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*** Official 2015 Colorado @ Seattle Basketball Game Thread ***

seattlebuff said:
I feel bad for Josh ... he could be in for a rough senior year, right when he's auditioning for the NBA. We're going to see so much zone next year, he's looking at double/triple teams all year. Not only do we not have good shooters over the top, we also have no slashers to draw the defense and dish to Josh and Wes for easy buckets. Tad has got to do something drastic. Total offensive scheme makeover. Same duds executing it, but we're stuck with them, gotta try something.
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And this along with many other comments is why it was good for the Buffs to join the CBI, to get a status check and a better look at next year's team. So the performance was poor - unacceptable - at least there's no disguising the dire situation, that a slide has begun that will take drastic actions to correct. I applaud Tad and CU for taking the risk (money and embarrassment) to get a better feel for the status.

Now I'll leave it up to others to continue advising Tad about what to do - it's going to be hard to bring in better talent, and clearly what's there isn't going to work, regardless of revised schemes etc. At this point finishing .500 next year is looking like a good season.
 
We're a mess. We'll see what happens this offseason. As we saw this season, things change quickly in basketball -- for better or for worse. Can't say I'm wildly optimistic about where this program is headed right now, to be honest. We have whiffed a few too many times. Embarrassingly bad guard play. Has to be as bad as it gets of power conference teams. I look at the big picture and I have trouble escaping the feeling that Tad needs a big season next year. It was supposed to be a big one. Josh and XJ as seniors, Fortune and Dom. It's a best-case scenario dream at this point. Simply improving and making the NIT doesn't bode well for the future and it's hard to see more than that. Who knows, things can change quickly, if a player or two we aren't expecting step up we're back in business. Demoralizing season...feels like our momentum is completely lost and it's going to take some major work to reclaim.
 
As for the CBI, I thought we'd be in it to win it if we accepted and thus I was in favor. I didn't think we'd be playing road games left and right. Had we won tonight, we would have flown to Chicago to play Loyola on WEDNESDAY...and then if we won that only 1 of 3 games at home in the final series against Vermont or UL Monroe. I'm fine with playing a couple road games, but planning to play 4 true road games is asinine. We never had a chance. Either go in and throw down to play a few home games or don't bother. I'm fine with a couple road games, god knows we need to learn how to stop being so gutless on the road. However, this was a waste. Only go into this if you're in it to win it, which includes throwing down cash for at least an equal amount of home/road games. It's not exactly breaking the bank when Seattle can afford it.
 
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CVilleBuff said:
As for the CBI, I thought we'd be in it to win it if we accepted and thus I was in favor. I didn't think we'd be playing road games left and right. Had we won tonight, we would have flown to Chicago to play Loyola on WEDNESDAY...and then if we won that only 1 of 3 games at home in the final series against Vermont or UL Monroe. I'm fine with playing a couple road games, but planning to play 4 true road games is asinine. We never had a chance. Either go in and throw down to play a few home games or don't bother. I'm fine with a couple road games, god knows we need to learn how to stop being so gutless on the road. However, this was a waste. Only go into this if you're in it to win it, which includes throwing down cash for at least an equal amount of home/road games. It's not exactly breaking the bank when Seattle can afford it.
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Moot point. We lost our first road game and it wasn't really close.
 
CVilleBuff said:
As for the CBI, I thought we'd be in it to win it if we accepted and thus I was in favor. I didn't think we'd be playing road games left and right. Had we won tonight, we would have flown to Chicago to play Loyola on WEDNESDAY...and then if we won that only 1 of 3 games at home in the final series against Vermont or UL Monroe. I'm fine with playing a couple road games, but planning to play 4 true road games is asinine. We never had a chance. Either go in and throw down to play a few home games or don't bother. I'm fine with a couple road games, god knows we need to learn how to stop being so gutless on the road. However, this was a waste. Only go into this if you're in it to win it, which includes throwing down cash for at least an equal amount of home/road games. It's not exactly breaking the bank when Seattle can afford it.
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I'm not sure beating a few lower-tier teams at CEC is a worthwhile effort. Understand that as a fan, the loss tonight was frustrating to the point of being shocking (if we're not already numbed to further shocks). In retrospect, participating in the CBI may not have accomplished much other than exposing the sad state of the team. But it seemed reasonable to me to go into a tourney against basically the same type of teams we schedule for OOC, except that in the OOC we force them to play at CEC, and for once get a chance to play these teams on the road. I anticipated we could win the thing with 3 or 4 road games - unfortunately we couldn't even get past the first road test.
 
So I believe Tad could care less about winning the CBI and really just wanted to get a look at the roster without ski. He wants to see how guys play and show up on the road, which has been a problem for him the entire time he flags been here. He needs t see which guys are committed to winning and will show the focus, discipline and attitude to do it.

Sadly I think Tad got his answer, which hasn't changed and we may see more roster changes coming.
 
89BUFF89 said:
Tads built up a lot of cred but I am very concerned about this team next season...
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If a coach has 4+ years at a school, that coach has his players/recruits playing his system, if it is failing, the coach is responsible. This falls on Boyle's shoulders. That was a poorly coached game! He already knows he hasn't recruited enough talent (or cannot teach them) to beat a zone, that is a repeatable fact. The easiest way to beat a zone (particularly when your team struggles against a zone) is to run - not let them set up. Yet Boyle was on the sideline instructing them to slow down (which allows the defense to set).
This was the CBI, and perhaps he was tinkering with lineups, but his lineup decisions were poor. Not a lot to take away from this game or tournament, so I am not going to overreact, but Boyle needs to be accountable for what is going on.
 
JRourk said:
If a coach has 4+ years at a school, that coach has his players/recruits playing his system, if it is failing, the coach is responsible. This falls on Boyle's shoulders. That was a poorly coached game! He already knows he hasn't recruited enough talent (or cannot teach them) to beat a zone, that is a repeatable fact. The easiest way to beat a zone (particularly when your team struggles against a zone) is to run - not let them set up. Yet Boyle was on the sideline instructing them to slow down (which allows the defense to set).
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OK, I agree with most of this, but I have to ask one thing - how do you know Tad was on the sideline instructing them to slow down? The damn camera couldn't even show you the part of the court by the CU bench.
 
Goose said:
OK, I agree with most of this, but I have to ask one thing - how do you know Tad was on the sideline instructing them to slow down? The damn camera couldn't even show you the part of the court by the CU bench.
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Good question... Despite wanting to listen to the KOA broadcast, there was a delay, so I was forced to listen to the Seattle broadcast team. You could hear Boyle in that HS sized gym, particularly when Seattle did not score. I am not stating he told the team this every trip down the court, but I heard him at least six times, instructing them to slow down when they had break opportunities.
 
JRourk said:
Good question... Despite wanting to listen to the KOA broadcast, there was a delay, so I was forced to listen to the Seattle broadcast team. You could hear Boyle in that HS sized gym, particularly when Seattle did not score. I am not stating he told the team this every trip down the court, but I heard him at least six times, instructing them to slow down when they had break opportunities.
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I didn't hear that. Not saying you're wrong, but I'm not sure how you could understand anything on that broadcast.
 
We have the talent to play defense. It's all about effort and our guys mostly aren't willing to put it out.

XT is to limited offensively. The only way he should be playing is if he is an absolute stud on D but he isn't. Instead he is lazy to get to the shooter leaving 3 point shooters open time after time. Seattles guards weren't open because of a great scheme or because they created shots, they were open because our guards didn't hustle to cover the shooters. This game turned on a bunch of fairly uncontested 3 point shots and many of those were on XT.

XJ has an NBA body. If he wants any shot though he is going to have to show he is serious and he isn't. Everyone in the pros can score. Unless you are way better than XJ you have to prove you can and will defend, he doesn't. Also the best part of his game is in or coming out o transition. Transition opportunities don't happen without D and it needs to start with him.

Unless Tad is willing to tell some of his favorites next season to play hard on both ends or sit Fortune and the young guys won't help much. The ugly season some of you are predicting will happen and the momentum that Tad built in the program will be lost.
 
Goose said:
I didn't hear that. Not saying you're wrong, but I'm not sure how you could understand anything on that broadcast.
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I was there, sitting directly across from the CU bench ... Tad did tell them to slow down a few times. Maybe that was because the few times we pushed it, we either turned it over or we threw up a crappy shot with 3 guys on the shooter.

I don't think this is an effort or desire to play great D issue ... sure, we're not great in either of those areas. Wish we were. Might make some difference. But this is a talent issue. We have whiffed on so many players in a row now, we're seeing the impact of inept recruiting. I do not know what Tad or his staff saw in JHop, Talton, Stalzer, Gordon or even Fletcher in HS that made them think these kids were going to take CU to the next level. Christ, Tad recruited Ben Mills.

Every single D1 school in the country has the ability to find the prototypical slasher/creator/shooter guard ... like the two from Seattle last night. Guys who know how to create their own offense off the dribble. Tad has recruited exactly two in 4+ years. That is shocking.

Look at what an eye for talent has done for Utah. 3 years ago, they were 3-15. They find Wright, Loveridge, Taylor, etc. and now they're a Sweet 16 team. And they didn't land those guys on Utah's legacy ... the glory years of Majerus are long ago.

Tad should be embarassed at how badly he's been lapped by the Pac 12 in recruiting.
 
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My guess, just from knowing how Tad would love to be running a "40 min of hell" variant, is he was trying to get them to mentally slow down. Play smarter and stop over thinking. He could have been telling them to slow the pace, but I could be wrong.
 
seattlebuff said:
I was there, sitting directly across from the CU bench ... Tad did tell them to slow down a few times. Maybe that was because the few times we pushed it, we either turned it over or we threw up a crappy shot with 3 guys on the shooter.
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Gracias. Like I said, I couldn't tell **** on the stream.
 
I was as angry/disappointed/ashamed to see we had lost this morning as any other CU fan. I do think that this is the glaring lesson on why programs don't accept invites from these tournaments though. Throw together all the cliches, but it seems to come down to the players don't have motivation to be there, and the pain ends if they take their foot off the gas consciously or unconsciously. As one of the previous posts mentioned they were looking at an additional 4-5 road games in a season that was already over and a failure to meet their own expectations. I thought that talent alone would have carried them further, but this is a clear display of the difference between a team wanting to be there and a team that doesn't.

Sure that may be an indication that some of these guys aren't pure competitors fueled by a desire to win anywhere under any circumstances, but I don't think it is quite as cancerous as the loss makes it out to be. Circumstances do make a difference, if they didn't 2-3 big boy programs would jump on the CBI each year for a chance to cash in some hardware. Had this team been ready to win anywhere anytime they wouldn't have been in this situation.

I think Coach Boyle continues to learn as a head coach. I don't know the man personally, but having listened to him a fair amount over the years I do believe he took this career path on because he wanted to grow in the field. He has to learn these lessons just as we do as fans. He has always taken the mentality that any tournament was a good opportunity for more games and more exposure, however I would be very surprised if CU jumped at the CBI again anytime soon, (hopefully they have better options anyway).

Just a few of the lessons for him this season may involve team make up and chemistry, and calculating a balance between raw talent, and mental toughness/leadership. Verbals from the JC guys may be a part of that process. I think that this is going to be as entertaining a hoops offseason as we have had around here, (euro trips aside).
 
seattlebuff said:
I was there, sitting directly across from the CU bench ... Tad did tell them to slow down a few times. Maybe that was because the few times we pushed it, we either turned it over or we threw up a crappy shot with 3 guys on the shooter.

I don't think this is an effort or desire to play great D issue ... sure, we're not great in either of those areas. Wish we were. Might make some difference. But this is a talent issue. We have whiffed on so many players in a row now, we're seeing the impact of inept recruiting. I do not know what Tad or his staff saw in JHop, Talton, Stalzer, Gordon or even Fletcher in HS that made them think these kids were going to take CU to the next level. Christ, Tad recruited Ben Mills.

Ever single D1 (and even some D2) schools in the country has the ability to find the prototypical slasher/creator/shooter guard ... like the two from Seattle last night. Tad has recruited exactly one in four years. That is shocking.

Look at what an eye for talent has done for Utah. 3 years ago, they were 3-15. They find Wright, Loveridge, Taylor, etc. and now they're a Sweet 16 team. And they didn't land those guys on Utah's legacy ... the glory years of Majerus are long ago.

Tad should be embarassed at how badly he's been lapped by the Pac 12 in recruiting.
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Defense is effort, and consistent effort has not been what we have seen from this team. This is not a talent issue when you are playing Seattle, or Garnder-Webb, or Wazzu, or USC, or OSU, it's an effort issue. Tad pointed it out after the GW game last week, this team has pick and chose when they wanted to show up and play.

As for your comments on Hopkins, Gordon, and Fletcher. Lots of schools wanted those guys. Gordon to a lesser extent, but Hopkins and Fletcher both had P5 offers out of high school. You're correct on Talton and Staltzer, but off on the other three. Hopkins was a top-150 recruit with multiple P5 offers, and was a 4* when he committed. Fletcher was another top-150 recruit with multiple P5 offers. Gordon only had a offer from us, but he was a 4* on ESPN and committed to us early so he may have gotten other offers had he waited it out. Using Mills as an example is just wrong, that was right after Tad was hired, at the end of the cycle, and he needed a big man. If you're going to take a flyer, take a flyer on a 7'0" kid. And really, if we are talking about slashers, Hopkins and Fletcher are slashers. Both can shoot the 3 ball at a good rate to.

Utah got very luck with Delon Wright. He was a 3* JUCO coming out with his only other offer being from Wazzu. Loveridge was a top-150 recruit wtih offers similar to Hopkins and Fletcher. Wright helps prove a point though, it only takes one player to turn a team around and a real PG is huge. Unfortunately, we missed on the 2012 guard class and our PG is a 18 year old kid. Talton and Eli aren't Pac 12 guards. Ski isn't playing. Dom isn't big enough to be a true PG...yet.
 
I too was at the game last night and left that place utterly disgusted. Could have dominated inside all game had we tried, yet all we did was chuck up three's all night long. Tad was trying to coach but from what I could see guys like Jhop and Talton totally tune him out. He is talking to them and it looks like they are just ignoring him. Hopkins is awful, Stalzer should never see a minute of playing time again and Talton isn't far behind. I know Tad is trying to see what he has out there but Hopkins, Stalzer and Talton hurt this team. I sat directly across from the CU bench too and it was very apparent who cared and had some pride. XJ is flat our brain dead, awful defense, bad shots, and zero basketball smarts. example 1, half winding down shot clock off, CU has the ball and he throws up a 3 with 22 seconds on the clock. Misses of course and almost allows Seattle U top tie up the game. Then we get a 9 point lead on a WAC team and proceed to not even get a shot off and turn the ball over on 4 consecutive trips. Just inexcusable stuff.

I was excited to be so close and root for these guys and they lay a total egg in the second half. Tad seriously has his work cut out with this roster as it is. There was good numbers of Buff fans there and we made some noise sadly we cared more than they did. It sounds harsh but sitting so close you can actually see and hear these guys and it wasn't pretty. Scott played hard all night, Collier played hard, Fletch cared and a few others. Not sure what to make of Gordon, he's just out there and doing things, nothing horrible, nothing good, sort of just exists. Ugh thanks god 2014-15 is dead and over for CU Hoops. Go Buffs
 
Say what you want about missing on guys, but we have more raw talent than a middling WAC team.
 
EscapeFromNMBuff said:
Say what you want about missing on guys, but we have more raw talent than a middling WAC team.
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We do have way more raw talent, but is it the right talent and is it willing to do what it takes to win.

As stated earlier we don't play defense, we have to many guys who don't work hard on defense and who don't play smart on defense.

On offense do we have on guard other than Dom who is still small and young who even tries to make his teammates more effective, make them better.

How many of the teams in the sweet 16 don't have at least one solid PG with a PG mentality, most have a starter and one coming off the bench. We again excepting Dom don't have that or even close.

The guys Seattle put out there at guard last night would get chewed up and spit out in the PAC but they beat us like a drum because we let them.
 
Darth Snow said:
Not at guard, iyam. Everywhere else, hell yes.
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I'd actually agree with you. If Ski plays we win, but he didn't. None of those other guys even had a sniff of a P5 offer. That doesn't mean their PG is P5 caliber because he wouldn't fare well in the pac.

Was tad big on recruiting guards like Mizzou? At this point more chefs in the kitchen would be better than no chef in the kitchen
 
Face it. We're doomed. It was a nice little run. Now back to the bottom of the conference. I'm utterly discouraged, distraught, disenchanted and disgusted. :sad1:
 
'Tini said:
That time of the month for ya?
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You wouldn't understand,

at his age he's post-menopausal.

I though am worried as well. It seems that the energy and optimism in the program is gone. The players with some notable exceptions aren't focused on playing hard and doing the dirty work like they did in Tad's first years.

When you lose that feeling around your program it is hard to get it back, it's also hard to get the recruits you want to buy in.

Tad needs to do some fixing next season and get us back on the right track or we could slide back into mediocrity easily.
 
seattlebuff said:
Umm, actually ... Wes Gordon was outplayed by their big man Jack Crook. Based on eyeball test, I'd take Crook.
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If you're going to choose based on one game, then I suppose you'll choose CSU and Wyoming's big guy over Josh Scott. I don't feel like looking up other games where Scott was out performed, but you get my point.
 
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