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Recruiting talent complaint.

SINKRATZ said:
Not sure I understand your question (this class?), if you're asking what my W/L expectation is for this season I think 3 wins, maybe 4 if our OL stays healthy and Wood plays as well as we all hope he will.

If you're asking about this recruiting class specifically, I would say we're recruiting about where you would expect a 1 win BCS team to recruit, which isn't going to help us improve from the Pac 12 cellar unless Mac turns out to be a brilliant game planner and motivator.


If you're suggesting that several years worth of recruiting classes like this one would be good enough for us to get to 6-7 wins, then I strongly disagree.
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I agree with the win expectation. I actually see a meaningful strategy in the type of guys Mac is recruiting right now. It does not lead to more wins right away but it leads to a stronger and potentially contending program in 3-4 years. I see it as taking the pain now and stocking up on guys who may be 2 stars now but have realistic chances of being All-Conference performers with some development and maturity. Strategically it is the only way we can get beyond mediocre in the next 4-5 years in my opinion.
 
Wyo Buff said:
I agree with the win expectation. I actually see a meaningful strategy in the type of guys Mac is recruiting right now. It does not lead to more wins right away but it leads to a stronger and potentially contending program in 3-4 years. I see it as taking the pain now and stocking up on guys who may be 2 stars now but have realistic chances of being All-Conference performers with some development and maturity. Strategically it is the only way we can get beyond mediocre in the next 4-5 years in my opinion.
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Makes sense what he is doing, hope it works. Always some risk in every strategy.

CU has had some good players every year since we have been terrible but also ended up playing a lot of guys who didn't belong on the field for a BCS level team. What it looks like M2 may be doing is trying to build a solid foundation. Instead of taking the risk to get a few very good players be more solid and try to develop a full team of decent guys who aren't necessarily world beaters but also aren't overmatched every game.

We always like to go to Tad for a model of success but BB is completely different than football. In basketball a star and a couple of better than average guys can carry a roster of below standard players, best example is to look at the Chauncey teams. Football in contrast you can have a number of star types and your weaknesses will drag you down. Remember that a couple years ago we had a team with two first round picks and and a couple of other draft choices and stunk.

Not saying it's going to work, every plan has risk but I can see M2 deciding to work on bringing in guys who he can develop into solid players, cut the attrition so he isn't forced to play the guys who don't develop or aren't ready, and have a team that is ready to support the higher end players that he then can start to focus on as we begin to look more competent and win some games.
 
Liver said:
schools out-recruit their records ALL THE TIME when they bring in a new staff that is considered a good one. this hc had some nice pub heading into this gig. he appears to be well-regarded. we should be recruiting better. i believe the issue is that he didn't bring in any PROVEN big-conference recruiting assistants. he brought his guys with him and this ain't the wac.

i really, really like that he has a plan and a system and that he brought in his guys to implement on it. that said, he chose not to focus on recruiting in the bigs (by not bringing any known recruiters) and that is hurting us, imho.

the only way to get it turned for this next class is to seriously improve on the field. right away. it is too early to panic and way too early to consider anything the staff has done to be a failure. but, the class thus far is not anywhere near what it needs to be for us to win in big boy football.
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I don't know why I keep letting myself get pulled back into this argument, but this right here is the main source of my frustration. If I was 100% sure that we couldn't land better talent, I wouldn't say a word. Unfortunately, I don't think recruiting was emphasized when this staff was put together.

Just to address this up front, I didn't expect a staff of mercenaries who would land a kid at all costs but sacrifice the on field coaching or culture that HCMM is trying to build. What I did expect was that 2.5m budget to be used to land one or two assistants who were proven recruiters in the Pac12 footprint. Walters was a nice add, but he spent last year on the east coast. Instead, we have two secondary coaches, Neinas and Adams. It looks a lot like Mac just wanted to get a nice raise for his SJSU buddies (and no, I don't really believe that). So taking that into consideration, I have a hard time saying that this staff was just dealt a tough hand and can't do any better. I really believe that had we hired even one experienced Pac12 recruiter (Duff had a list of candidates that could've fit the budget), we would be seeing better results. Not top-25 results, but I think we'd be serious players for a couple of kids we have no shot at now that could upgrade this class.
 
mattrob said:
I don't know why I keep letting myself get pulled back into this argument, but this right here is the main source of my frustration. If I was 100% sure that we couldn't land better talent, I wouldn't say a word. Unfortunately, I don't think recruiting was emphasized when this staff was put together.

Just to address this up front, I didn't expect a staff of mercenaries who would land a kid at all costs but sacrifice the on field coaching or culture that HCMM is trying to build. What I did expect was that 2.5m budget to be used to land one or two assistants who were proven recruiters in the Pac12 footprint. Walters was a nice add, but he spent last year on the east coast. Instead, we have two secondary coaches, Neinas and Adams. It looks a lot like Mac just wanted to get a nice raise for his SJSU buddies (and no, I don't really believe that). So taking that into consideration, I have a hard time saying that this staff was just dealt a tough hand and can't do any better. I really believe that had we hired even one experienced Pac12 recruiter (Duff had a list of candidates that could've fit the budget), we would be seeing better results. Not top-25 results, but I think we'd be serious players for a couple of kids we have no shot at now that could upgrade this class.
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Legitimate view. I just think you are wrong. Even with lights-out recruiters, there was no way we were going to outrecruit anyone except maybe WSU and Utah in the 12 PAC. Therefore, you have a choice, build from the ground up with guys who you can get to the next level or settle for 3 stars or risky academic/charactger guys who might get you 2-3 more wins right away. Long-term, Mac's strategy will be better for CU. MtnBuff put is much more eloquently than I.
 
SINKRATZ said:
Stop with the "hard workers" crap - do you think only the under the radar kids with minimal offers are hard workers? Are kids getting multiple BCS offers not hard workers? Hard workers won't cut it in this conference, you need talented players who are ALSO hard workers.

Look, I know we've been historically bad, but the only way for us to get better is either to start recruiting better than at least some of our peers in the conference, or hope that our new coach is just smarter and better than other coaches in the league and can out-coach them with inferior talent. The former definitely isn't happening right now, so we must be hoping for the latter.
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No...we're just hoping against hope that you stop being a one-trick pony with your comments about recruiting. You haven't added a thing in months with your craptastic negativity.

Go pave some roads in Winnemuca!
 
I expected nothing otherwise. Until improvement is shown from 1-11, you don't get yourself the high 3's and 4's of the world. All it takes is improving this year to 3-4 wins + competitiveness in games and recruiting changes.
 
Wyo Buff said:
Legitimate view. I just think you are wrong. Even with lights-out recruiters, there was no way we were going to outrecruit anyone except maybe WSU and Utah in the 12 PAC. Therefore, you have a choice, build from the ground up with guys who you can get to the next level or settle for 3 stars or risky academic/charactger guys who might get you 2-3 more wins right away. Long-term, Mac's strategy will be better for CU. MtnBuff put is much more eloquently than I.
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I don't have any illusions that we would've had a recruiting class that ranked even in the middle of the conference, regardless of who we hired. I just find it hard to believe we couldn't replace the on-field coaching of one of the quartet of Clark, Adams, LaRussa and Neinas while simultaneously finding a well-connected West Coast recruiter, especially given the assistant pool Mac fought for. And if that hire just happened to help land even one playmaker, it would be a substantial upgrade given the lack of speed and explosiveness right now.

Regardless of the state of the program, I don't think my expectations were/are too high on this front. In the end, I think we'd agree that there needs to be a substantial talent upgrade to get the program anywhere near the point we want to see it. It's definitely too early to pass judgment one way or the other, but I don't understand how anyone can see the early returns and be convinced that this staff will ultimately be able to recruit at the level they're going to need to.
 
I definitely get the argument that HCMM should have brought in some BCS guys on the staff. I actually was complaining about that early on as well. I have come to appreciate the approach he took to filling out his staff. I think he did sacrifice something in terms of potential for quick wins on the recruiting trail for stability and speed to implementing his desired schemes.

If he is a good leader, he will also get the best out of his staff and he needs to be willing to let someone go if they are not able to get the best out of their positions they are coaching and/or pull their weight in recruiting.

Regarding our current recruiting results-personally they are about what I expected-not better not worse. However I am hopeful that some on-field improvement early in the season allows HCMM to upgrade the 2nd half of this class a bit-especially with at least 2 more sought after kids.
 
Buffenuf said:
No...we're just hoping against hope that you stop being a one-trick pony with your comments about recruiting. You haven't added a thing in months with your craptastic negativity.

Go pave some roads in Winnemuca!
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Says the guy with a line of red bars under his name. :rolling_eyes:

If you think everything is rosy and that recruiting is going well, then I suppose I envy your naïveté. I'm a CU alum, Buff fan, and donor so I hope this all works out over the next few years. I think there's a lot to like about coach Mac, but I don't think it's out of line to question some aspects of the program from time to time.

Oh and another thing, go f**k yourself.
 
SINKRATZ said:
So a single game that they almost (but didn't) win means that recruiting in the 90s is a recipe for success?
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I wouldn't say a recipe for success. For all we know this was the Superbowl game on their schedule and they played way above their normal threshold. But what I would say is that it shows a coach who can scheme and make adjustments to keep a lower tier team in the game with a chance to win. If he was able to do that against a 12 win Stanford team, think of what he can do with our "peers" like Utah, ASU, UA, OSU WSU. We might be overlooking what a competent coaching staff can accomplish when they understand in game adjustments, or how to prepare for upcoming opponents, or erase simple high school errors.
 
Pathetic, really. Please rewind to that fateful Thanksgiving weekend when several of us talked about the huge mistake of not canning Hawkins, and allowing the death spiral to accelerate. We said it then.....we are ****ed for many years. Embree pushed us even deeper into the hole. At best, we are 3-4 years away from getting back to where many of us think we should be. So get the **** over it and put your support behind the new staff. There really is no other option, bitch.
 
nocoolnamejim said:
It's an unfortunate fact that momentum is a bit hard to turn around sometimes in college football. I still remember when the Buffs were spanking Nebraska and a top-3 team back in 2002, but a lot of the recruits that are looking at colleges now were just young kids at that time and their memories may not stretch back that far. It's been a tough stretch for the Buffs for a number of years and it takes time to turn the ship back around.

The plus side is that positive momentum can build on itself as well. Grab up a few classes that are better than their ranking and have a couple of better than expected seasons, then that can allow you to start shooting higher and higher the following years. You've got a beautiful city, strong academics, and an excellent conference. A couple of good football seasons that give signs that the program is headed in the right direction and you'll be right back in it for some of the blue chip types out there.
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that is actually why it is called momentum.
 
I just hope HCMM can sign 21 players this class. Doubt we can get anyone to really consider us, we just are not very good.
 
Duff Man said:
I hope we never sign another 4* player. Those guys never work hard.
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:lol:

In fairness, I do think there's reason to question a lot of the higher-rated types the program has been able to sign in the decade since the scandal. We do seem to have better luck with the less heralded types who have high upside IF THEY DEVELOP.

I wish there was more of a splash being made in recruiting, but I look at hoops as an example of how to build a program the right way. Form a foundation with the Higgins, Dufault, Knutson & Tomlinson types. Mix in getting lucky with a Burks. That gets you back to respectability with some momentum so you can attract guys like Dinwiddie, XJ, Scott, etc.

It's a 3-4 year process.
 
Liver said:
and another thing...

crowder, mallory, fairbanks, the original Coach Mac, skippy, barnett, hawkins, and embree...

what do they ALL have in common?

each brought in at least one top 25 class. and, up until hawk and embree, all brought in MULTIPLE top 25 classes, including several top 10 classes.
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Stop with the hyperbole, recruiting wasnt even ranked until the 90's. AND Embree did not bring in a top 25 class he brought in the #36 class in the country and that rank was inflated because he signed 27 - normalize that back to 24 (even by only dropping the worst recruits) and it lands at 50+.
 
Buffnik said:
:lol:

In fairness, I do think there's reason to question a lot of the higher-rated types the program has been able to sign in the decade since the scandal. We do seem to have better luck with the less heralded types who have high upside IF THEY DEVELOP.

I wish there was more of a splash being made in recruiting, but I look at hoops as an example of how to build a program the right way. Form a foundation with the Higgins, Dufault, Knutson & Tomlinson types. Mix in getting lucky with a Burks. That gets you back to respectability with some momentum so you can attract guys like Dinwiddie, XJ, Scott, etc.

It's a 3-4 year process.
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Dinwiddie was actually an under-the-radar guy, go back and look at his recruiting thread he blew up late (a common Boyle theme), we can only hope some of these kids blow up the way Spencer, Alec, and Dre, did.
 
absinthe said:
They played CSU a lot tougher than we did.
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That's wonderful, but we fired our coach and CSU is dogs**t. Hawk beat Oklahoma once too. I'm not saying an inferior team can't rise up now and again with excellent coaching, but to expect a coach, no matter how good he is, to consistently beat more talented teams playing in a BCS conference is foolish.
 
The blowing up later excuse is pretty weak imo. We heard that a ton last year, our team went 1-11, coach fired, and we still managed to fend off the Idaho's of the world for most of them. Recruiting just isn't done late in the senior season anymore, kids commit early and schools fill up for the most part. The ones taking visits in January and deciding on signing day are not generally your Chidobe Awuzie types, more the Darrell Scotts of the world.
 
White_Rabbit said:
The blowing up later excuse is pretty weak imo. We heard that a ton last year, our team went 1-11, coach fired, and we still managed to fend off the Idaho's of the world for most of them. Recruiting just isn't done late in the senior season anymore, kids commit early and schools fill up for the most part. The ones taking visits in January and deciding on signing day are not generally your Chidobe Awuzie types, more the Darrell Scotts of the world.
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Dinwiddie really did blow up late look it up he was something like 6'0" when Boyle was in on him.
 
Duff Man said:
It's all the same in Mexico.

I just hope we can hold on to this staff in future seasons. Toby might get a lot of Big Sky offers.
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Please.






































His dad will get him a job at the [strike]Texas AD[/strike] Big 12? 9? 8+2? offices.
 
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