, does Lindgren teach the QB to read the defense pre snap and make any adjustments to the play, or does he teach Sefo to call the play, look and the D, and then decide what he should do within the confines of the play?


I hope it is the former, but I am guessing it is the latter. As I re-watched the Hawaii game some time back, I saw the defensive formation and what the pre-snap reads are, and from that thought of what routes should work while then watching the play and having us do something else completely. I have only re-watched a few series in the ASU game, but the same type of things keep showing up:


First drive of the game, after we got a 1st down (so its 1st and 10), we lined up twins left (wide side) single WR right, single back and TE. ASU put 7 on the LOS looking to come bring everyone. They had 4 DBs, man coverage, with the lone safety deep on the twins (pre snap the safety moved so he was midway between the far hash and OB). This put Spruce one on one up top. It also left the entire middle of the field WIDE F-ING OPEN. They were basically giving the underneath routes as the CB were playing off the line. At the snap all 7 ASU in the box come in, and are picked up by OL, RB, and TE. Any drag, slant, or in route is going to be open as the CB's are 8ish yards off the LOS and would have to react and come in), but what do our receivers run? Nelson runs a go. Bobo (slot) runs a double move go (the first move is a fake in at about 10 yards which was just behind the CB and then go where the safety never bit or moved up) and the 3rd WR runs about an 8 yard stop (the ASU CB is sitting about 10 yards off the ball, takes only one step back and is on him) Sefo makes the only smart throw he has which is to a single covered Spruce, but the CB is stride for stride with Nelson as it is a go and he started 8 yards from the LOS with no other move given. Problem is all the routes are wrong. The rule I have always heard is take what the D gives you, and the D was giving an easy short 5 yard completion, and then requiring the DB to make an open field tackle as they had no immediate support. Even better, since the line picked up the blitz, instead of a double move, if bob just comes over the middle he will have a hell of a play. I knew the result prior to watching the play, but as I watched the D move on replay, this seemed like a read a QB should make.

This is why I ask the question.
 
I don't think Sefo is given any flexibility in terms of audibles. I think he is given the play and a back up to check to. He appears to be able to flip the play if necessary. But I don't think he is given the freedom to read a D, select a play at will, and audible to it.
 
OK,


So Lindgren calls the formation and the play. Sefo has a run and a pass option dictated to him, and can adjust to either as he sees fit. That doesn’t give much room at all for any true adjusting to the defense, which explains a lot of the results we see on the field. This isn’t an excuse for Sefo, but could be a huge issue into his struggles so far in 2015 (I also feel he spent the whole offseason trying to make sure he doesn’t do anything bad, and rather throw to the spot where the receiver will be open he waits to see that he is open prior to release).


I read earlier in the year that Bryce petty, the old bailer QB, was having a very difficult time transitioning to the NFL. The report basically said that he didn’t know how to read a defense. All he did at bailer was get in formation, look over to the sideline as the OC called the play based on the D alignment, and make a simple read to one side of the field (hot route). Other QB’s were much further ahead as they knew how to look and make adjustments based on what the defense was doing. bailer is successful as the OC is good at reading the D and adjusting the play calling to give the team a high percentage for success. Other teams are successful due to allowing the QB to read the D and make adjustments. We are the worst of all worlds as we don’t make adjustments based on the D, and the QB can only alter between run and pass.


One of the biggest issues I have with Lindgren so far this year is the formations he is calling. During Hawaii we seemed to control the game and dictate pace with Sefo under center, one or two TE, and running. During ASU the most successful series we had in the game was the 3rd series of the 1st quarter. What did we do? We ran 4 plays to move 75 yards and score a TD. On 3 of those plays we ran the ball from a 2 WR, 2 TE, 1 RB set with Sefo under center. We had 3 runs for 33 yards (worst run was for 8 yards), and on throw that we go lucky on (we threw out of an I-formation 2 TE, 1 H-back set where had we run the ball we probably would have had double digit yards). Going against the ASU 3-4 D it was a perfect alignment to put a helmet on every player on the line. It allowed us to compensate for a RsFR OL at RT, and also allowed us to run off tackle, which I would say is our strength. We had a tremendous amount of success, and then immediately went back to shotgun and 3-4 WR.



I am having the same feeling watching Bronco games as I do Buff games. I am baffled by what the offense is doing. I feel as if Lindgren spent all off season and camp implementing the shotgun offense that he feels that since this is what they practiced, this is what he has to run. Its the running the same thing, yet expecting different results. It is F-ing killing me.
 
my theory is that one of sefo's issues is that he's being asked to do more than make a post snap read. He's being asked to identify defenses as well.
 
Buff_since76 said:
OK,


So Lindgren calls the formation and the play. Sefo has a run and a pass option dictated to him, and can adjust to either as he sees fit. That doesn’t give much room at all for any true adjusting to the defense, which explains a lot of the results we see on the field. This isn’t an excuse for Sefo, but could be a huge issue into his struggles so far in 2015 (I also feel he spent the whole offseason trying to make sure he doesn’t do anything bad, and rather throw to the spot where the receiver will be open he waits to see that he is open prior to release).


I read earlier in the year that Bryce petty, the old bailer QB, was having a very difficult time transitioning to the NFL. The report basically said that he didn’t know how to read a defense. All he did at bailer was get in formation, look over to the sideline as the OC called the play based on the D alignment, and make a simple read to one side of the field (hot route). Other QB’s were much further ahead as they knew how to look and make adjustments based on what the defense was doing. bailer is successful as the OC is good at reading the D and adjusting the play calling to give the team a high percentage for success. Other teams are successful due to allowing the QB to read the D and make adjustments. We are the worst of all worlds as we don’t make adjustments based on the D, and the QB can only alter between run and pass.


One of the biggest issues I have with Lindgren so far this year is the formations he is calling. During Hawaii we seemed to control the game and dictate pace with Sefo under center, one or two TE, and running. During ASU the most successful series we had in the game was the 3rd series of the 1st quarter. What did we do? We ran 4 plays to move 75 yards and score a TD. On 3 of those plays we ran the ball from a 2 WR, 2 TE, 1 RB set with Sefo under center. We had 3 runs for 33 yards (worst run was for 8 yards), and on throw that we go lucky on (we threw out of an I-formation 2 TE, 1 H-back set where had we run the ball we probably would have had double digit yards). Going against the ASU 3-4 D it was a perfect alignment to put a helmet on every player on the line. It allowed us to compensate for a RsFR OL at RT, and also allowed us to run off tackle, which I would say is our strength. We had a tremendous amount of success, and then immediately went back to shotgun and 3-4 WR.



I am having the same feeling watching Bronco games as I do Buff games. I am baffled by what the offense is doing. I feel as if Lindgren spent all off season and camp implementing the shotgun offense that he feels that since this is what they practiced, this is what he has to run. Its the running the same thing, yet expecting different results. It is F-ing killing me.
Click to expand...

The story you gave with Bryce Petty is the same reason Chase Daniel will be a career backup QB. He never had to make a read, the Offensive Coordinator did all of that for him.
 
b3buffs said:
The story you gave with Bryce Petty is the same reason Chase Daniel will be a career backup QB. He never had to make a read, the Offensive Coordinator did all of that for him.
Click to expand...
Then let's do it. I would take either qb's success in college. I don't care about the pros. I want to win now. If this is what it takes to get Sefo to start hitting wide open receivers what are we waiting for?
 
bigskybuff said:
Then let's do it. I would take either qb's success in college. I don't care about the pros. I want to win now. If this is what it takes to get Sefo to start hitting wide open receivers what are we waiting for?
Click to expand...
For sure. What I don't get is this stuff is on film...don't Sefo and BL see this and work on it? "Hey Sefo, when scrambling look downfield at #4 waving his arms".
 
bigskybuff said:
Then let's do it. I would take either qb's success in college. I don't care about the pros. I want to win now. If this is what it takes to get Sefo to start hitting wide open receivers what are we waiting for?
Click to expand...

In order to do this, we need to change the offense to the:

Everyone run up to the line of scrimmage
Sefo, yell out a few things
Let the OC look at how the D is lined up
Everyone turn and look at the sideline to see what the OC wants as the play call
Sefo look to one side and see what the LB/S are doing and make your throw based on that

This isn't my cup of tea from an offensive stand point, but if it works I'm all for it. The thing you need to have happen though is having an OC who is good at understanding the defensive alignment and calling plays quickly based on that.
 
Darth Snow said:
my theory is that one of sefo's issues is that he's being asked to do more than make a post snap read. He's being asked to identify defenses as well.
Click to expand...
Well I would think he should know how to do that by now. I don't question his work ethic at all. Only problem is, if he can't identify a D by now, he's been coached piss poor.
 
BuffLuKe said:
Well I would think he should know how to do that by now. I don't question his work ethic at all. Only problem is, if he can't identify a D by now, he's been coached piss poor.
Click to expand...
Also seems true of other players as well...
 
Need to wrap this recruiting class up with a few JUCOs who can come in and immediately get playing time.
 
Shldr2Shldr said:
I don't think Sefo is given any flexibility in terms of audibles. I think he is given the play and a back up to check to. He appears to be able to flip the play if necessary. But I don't think he is given the freedom to read a D, select a play at will, and audible to it.
Click to expand...

I think you may be right. At the end of the 1st half against ASU after the roughing the passer call, the refs placed the ball and started the clock (about 40 seconds were left) - Sefo sees the clock running and looks to the sideline and points to the clock like he is waiting for instructions from the staff. Finally they call their final timeout with 26 seconds left. I think CU struggles with clock management because everything has to be run through the chain of command and the players on the field are taught to wait for instructions. Not enough time for that all the time.
 
BlackNGold said:
I think you may be right. At the end of the 1st half against ASU after the roughing the passer call, the refs placed the ball and started the clock (about 40 seconds were left) - Sefo sees the clock running and looks to the sideline and points to the clock like he is waiting for instructions from the staff. Finally they call their final timeout with 26 seconds left. I think CU struggles with clock management because everything has to be run through the chain of command and the players on the field are taught to wait for instructions. Not enough time for that all the time.
Click to expand...

Ya. There are times where scripted plays are appropriate from the coaches, but sometimes you need to give the offense 4 or 5 plays and let them figure it out. Especially when its late in the clock or all the way down near the goal line where the coaches can't go.
 
BlackNGold said:
I think you may be right. At the end of the 1st half against ASU after the roughing the passer call, the refs placed the ball and started the clock (about 40 seconds were left) - Sefo sees the clock running and looks to the sideline and points to the clock like he is waiting for instructions from the staff. Finally they call their final timeout with 26 seconds left. I think CU struggles with clock management because everything has to be run through the chain of command and the players on the field are taught to wait for instructions. Not enough time for that all the time.
Click to expand...

So, a lack of creativity.

I always thought that a QB coach worked on step by step mechanics more than anything else.
 
MiamiBuffs said:
So, a lack of creativity.

I always thought that a QB coach worked on step by step mechanics more than anything else.
Click to expand...
Mechanics are not a significant part of the job. Most these guys already know how to throw and understand the concepts. So if someone has a problem with the mechanics - it is pointed out and then the player works on correcting it with a little supervision (7 on 7 Drills all summer - go to the Manning camp, that is the time to work on mechanics). The QB coach needs to help the QB read defenses and know the throws against those defenses.
 
BlackNGold said:
Mechanics are not a significant part of the job. Most these guys already know how to throw and understand the concepts. So if someone has a problem with the mechanics - it is pointed out and then the player works on correcting it with a little supervision (7 on 7 Drills all summer - go to the Manning camp, that is the time to work on mechanics). The QB coach needs to help the QB read defenses and know the throws against those defenses.
Click to expand...

Sefo did not have a qb coach to develop his mechanics in high school, and he had limited camp exposure.
 
BlackNGold said:
Mechanics are not a significant part of the job. Most these guys already know how to throw and understand the concepts. So if someone has a problem with the mechanics - it is pointed out and then the player works on correcting it with a little supervision (7 on 7 Drills all summer - go to the Manning camp, that is the time to work on mechanics). The QB coach needs to help the QB read defenses and know the throws against those defenses.
Click to expand...
I don't know. I never was a skill position player, but I am amazed at the progress my son has made with some minimal private pitching work. A few tweaks to his mechanics made a world of difference.
 
BlackNGold said:
I think you may be right. At the end of the 1st half against ASU after the roughing the passer call, the refs placed the ball and started the clock (about 40 seconds were left) - Sefo sees the clock running and looks to the sideline and points to the clock like he is waiting for instructions from the staff. Finally they call their final timeout with 26 seconds left. I think CU struggles with clock management because everything has to be run through the chain of command and the players on the field are taught to wait for instructions. Not enough time for that all the time.
Click to expand...

The chain of command is Lindgren to QBs on sideline to Sefo. It's pretty much the way all CFB programs do it.

Based on what the QB sees, he can checkdown to a small number of counter-options. CU is not doing this differently than other programs. The execution is the issue, not the method.

You've got to make the Defense pay for bringing 6 guys time and again. Every pass play should have built in "hot" routes and I am not seeing them. Basically a slant route to a WR in single coverage with no LB dropping back is payback. Where is it?
 
buffaholic said:
The chain of command is Lindgren to QBs on sideline to Sefo. It's pretty much the way all CFB programs do it.

Based on what the QB sees, he can checkdown to a small number of counter-options. CU is not doing this differently than other programs. The execution is the issue, not the method.

You've got to make the Defense pay for bringing 6 guys time and again. Every pass play should have built in "hot" routes and I am not seeing them. Basically a slant route to a WR in single coverage with no LB dropping back is payback. Where is it?
Click to expand...
Instead we get 3 Go's and a double move.
 
skibum said:
Our QB can't hit that pass.



And other teams know it.
Click to expand...

He could last year and he can't now. Which is why we need Apsay in there, who is the most accurate, quick release guy on the team. Defenses can't bring that kind of pressure if we can hit that pass.

We should also be able to exploit that defense with inside zone blocking and run the ball to the 2nd level all day long.
 
buffaholic said:
He could last year and he can't now. Which is why we need Apsay in there, who is the most accurate, quick release guy on the team. Defenses can't bring that kind of pressure if we can hit that pass.

We should also be able to exploit that defense with inside zone blocking and run the ball to the 2nd level all day long.
Click to expand...


To the bolded. How do we know this? He has attempted 6 passes. He completed 4 of them. He has not thrown a TD. His only game experience was against the 3rd string of the worst team in D1. Sure his release was pretty quick, but at 66% he wasn't far more accurate than the starter.

The back up QB is everyone's favorite...
 
Shldr2Shldr said:
To the bolded. How do we know this? He has attempted 6 passes. He completed 4 of them. He has not thrown a TD. His only game experience was against the 3rd string of the worst team in D1. Sure his release was pretty quick, but at 66% he wasn't far more accurate than the starter.

The back up QB is everyone's favorite...
Click to expand...
I don't think he's everyone's favorite right now, but I do think he's everyone's question mark. Even if it's to spell Sefo, those reps and that question mark are important. Like it or not, I still think Sefo is our best chance to win.
 
buffaholic said:
He could last year and he can't now. Which is why we need Apsay in there, who is the most accurate, quick release guy on the team. Defenses can't bring that kind of pressure if we can hit that pass.

We should also be able to exploit that defense with inside zone blocking and run the ball to the 2nd level all day long.
Click to expand...
I think you're a little premature with the praise for Aspay, but since the OL is **** and Sefo can't perform with them in there, trying something different to me seems logical. But barring an injury to Sefo, I can't see that happening.
 
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