Official "I'm off the bandwagon" thread

[FLounder]

The Hawkins hire/retention was THE worst hire in the history of modern college football. A vomitfest disaster.

Not hire, but retention yes.

 

[DBT]

Good post. Agree 100%



I never expected a bowl game with this team and I was a bit surprised some here were predicting that. We'll see where we are after Year 3 before I'm ready to jump off the bandwagon..

I think Nik is the only one who actually predicted it.

 

[1989Buff]

Tad Boyle has shattered the notion that you can't win here. He was a little lucky, though. Bz left him with a fully functional and reasonably talented roster. MM had no such luxury. Point being that there should no longer be a perception that there are obstructions here that prevent a coach from succeeding.

Pointing out the obvious here...but a few good basketball players can transform a team. Much less likely to happen in football where so many more bodies are in play.

The killer isn't the skill positions, it's the lines (and linebacker). The OL and DL especially is hard to fix quickly because of the size requirements. That, and you need a lot of bodies (good ones for a good team). That's really where the rebuilding takes time (and, as you might expect, it was a place where we seemed particularly hard hit with the coaching turnovers since the end of the GB era).

I mean, we would get a really good guy here or there on the lines (or at linebacker), but not a group of them. That's where the talent differential is a killer, and where the coaches need time to really fix that problem. We need wins to recruit better, and we need big juniors and seniors on the lines to take the step to the real next level. That's years. How many classes has Mac had? We have just started this climb back in terms of recruiting. We can't recruit great players yet. We need to find some guys who can play better than expected, who can then help us get a few wins more to then get guys that are better than what we can get now. And THEN for the DL/OL positions, they need to mature. That's a long time gang. Switch coaches again and we just deepen this problem and make the climb that much longer.

Let's face it...if we think we have a competent coach (and Hawkins and Embree were clearly NOT that) we need to ride him for a while.The idea that every time we have bad games (or years) coaches need to change is probably not going to work out in our favor (even if that might be the right answer at a more healthy program).

We need continuity. It might even be worth keeping coaches who aren't doing the best of jobs IF the value of continuity outweighs the likelihood of us actually getting better coaches to take what is not a great job right now.

Those on this board who are savvy already know this is going to take years (and there very well might be backsteps). Getting jumpy and impatient will deepen our problems. We need seniors, we need bodies, and we need to then parlay that into BETTER, FASTER, BIGGER upperclassmen. That's a long process. Expecting anything else is really a pipedream. Yes...the Hawkins extension was a killer (and pretty much everyone I spoke to thought it was a horrible idea at the time). We are still overcoming that and Jon E's hire. It's year 2 folks...like it or not, we are still at the beginning of this process.

Reminds me of a Churchill quote:
Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.

 

[Mr. Babar]

Pointing out the obvious here...but a few good basketball players can transform a team. Much less likely to happen in football where so many more bodies are in play.

The killer isn't the skill positions, it's the lines (and linebacker). The OL and DL especially is hard to fix quickly because of the size requirements. That, and you need a lot of bodies (good ones for a good team). That's really where the rebuilding takes time (and, as you might expect, it was a place where we seemed particularly hard hit with the coaching turnovers since the end of the GB era).

I mean, we would get a really good guy here or there on the lines (or at linebacker), but not a group of them. That's where the talent differential is a killer, and where the coaches need time to really fix that problem. We need wins to recruit better, and we need big juniors and seniors on the lines to take the step to the real next level. That's years. How many classes has Mac had? We have just started this climb back in terms of recruiting. We can't recruit great players yet. We need to find some guys who can play better than expected, who can then help us get a few wins more to then get guys that are better than what we can get now. And THEN for the DL/OL positions, they need to mature. That's a long time gang. Switch coaches again and we just deepen this problem and make the climb that much longer.

Let's face it...if we think we have a competent coach (and Hawkins and Embree were clearly NOT that) we need to ride him for a while.The idea that every time we have bad games (or years) coaches need to change is probably not going to work out in our favor (even if that might be the right answer at a more healthy program).

We need continuity. It might even be worth keeping coaches who aren't doing the best of jobs IF the value of continuity outweighs the likelihood of us actually getting better coaches to take what is not a great job right now.

Those on this board who are savvy already know this is going to take years (and there very well might be backsteps). Getting jumpy and impatient will deepen our problems. We need seniors, we need bodies, and we need to then parlay that into BETTER, FASTER, BIGGER upperclassmen. That's a long process. Expecting anything else is really a pipedream. Yes...the Hawkins extension was a killer (and pretty much everyone I spoke to thought it was a horrible idea at the time). We are still overcoming that and Jon E's hire. It's year 2 folks...like it or not, we are still at the beginning of this process.

Reminds me of a Churchill quote:
Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.

Truth. Logic. Outstanding post.

People losing their minds in 3... 2... 1...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[sackman]

While I agree, I feel compelled to point out that Bzdelik/Boyle didn't turn around the hoops program with one or two players. It was turned around over a long period, with a lot of players, many of whom were not considered top recruits.

 

[rynobuff]

So any new takers?

Your act is getting quite tired.

 

[buffs233]

Would you say recruiting is improving, regressing, or staying about the same over the previous two years?

Recruiting has obviously regressed over the last two years. Since Embree left, recruiting has been embarrassingly bad. No concern though - a much lower standard is applied to MacIntyre. Wonder why?

 

[gobuffs58]

Tad Boyle has shattered the notion that you can't win here. He was a little lucky, though. Bz left him with a fully functional and reasonably talented roster. MM had no such luxury. Point being that there should no longer be a perception that there are obstructions here that prevent a coach from succeeding.

much easier in hoops to turn things around...you need just a couple key recruits... (not taking anything away from the job tad is doing)...football a whole diff story

 

[Bufffan68]

The Hawkins hire/retention was THE worst hire in the history of modern college football. A vomitfest disaster.

Embree was the worst hire. Hawkins the worst retention.

 

[CUFan]

I understand why we blow, but that doesn't mean I have to be happy. I am also worried about recruiting. We need more talent on the OL and DL. Are we really recruiting better talent in those areas at this point?

I'd like to see RG send a message this offseason that this kind of season is unacceptable. As I recall he felt this was a 6 win team. Some changes need to be made. Some on this staff are either in over their heads or just not good (coaching and recruiting).

 

[Bufffan68]

I understand why we blow, but that doesn't mean I have to be happy. I am also worried about recruiting. We need more talent on the OL and DL. Are we really recruiting better talent in those areas at this point?

I'd like to see RG send a message this offseason that this kind of season is unacceptable. As I recall he felt this was a 6 win team. Some changes need to be made. Some on this staff are either in over their heads or just not good (coaching and recruiting).

I say we get the DC at a smaller school with a great D, like Marshall, Louisville or Duke. Or an assistant from Stanford.

 

[CUFan]

I say we get the DC at a smaller school with a great D, like Marshall, Louisville or Duke. Or an assistant from Stanford.

MikeMac definitely needs to bring in some new blood. Probably needs to be young and ambitious like I think you are suggesting.

 

[sackman]

much easier in hoops to turn things around...you need just a couple key recruits... (not taking anything away from the job tad is doing)...football a whole diff story

My point still stands. There should no longer be the perception that there is some kind of administrative roadblock to success at CU. Regardless of the sport involved. The TABOR issues have been pretty well dealt with, as I think 2 or 3 assistants can now get multi-year contracts. There's nothing structural that is standing in the way of a coach having success here. The pay is good, the school is good, the support is there, the facilities are nearly there.

 

[MiamiBuffs]

Tad Boyle has shattered the notion that you can't win here. He was a little lucky, though. Bz left him with a fully functional and reasonably talented roster. MM had no such luxury. Point being that there should no longer be a perception that there are obstructions here that prevent a coach from succeeding.

Tad & Bz did do a good job. And to their credit none of their players have attracted unneeded attention to the program so far. However, I don't think that coaching community is paid attention to by the national football coaching community. Do the BBall recruits have the same criteria? Facilities issues? I just really don't know but I don't think they do. A gym is a gym is a gym. The foam dome is not a bad facility compared to some of the ones Ive seen on other campuses.

I think Rick George is slowly changing the perception, inside the coaching community, that CU is a good place. Kicking off the facility construction has probably helped. I can't help but think how dumb we looked in the coaching world when we 1. extended Hawkins and 2. hired Embree and then 3. promptly fired him. What was the message in that? "We only want coaches with a clean nose" and "we tolerate losing" and "we will fire you after one season". wtf??? I still think there are a lot of guys out there with big names that looked at what Hawkins and Embree left them to work with and thought, um no, I can't fix that. There is someplace easier I can go and turn it around without getting fired after 1 year that has lower academics and I can give my assistants contracts. Add it all up and I think CU is perceived as a place to be avoided for a "big name" coach. So, were going to get guy like M2 until proven otherwise.

 

[DBT]

Tad & Bz did do a good job. And to their credit none of their players have attracted unneeded attention to the program so far. However, I don't think that coaching community is paid attention to by the national football coaching community. Do the BBall recruits have the same criteria? Facilities issues? I just really don't know but I don't think they do. A gym is a gym is a gym. The foam dome is not a bad facility compared to some of the ones Ive seen on other campuses.

I think Rick George is slowly changing the perception, inside the coaching community, that CU is a good place. Kicking off the facility construction has probably helped. I still think there are a lot of guys out there with big names that looked at what Hawkins and Embree left them to work with and thought, um no, I can't fix that. There is someplace easier I can go and turn it around.

So, Bzdelic's insistence on new BB facilities was unfounded?

 

[MiamiBuffs]

So, Bzdelic's insistence on new BB facilities was unfounded?

Like I said, I frankly do not know. When I went to CU Harrington was the coach and we were god awful. I went to CU for football. Thats what attracted me. I didn't even know they had a basketball program. :lol: I didn't start paying attention until Ricardo Patton started winning and Chauncey Billups came to town.

Probably the best basketball facility Id ever been in in my life was Michigan States.

As other posters pointed out it takes far fewer players to turn around a basketball program. A football program is obviously going to have a bigger footprint for stadium, office, locker room, and practice sites than a basketball program will. Plus there is the cross over that the women's program can use the same facilities as the men and volleyball can also probably share the same spaces.

 

[Buffalo Brad]

Stupid question but it does get a response. Sacky and I are on the same page. The hole was huge and this was a from scratch job. Did I expect different results in a few games this year, yes I did and think we should have at least 1 if not 2 more wins. Do I see progress, yes. It is obvious across the board watching the games. MM is a good coach and is making progress but there are, as with any rebuilding project, adjustments that need to be made. We need to see staff adjustments after this season and I certainly hope we do. If we do not, then I will have more questions and concerns.

With the lack of attention to the program over the last decade, the recovery process is a long slog. We are seeing a base being built and it is taking shape. A major issue we have is trying to make progress from scratch when you are in a conference and division that is one of the two best in the Country. To expect to see overnight success and the ability to draw a top 30 class is just ridiculous. Do we need to recruit better, absolutely. The star ratings may not be better but the level of athlete coming to CU at least appears to be more consistent with an FBS program. While youth cannot be a constant excuse, it is a valid one for now. That evaporates over time starting with next year. Progress needs to be demonstrated on the field next year to keep the progression moving forward.

Bottom line, progress is being made from the hole that was CU Football. Is it as fast as the die hard fan who remembers the glory days wants, no. But that is the problem as well. We are so far from the glory days that this is a false base to evaluate progress. Happy, no. Off the bandwagon, no. Believer in where we are headed, yes. Questions about the future, sure. Let's see what happens with the staff and what changes are made moving forward. Time will tell but it is a longer evaluation period than 2 years with a decent HC, which is where we are today.

 

[Bufffan68]

Stupid question but it does get a response. Sacky and I are on the same page. The hole was huge and this was a from scratch job. Did I expect different results in a few games this year, yes I did and think we should have at least 1 if not 2 more wins. Do I see progress, yes. It is obvious across the board watching the games. MM is a good coach and is making progress but there are, as with any rebuilding project, adjustments that need to be made. We need to see staff adjustments after this season and I certainly hope we do. If we do not, then I will have more questions and concerns.

With the lack of attention to the program over the last decade, the recovery process is a long slog. We are seeing a base being built and it is taking shape. A major issue we have is trying to make progress from scratch when you are in a conference and division that is one of the two best in the Country. To expect to see overnight success and the ability to draw a top 30 class is just ridiculous. Do we need to recruit better, absolutely. The star ratings may not be better but the level of athlete coming to CU at least appears to be more consistent with an FBS program. While youth cannot be a constant excuse, it is a valid one for now. That evaporates over time starting with next year. Progress needs to be demonstrated on the field next year to keep the progression moving forward.

Bottom line, progress is being made from the hole that was CU Football. Is it as fast as the die hard fan who remembers the glory days wants, no. But that is the problem as well. We are so far from the glory days that this is a false base to evaluate progress. Happy, no. Off the bandwagon, no. Believer in where we are headed, yes. Questions about the future, sure. Let's see what happens with the staff and what changes are made moving forward. Time will tell but it is a longer evaluation period than 2 years with a decent HC, which is where we are today.

Great post! The only thing I would add is that we are in a tough conference, and the toughest division, and the other schools are progressing more quickly than we are...probably because they actually had a base of talent to begin with. Mac will need all 5 years...we should be a bowl team by then or he needs to go.

 

[Shldr2Shldr]

Great post! The only thing I would add is that we are in a tough conference, and the toughest division, and the other schools are progressing more quickly than we are...probably because they actually had a base of talent to begin with. Mac will need all 5 years...we should be a bowl team by then or he needs to go.

In 5 years we need to have started a bowl streak and be competitive in the Pac-12 standings.

 

[89BUFF89]

No bowl game until year 5? Sorry but we need to be bowling NEXT SEASON. We need to go 4-0 in non-conference. The mistakes the 'kids' are making this year being unable to finish games need to be cleaned-up. The defense needs to improve quite a bit so we actually can hold leads.

 

[somebody]

No bowl game until year 5? Sorry but we need to be bowling NEXT SEASON. We need to go 4-0 in non-conference. The mistakes the 'kids' are making this year being unable to finish games need to be cleaned-up. The defense needs to improve quite a bit so we actually can hold leads.

Pretty hard to do with 9 conference games.

 

[BuffUp]

still on, but damn this losing crap really eats away at you? I guess? I am actually expecting loses at this point. One day we will get to celebrate? Might not be able to rush the field if the opportunity ever rises, I'll be to damn old to get over the wall.

 

[Bufffan68]

No bowl game until year 5? Sorry but we need to be bowling NEXT SEASON. We need to go 4-0 in non-conference. The mistakes the 'kids' are making this year being unable to finish games need to be cleaned-up. The defense needs to improve quite a bit so we actually can hold leads.

I get yours and Shoulder's point, and I don't disagree. I am just setting the absolute baseline expectation. I suspect we'll be bowling in a year or 2.

 

[Quattro]

Pretty hard to do with 9 conference games.

Maybe you should go ahead and look at next years schedule

 

[Dark Bohner]

still on, but damn this losing crap really eats away at you? I guess? I am actually expecting loses at this point. One day we will get to celebrate? Might not be able to rush the field if the opportunity ever rises, I'll be to damn old to get over the wall.

I'm honestly at the point now where I feel like we (CU fans) can't have nice things, and a bowl game is some pie in the sky pipe dream.

 

[BuffUp]

If we are all believers in Karma? what in the hell did CU football do to the Karma gods to piss them off so much? I have gone in and confessed my sins. I have looked deep inside to see what I might have done or might be doing to justify all this. How can 70,000 or more CU football fans deserve all this?
pedi state, smu, other schools that have done some serious "crimes" that don't warrant what we are living.

 

[CUFan]

I'm honestly at the point now where I feel like we (CU fans) can't have nice things, and a bowl game is some pie in the sky pipe dream.

We definitely must have sold our soul at some point.

You touch on a good point though. It's possible the best we can hope for at this point is simply competitive (consistent 7 win seasons). Maybe have a chance at a PAC South or PAC 12 title once every 10 years or so. I've pretty much adjusted my ceiling expectations down to something like this. We may be the Iowa State/Indiana/Kentucky of the PAC. I sure hope not, but I think there is a slim chance we will ever enjoy the kind of success we had in the early '90s.

 

[KingPants]

Pretty hard to do with 9 conference games.

Maybe you should go ahead and look at next years schedule

Or just help with the info instead.

We play Hawaii on the road next year, get the extra game. But we do have to win 7 to get to a bowl.

 

[MtnBuff]

Maybe you should go ahead and look at next years schedule

CU gets to play 13 games next year due to playing a road game at Hawaii.

Negative about this is that to be bowl eligible we have to win 7 games instead of the normal 6 so we have to for practical purposes win all 4 OOC and win 3 in conference.

I think we will be much better next year but we are coming from so far behind that this may still be to big a hill to climb.

 

[Bufffan68]

CU gets to play 13 games next year due to playing a road game at Hawaii.

Negative about this is that to be bowl eligible we have to win 7 games instead of the normal 6 so we have to for practical purposes win all 4 OOC and win 3 in conference.

I think we will be much better next year but we are coming from so far behind that this may still be to big a hill to climb.

I think having CSU as the third game will help us too.