Recruiting the right kind of dogs

[OsideBuff]

Look at the schools that recruited next years players....none of them had any big time offers....did anyone watch the highlight films of Schwartz>? looks like he was playing against youth teams.....
They look okay...but the proof is in who is recruiting you...and few of these were high profile recruits. Call me skeptical.

 

[Buffnik]

Look at the schools that recruited next years players....none of them had any big time offers....did anyone watch the highlight films of Schwartz>? looks like he was playing against youth teams.....
They look okay...but the proof is in who is recruiting you...and few of these were high profile recruits. Call me skeptical.

Huh?

Schwartz was offered by Butler, Memphis and UNLV.
Battey was offered by Miami and Purdue, among a host of others.
Bey was offered by Utah, ASU, UNLV, Wazzu, SDSU and others.

Are you expecting CU to be beating Kentucky for recruits or something? What we are doing is winning recruiting battles against programs that have put more guys in the NBA, had more tourney success, and are at or above our level in program prestige. This is a Top 40 class, maybe a Top 25 class (2 sites have us there). What kind of expectations do people have for recruiting, because criticizing this group based on offers (or rating) seems to be coming from some alternate reality of what expectations should be and is absolutely ****ing ridiculous.

 

[Buffnik]

P.S. If you want to see highlights of Schwartz, watch the vid from the 2016 Pangos AA Camp:

 

[Buffs Basketball Fan]

Expectations on blogs and boards will always be high and sometimes unreasonable.
Everyone wants to see Mens Basketball succeed but they have different approaches on how to achieve that goal.
Next year team is pretty set in stone so getting the necessary K-9s may take some time.
In the meantime, they just need to find a way to win games and make the fans happy.

 

[OsideBuff]

Lol...Schwartz had ONE tournament team offer..none for the Pac 12 (Butler)....Bey had ZERO tournament team offers....and Battey had TWO (Purdue, Miami)....and the coaches at Butler and Purdue have shown that they can mold/transform 3 stars into good players in their system...Tad....not so much. I was looking at the dumpster fire classes of Tad in 2013 and 2015..Out of six players..one is/has contributed....King....4 transferred...and one is a bench warmer. Tad has whiffed at the program changing recruits lately....I hope I am eating crow....but a team that STARTED two four star recruits....and most starters were fifth year seniors....**** the bed at the beginning of Pac 12 play..... The recruiting class is at or near the bottom of the Pac 12 South....UofA, USC, UCLA, ASU (got a stud PG out of LA that UCLA wanted and Wooten) all out recruited the Buffs...and at least Utah had a recruit that UCLA wanted...and Krystowiak is a superior coach (has owned Tad)...plus he outrcruited AZ for Poetl....

Not optimistic....

 

[Shldr2Shldr]

Lol...Schwartz had ONE tournament team offer..none for the Pac 12 (Butler)....Bey had ZERO tournament team offers....and Battey had TWO (Purdue, Miami)....and the coaches at Butler and Purdue have shown that they can mold/transform 3 stars into good players in their system...Tad....not so much. I was looking at the dumpster fire classes of Tad in 2013 and 2015..Out of six players..one is/has contributed....King....4 transferred...and one is a bench warmer. Tad has whiffed at the program changing recruits lately....I hope I am eating crow....but a team that STARTED two four star recruits....and most starters were fifth year seniors....**** the bed at the beginning of Pac 12 play..... The recruiting class is at or near the bottom of the Pac 12 South....UofA, USC, UCLA, ASU (got a stud PG out of LA that UCLA wanted and Wooten) all out recruited the Buffs...and at least Utah had a recruit that UCLA wanted...and Krystowiak is a superior coach (has owned Tad)...plus he outrcruited AZ for Poetl....

Not optimistic....

Wait. We beat Utah for Bey, but Coach K is out recruiting Tad? What? Let us also pretend that UNLV, SDSU, and Utah are not typically in the Tourney.

Also who gives a damn about the Pac-12 south in basketball. Division doesn't mean anything. Oregon is recruiting lights out, and Altman has them in the Final 4. Arizona is an elite program. UCLA is an elite program. We are not going to be out recruiting them. We should be competing with programs like UNLV, Utah, SDSU, USC, etc and we are. And we are winning some of those battles.

 

[RiverBuff]

P.S. If you want to see highlights of Schwartz, watch the vid from the 2016 Pangos AA Camp:

And he's left-handed One of the announcers for a NCAA game yesterday -- SC?-- said he liked left-handed shooters because they had such a beautiful motion.

Anyway, D'Shawn does look like he has a nice touch from different places on the floor.

 

[CitizenKane]

And he's left-handed One of the announcers for a NCAA game yesterday -- SC?-- said he liked left-handed shooters because they had such a beautiful motion.

Anyway, D'Shawn does look like he has a nice touch from different places on the floor.

Yes left handed and in the highlight tape he shot some of his short jumpers with the right hand.

 

[Buffnik]

Lol...Schwartz had ONE tournament team offer..none for the Pac 12 (Butler)....Bey had ZERO tournament team offers....and Battey had TWO (Purdue, Miami)....and the coaches at Butler and Purdue have shown that they can mold/transform 3 stars into good players in their system...Tad....not so much. I was looking at the dumpster fire classes of Tad in 2013 and 2015..Out of six players..one is/has contributed....King....4 transferred...and one is a bench warmer. Tad has whiffed at the program changing recruits lately....I hope I am eating crow....but a team that STARTED two four star recruits....and most starters were fifth year seniors....**** the bed at the beginning of Pac 12 play..... The recruiting class is at or near the bottom of the Pac 12 South....UofA, USC, UCLA, ASU (got a stud PG out of LA that UCLA wanted and Wooten) all out recruited the Buffs...and at least Utah had a recruit that UCLA wanted...and Krystowiak is a superior coach (has owned Tad)...plus he outrcruited AZ for Poetl....

Not optimistic....

You wouldn't be optimistic if we signed Duke's class. Because you don't trust Tad's recruiting, player development, schemes or in-game coaching.

It would be easier if you only posted "This will fail because Tad sucks at everything and needs to be fired" every time you wanted to make a comment in a basketball thread.

It's a good class for 2017. UCLA, Arizona, Oregon outrecruited us. USC and ASU probably did, but it's close and depends on how we finish.

On the recent history:
The classes in between the J40 class and this class weren't where we need to be. Though I think Siewert and Brown will be good, productive players from that 2016 class and the Namon transfer within that class was a great get of a 4* talent (who knows with Walton, but always a good risk to take if you can find a skilled 7 footer)... and I do think that the Dom/Miller class is underrated since they're both useful rotational guys and have been for several years. The most disappointing to me was the Fletch/J-Hop/Dustin/King class, where I think we went off the rails with getting enamored with athleticism over attitude. Second most disappointing was the J40 class that didn't get the backup lead guard we needed desperately, which turned into predictable disaster when Spencer got hurt. And, of course, the Tommy/Guz class was a lost year where we missed on all our top targets and didn't have a viable backup plan. So I totally acknowledge issues in recruiting that were patched fairly well with the transfer market and the production we got from White and also even from Fortune. But I don't know why that recent history has anything to do with how we'd evaluate the current class and cause anyone to downgrade it. We should be excited about the group that's coming in.

 

[OsideBuff]

Wait. We beat Utah for Bey, but Coach K is out recruiting Tad? What? Let us also pretend that UNLV, SDSU, and Utah are not typically in the Tourney.

Also who gives a damn about the Pac-12 south in basketball. Division doesn't mean anything. Oregon is recruiting lights out, and Altman has them in the Final 4. Arizona is an elite program. UCLA is an elite program. We are not going to be out recruiting them. We should be competing with programs like UNLV, Utah, SDSU, USC, etc and we are. And we are winning some of those battles.

Coach K outrecruited UCLA for a recruit..........ASU won recruiting battles with UCLA...Oregon State beat out AZ for a recruit...Come on....

Keep the sunshine pumping.....Tad has won the same amount of tournament games as....hmmmm.....Ricardo Patton......

 

[OsideBuff]

You wouldn't be optimistic if we signed Duke's class. Because you don't trust Tad's recruiting, player development, schemes or in-game coaching.

It would be easier if you only posted "This will fail because Tad sucks at everything and needs to be fired" every time you wanted to make a comment in a basketball thread.

It's a good class for 2017. UCLA, Arizona, Oregon outrecruited us. USC and ASU probably did, but it's close and depends on how we finish.

On the recent history:
The classes in between the J40 class and this class weren't where we need to be. Though I think Siewert and Brown will be good, productive players from that 2016 class and the Namon transfer within that class was a great get of a 4* talent (who knows with Walton, but always a good risk to take if you can find a skilled 7 footer)... and I do think that the Dom/Miller class is underrated since they're both useful rotational guys and have been for several years. The most disappointing to me was the Fletch/J-Hop/Dustin/King class, where I think we went off the rails with getting enamored with athleticism over attitude. Second most disappointing was the J40 class that didn't get the backup lead guard we needed desperately, which turned into predictable disaster when Spencer got hurt. And, of course, the Tommy/Guz class was a lost year where we missed on all our top targets and didn't have a viable backup plan. So I totally acknowledge issues in recruiting that were patched fairly well with the transfer market and the production we got from White and also even from Fortune. But I don't know why that recent history has anything to do with how we'd evaluate the current class and cause anyone to downgrade it. We should be excited about the group that's coming in.

Fair enough.....This is going to be a true test of Tad's coaching....Can he do what McIntyre did and make decent players good to great? Hope so....

 

[Buffalo Brad]

Coach K outrecruited UCLA for a recruit..........ASU won recruiting battles with UCLA...Oregon State beat out AZ for a recruit...Come on....

Keep the sunshine pumping.....Tad has won the same amount of tournament games as....hmmmm.....Ricardo Patton......

You really want to compare Tad to Ricardo? That tells me enough about your knowledge of bball and specifically the history of CU bball. The program may not be where we all want it to go, lord knows I want a sweet 16 run or better. But when was the last time that CU had the kind of post season run that we have had under Tad? Go ahead and look to see how long it has been where we have made as many post season tournaments as Tad has taken us to. Get out with the Ricardo comparisons, that is just garbage and you know it.

 

[Jeremy]

Look at the schools that recruited next years players....none of them had any big time offers....did anyone watch the highlight films of Schwartz>? looks like he was playing against youth teams.....
They look okay...but the proof is in who is recruiting you...and few of these were high profile recruits. Call me skeptical.

It takes a special kind of person to bash teenagers on message boards before they've even played a game for CU. You must be a pleasure to hang out with.

 

[OsideBuff]

You really want to compare Tad to Ricardo? That tells me enough about your knowledge of bball and specifically the history of CU bball. The program may not be where we all want it to go, lord knows I want a sweet 16 run or better. But when was the last time that CU had the kind of post season run that we have had under Tad? Go ahead and look to see how long it has been where we have made as many post season tournaments as Tad has taken us to. Get out with the Ricardo comparisons, that is just garbage and you know it.

When Chauncey Billups beat a very good Indiana team....and were competitive against North Carolina in the second round.....Ricardo won 53% of his games at CU...went to the post season 5 times....Tad 61% of his games....so...yeah...I will give you that....but look at the trend....over the past three years...one NCAA tourney appearance....fallen to 55% winning..So, Tad has been pretty much the equal of Ricardo the past three years....and looking at even the Pac 12 South...what team will we have an advantage? ASU is on the upswing.....finally has a full roster of players....USC, UCLA, UofA and Utah are demonstrably better....so...unless the Pac 12 puts 6 or 7 teams in the tournament...I don't see an invitation in the near future.....

 

[OsideBuff]

It takes a special kind of person to bash teenagers on message boards before they've even played a game for CU. You must be a pleasure to hang out with.

Bwahahahaha....they are good players...are they elite? Not based on who recruited them...only time will tell....hope I am eating crow and they are elite. How is that a bash? Seriously? Tad is paid as an ELITE coach....you know...top 40 in the country.....and NO...he is NOT recruiting or coaching at an elite level...sorry...those are the facts. He has won exactly 55% of his games the past three years....that is pretty mediocre....by ANY standards.

 

[Shldr2Shldr]

Bwahahahaha....they are good players...are they elite? Not based on who recruited them...only time will tell....hope I am eating crow and they are elite. How is that a bash? Seriously? Tad is paid as an ELITE coach....you know...top 40 in the country.....and NO...he is NOT recruiting or coaching at an elite level...sorry...those are the facts. He has won exactly 55% of his games the past three years....that is pretty mediocre....by ANY standards.

Actually, it is statistically better than mediocre.

 

[Buffnik]

@SDB - you do know there's no north/south in hoops, right? In fact, we only play UA/ASU/UCLA/USC once each this year and everyone else in the Pac-12 twice. You keep bringing up the south and there isn't such a thing.

 

[Jeremy]

Why are you isolating the last 3 years? to fit your narrative? I was a student in the Ricardo Patton era where we were lucky to be in the NIT. Not taking anything away from Patton, but Chauncey Billups is an NBA hall of famer. If you think that what Patton and Boyle have done at CU is comparable, then you are just a hater and your opinions don't matter.

 

[buffaholic]

Evan Battey (PF/C): 4* on ESPN & Scout, Top 150 on Rivals and Scout, Top 200 on 247
D'Shawn Schwartz (SF): 4* and Top 100 on every site
Tyler Bey (SF/PF): 4* on Rivals, Scout & 247, Top 100 on 247, Top 150 on Rivals & Scout
Top 25 ranked class on Rivals and 247. #40 on ESPN. Outside Top 25 on Scout (only 1-25 loading for me)

The problem I have with that are that all the recent classes had Top 100 this and that. They were all sold on here as being great classes (except for perhaps 1), and yet they all kind of ending up sucking. You've already acknowledged that the recruiting has been poor since TA left.

I've entered the last 5 seasons thinking that XYZ was the answer to what we lacked to get to that next level. Are these guys measurable above the numbers we anticipated when we signed (Dom, Miller, Peters, Siewart, Hopkins, Fletcher, Thomas)?

Did these guys need more development than the guys we are getting? Serious question btw, I don't follow the recruiting in MBB much.

 

[OsideBuff]

@SDB - you do know there's no north/south in hoops, right? In fact, we only play UA/ASU/UCLA/USC once each this year and everyone else in the Pac-12 twice. You keep bringing up the south and there isn't such a thing.[/QU

Irrelavant.....really. Those five teams are on the upswing....and more than likely be better than CU next year....meaning....they will have a better opportunity to make the tournament than the Buffs...add in Oregon State improving...Oregon is a force...putting our Buffs at the bottom half of the Pac 12....more specifically....in a place where they will not make the big dance...

So...I guess since Ricardo won 53% of his games...he also was better than mediocre...lol....2% difference is exactly.....2 games or so in three years...YIPPEE KAY YAY....program is on the upswing!!!!!

 

[99'Buff]

For those who remember Dom Collier's recruiting (and point to Dom as being as stiff now), he was offered by the following schools...

Arizona
UCLA
Oregon
Gonzaga

Just a reminder that winning a recruiting battle against the big boys doesn't guarantee you've landed a superstar.

 

[OsideBuff]

Why are you isolating the last 3 years? to fit your narrative? I was a student in the Ricardo Patton era where we were lucky to be in the NIT. Not taking anything away from Patton, but Chauncey Billups is an NBA hall of famer. If you think that what Patton and Boyle have done at CU is comparable, then you are just a hater and your opinions don't matter.

Because it is what have you done for me lately world.....Tad gets extended EVERY year....okay...that assumes you are making progress...and with Tad....it APPEARS as if it is headed in the wrong direction...What is a good sampling size? ..how long do you wait for another tournament invitation? Two years? How long to you stay at near 50% winning before you look at changes? Why shouldn't Tad be able to compete with the bigs for recruits? Great facilities. Great school. Maybe because recruits watch games.....see the dysfunction on offense....see the sporadic play.....see the transfers....See the downward trend...just maybe???

 

[BuffLuke80]

Where was CU basketball before Tad took over?

 

[Buffnik]

The problem I have with that are that all the recent classes had Top 100 this and that. They were all sold on here as being great classes (except for perhaps 1), and yet they all kind of ending up sucking. You've already acknowledged that the recruiting has been poor since TA left.

I've entered the last 5 seasons thinking that XYZ was the answer to what we lacked to get to that next level. Are these guys measurable above the numbers we anticipated when we signed (Dom, Miller, Peters, Siewart, Hopkins, Fletcher, Thomas)?

Did these guys need more development than the guys we are getting? Serious question btw, I don't follow the recruiting in MBB much.

The other classes didn't match up to these 3 on paper except for the 2013 class.

J-Hop was a high 3*/ borderline 4* who had other major offers.
Fletch low 4* to mid 4* ranked by a couple sites in the Top 100 and had other major offers.
Dustin was a mid 3* with widely varied ratings between cracking the Top 150 or being unrated, with an Oklahoma offer.
King was a 2* or unrated with pretty much no other offers.

That was a class that looked better on paper than it was in reality.

I think this class is more predictable. Schwartz is an average athlete with a very controlled and developed offensive game. Bey is a 5* defensive player with a developing offensive game. Battey is an absolute wildcard who could be Draymond Green or Kris Jenkins... or could be another Damiene Cain (although, unlike Caine, he loves basketball and seems like a leader). I see differentiation from 2013 because these guys have bankable, complementary skills on a basketball court versus being athletic body types you hope will develop the attitude and skills to become excellent basketball players on this level. It seems very different to me. Of course, it's all speculation until we see them lace em up.

 

[OsideBuff]

For those who remember Dom Collier's recruiting (and point to Dom as being as stiff now), he was offered by the following schools...

Arizona
UCLA
Oregon
Gonzaga

Just a reminder that winning a recruiting battle against the big boys doesn't guarantee you've landed a superstar.

Indeed...and that is my point. That is one four star recruit...many fail.....but after a while...if you are constantly recruiting the under the radar....and there is no development...teams get average to bad quickly. If Tad had shown he can make 3 stars into studs.....then I wouldn't worry....not the case. As it relates to how long to wait... Herb Sendek won 21, 21 and 18 games his last three years at ASU....and was fired.

 

[Buffnik]

Indeed...and that is my point. That is one four star recruit...many fail.....but after a while...if you are constantly recruiting the under the radar....and there is no development...teams get average to bad quickly. If Tad had shown he can make 3 stars into studs.....then I wouldn't worry....not the case. As it relates to how long to wait... Herb Sendek won 21, 21 and 18 games his last three years at ASU....and was fired.

Which is exactly why I'm confused on why you don't like this class. If we can load with Top 100/150 players every year, isn't that what you're saying you want? We know that some will suck and some will never be more than role players, and it also gives a better and realistic shot of having guys who will be the next Alec or Spencer or J40 (guys who were rated in that area).

 

[OsideBuff]

Where was CU basketball before Tad took over?

Ricardo won 53% of his games....and one tournament win. Jeff was rebuilding.....slowly...in a much better big 12 conference. Got the new facilties. I think he should have stayed at CU.....Pac 12 was a dumpster fire during his tenure at CU...not good...Big 12 much better...His players were probably Tad's best team....

 

[OsideBuff]

Which is exactly why I'm confused on why you don't like this class. If we can load with Top 100/150 players every year, isn't that what you're saying you want? We know that some will suck and some will never be more than role players, and it also gives a better and realistic shot of having guys who will be the next Alec or Spencer or J40 (guys who were rated in that area).

I don't look at ratings...I look at who is recruiting them. The offer list is GOOD for a coach that can take a player and make them better.....not sure that is Tad's forte.

 

[BlackNGold]

I guess I am not buying into the analogy. The elite teams recruit great talent and mold that talent into basketball players, they also develop leadership. You can develop leadership (the military does it all the time) but coach Boyle seems to have trouble doing that. It is funny (or ironic) that some are saying that we need to look for a different type of talent and then talk about the incoming talent and how highly it is rated. Ratings mean little if you don't develop the talent. Boyle never seems to develop talent nor leadership. I don't want to knock Boyle because he has done a decent job at CU but he is pretty much a coach that will get you to the middle of the conference, 18 to 22 wins a year and an NCAA bid every other year. He is not going higher than that. If you are not happy with that you need to get someone else.

To get to the top level in college basketball you have to recruit talent and then mold it. Dean Smith always talked about the Carolina Way - Play Hard, Play Smart and Play Together. Smith's books focus a lot on developing leadership as does John Wooden's which is why they are used in business sometimes. I think that is the area that Tad Boyle needs help - his recruiting is okay but development is lacking.

 

[Buffnik]

I don't look at ratings...I look at who is recruiting them. The offer list is GOOD for a coach that can take a player and make them better.....not sure that is Tad's forte.

Your player development focus is confusing. By what measure are players not improving over the course of their time at CU? Why do you think it's better at other places?