Scandals in US (college) sports

[4BienemyTDs]

Tom Osborne can't die quickly enough.

It was pretty amazing seeing and hearing a lot of what Mtn said in Lincoln when I lived there. The Peter Bros beat the **** out of dozens of people downtown and just got in their Jeep and drove home. Tom was the most preachy guy and yet I am convinced that once he was struggling to win National Championships, he made a deal with the Devil to win at whatever costs. Fully convinced that he came up with justifications for everything.

 

[GRM]

It was pretty amazing seeing and hearing a lot of what Mtn said in Lincoln when I lived there. The Peter Bros beat the **** out of dozens of people downtown and just got in their Jeep and drove home. Tom was the most preachy guy and yet I am convinced that once he was struggling to win National Championships, he made a deal with the Devil to win at whatever costs. Fully convinced that he came up with justifications for everything.

You hit on the Peter brothers (Christian Peter was a rapist) but you missed Lawrence Phillips... Talk about a criminal draft bust, taken 6th in the 1st round, he played in 27 NFL games, but ended up serving a 31-year sentence on assault convictions when he was charged in 2015 for murdering his cellmate. While awaiting trial, he was found dead in solitary confinement, which was ruled a suicide. His 20 year crime wave started on or before 1994 and ended in 2015... The Wiki article explains how Osborne made the deal with the devil--Phillips threw his ex-girlfriend down 3 flights of stairs and bashed her head into a mailbox, 6 game suspension and still started in the Fiesta Bowl. Even Scott Frost is part of his Wiki!

Lawrence Phillips - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[BuffWarHogFrog]

Lance Armstrong.

 

[patebuff]

Agree with the college stuff but come on the steroids in baseball was baseball’s most exciting time. That sport makes watching paint dry exciting. More steroids in baseball please!

Baseball was in bad shape before that steroid era. A lot of people think it saved baseball as a sport

 

[J.R. Ewing]

Baseball was in bad shape before that steroid era. A lot of people think it saved baseball as a sport

A lot of that was self inflicted. That prolonged strike was profoundly harmful.

 

[Not Sure]

A lot of that was self inflicted. That prolonged strike was profoundly harmful.

I don’t think that MLB will ever fully recover from the damage done by that strike. So many people simply found other sports to follow. I was a partial season ticket holder for the Rockies before the strike. I’ve never paid for Rockies tickets since (been to a few games where the tickets were comped, though).

 

[MtnBuff]

Lance Armstrong.

Lance's crime was being an American who won too much. Everybody and I mean everybody in pro cycling at that time was doping. Lance may have been better at it.

In baseball not everyone was doping but it was commonplace.

In the long run both sports suffered some harm from it but also some benefit. I don't like that athletes put their health at risk but mostly they chose to do so.

I am much more bothered when innocent people outside the sports are damaged by those in the sports

 

[BuffWarHogFrog]

Lance's crime was being an American who won too much. Everybody and I mean everybody in pro cycling at that time was doping. Lance may have been better at it.

In baseball not everyone was doping but it was commonplace.

In the long run both sports suffered some harm from it but also some benefit. I don't like that athletes put their health at risk but mostly they chose to do so.

I am much more bothered when innocent people outside the sports are damaged by those in the sports

I thought he was an arrogant douche nozzle.

 

[MtnBuff]

I thought he was an arrogant douche nozzle.

An amazing number of the truly elite athletes are arrogant douche nozzles. Seems to be a part of the personality that allows them to consistently come out on top against other highly talented athletes competing for the same titles.

The various Hall of Fames are full of them, some of them work very hard to cultivate a public image that shows them as something different then when you find out what they were/are like in person they are arrogant, self-serving jerks.

Lance seemed to be one who didn't put a lot of effort into hiding his character issues. May have been part of why the cycling establishment was willing to go along with trying to knock him down even though it meant admitting that the entire sport was a corrupt chemistry experiment.

 

[Jens1893]

Lance's crime was being an American who won too much. Everybody and I mean everybody in pro cycling at that time was doping. Lance may have been better at it.

In baseball not everyone was doping but it was commonplace.

In the long run both sports suffered some harm from it but also some benefit. I don't like that athletes put their health at risk but mostly they chose to do so.

I am much more bothered when innocent people outside the sports are damaged by those in the sports

I hope spinning it like this helps you sleep better at night.

 

[MtnBuff]

I hope spinning it like this helps you sleep better at night.

If he hadn't won multiple Tour de France's would they have cared? I doubt it. He dominated "their" race, and was arrogant about it in the process.

https://www.businessinsider.com/lance-armstrong-doping-tour-de-france-2015-1

And those were just the ones caught or admitted to it. The sport was a dopers paradise.

Lance cheated, no question, and he lied about it and denied it, no question. It is very easy though to make a case that he was just the best among a sport full of cheaters.

 

[MiamiBuffs]

In 1999, Arizona State was rocked by a point shaving scandal.

Boston College and a dozen others. Point shaving is as old as the Mafia.

 

[BuffWarHogFrog]

An amazing number of the truly elite athletes are arrogant douche nozzles. Seems to be a part of the personality that allows them to consistently come out on top against other highly talented athletes competing for the same titles.

The various Hall of Fames are full of them, some of them work very hard to cultivate a public image that shows them as something different then when you find out what they were/are like in person they are arrogant, self-serving jerks.

Lance seemed to be one who didn't put a lot of effort into hiding his character issues. May have been part of why the cycling establishment was willing to go along with trying to knock him down even though it meant admitting that the entire sport was a corrupt chemistry experiment.

I think getting caught and being so unrepentant, and becoming an “attack dog” while throwing his teammates under the bus was the issue.

 

[MtnBuff]

I think getting caught and being so unrepentant, and becoming an “attack dog” while throwing his teammates under the bus was the issue.

A lot went into it, not the least of which was of his own making. He made himself easy to hate.

I do believe though that had he been French of even from one of the Euro cycling powers and not been so arrogant they would have found a "different solution."

 

[Jens1893]

A lot went into it, not the least of which was of his own making. He made himself easy to hate.

I do believe though that had he been French of even from one of the Euro cycling powers and not been so arrogant they would have found a "different solution."

Lance's crime was being an American who won too much. Everybody and I mean everybody in pro cycling at that time was doping. Lance may have been better at it.

In baseball not everyone was doping but it was commonplace.

In the long run both sports suffered some harm from it but also some benefit. I don't like that athletes put their health at risk but mostly they chose to do so.

I am much more bothered when innocent people outside the sports are damaged by those in the sports

I'd advise you to be a little more consistent with your arguments in the future.

 

[hokiehead]

Armstrong eventually admitted to doing. Defending him in any way is pointless.

 

[Jens1893]

Armstrong eventually admitted to doing. Defending him in any way is pointless.

But people hated him cos he's American

 

[MtnBuff]

But people hated him cos he's American

That played into it yes.

In no way saying he was innocent or should have got a pass but there were those who believed that the tour belonged to Europeans.

And you can't deny that he was far from the only cheater.

From 1999-2005 the title is vacant because they couldn't find a top finisher who was clean.

 

[Jens1893]

Poor America

 

[BuffLuke80]

Hmm, maybe the Len Bias situation. Thing is, that might have been a personal decision on his part to take less of his meds. From the program I watched about that though, nobody seemed to stand in his way about it.

 

[Highlander]

But people hated him cos he's American

I'm not going to disagree with Mtn about the state of cycling at that time and the French just absolutely seething at his dominance for years.

Yes, he was dirty. He was a smug asshole about it, too.

Everyone else was dirty, too. He was just slightly better at masking it - for a long while.

 

[Buffnik]

I think you guys are being unfair and probably overly nationalistic. The thing with Armstrong is that he was an asshole, it was an open secret that he was dirty, and he wasn't considered one of the elites of the sport until he came back from cancer recovery with a ridiculously improved strength-to-weight ratio.

Conversely, I haven't seen vitriol from French fans about the greatest American cyclist, Greg LeMond. Maybe because Greg had respect for the sport and was a worthy champion?

 

[hokiehead]

That played into it yes.

In no way saying he was innocent or should have got a pass but there were those who believed that the tour belonged to Europeans.

And you can't deny that he was far from the only cheater.

From 1999-2005 the title is vacant because they couldn't find a top finisher who was clean.

Given the disgrace of both Armstrong and Landis, I'm thinking Americans should stay out of the discussion until another Greg LeMond comes along.

 

[Highlander]

I think you guys are being unfair and probably overly nationalistic. The thing with Armstrong is that he was an asshole, it was an open secret that he was dirty, and he wasn't considered one of the elites of the sport until he came back from cancer recovery with a ridiculously improved strength-to-weight ratio.

Conversely, I haven't seen vitriol from French fans about the greatest American cyclist, Greg LeMond. Maybe because Greg had respect for the sport and was a worthy champion?

Or maybe just because he was charismatic versus Lance being a dick?

 

[Buffnik]

Or maybe just because he was charismatic versus Lance being a dick?

He's also given back to the sport as an innovator and committee member.

But, yeah, the personable charisma helps a lot. Similar to how Americans embrace certain international tennis, hockey, basketball or baseball players and golfers while we can't stand others.

 

[BuffWarHogFrog]

Or maybe just because he was charismatic versus Lance being a dick?

And how much of a dick, you ask?

 

[Highlander]

And how much of a dick, you ask?

View attachment 88929

So they all doped at that time, but Armstrong won too much and was a dick about it?

Look - I give about 2, no, maybe 3 ****s about international road cycling, but those that think Armstrong was a major outlier are kidding themselves.

 

[Alfred91]

So they all doped at that time, but Armstrong won too much and was a dick about it?

Look - I give about 2, no, maybe 3 ****s about international road cycling, but those that think Armstrong was a major outlier are kidding themselves.

I had cancer during LA’s ascendancy. I would get up early every day in July to watch him race. Having dealt with all the ****, the uncertainty, and frankly, the terror of having stage 4, I was convinced that LA would never do anything as dangerous as dope at the levels he was accused of. I would argue with anyone, and I bought all of the lies. I attributed Lemond’s part in the feud to jealousy, and a lot of the European journalists’ criticism as anger at an American dominating their sport.

So when it finally became inarguably clear that he had indeed doped, I was really upset. I still have no respect for the guy. I mean, good for him for beating cancer, but I feel like the betrayal cancels out any inspiration that he might have given anyone.

Having said all that, grand tour cycling is basically a bull**** sport. They either cannot get a handle on doping or really don’t care. You can’t trust any great performance, because more often than not, the athlete is cheating. I really have lost pretty much any interest in it, which 20 years ago, I would have thought impossible.

 

[MtnBuff]

I had cancer during LA’s ascendancy. I would get up early every day in July to watch him race. Having dealt with all the ****, the uncertainty, and frankly, the terror of having stage 4, I was convinced that LA would never do anything as dangerous as dope at the levels he was accused of. I would argue with anyone, and I bought all of the lies. I attributed Lemond’s part in the feud to jealousy, and a lot of the European journalists’ criticism as anger at an American dominating their sport.

So when it finally became inarguably clear that he had indeed doped, I was really upset. I still have no respect for the guy. I mean, good for him for beating cancer, but I feel like the betrayal cancels out any inspiration that he might have given anyone.

Having said all that, grand tour cycling is basically a bull**** sport. They either cannot get a handle on doping or really don’t care. You can’t trust any great performance, because more often than not, the athlete is cheating. I really have lost pretty much any interest in it, which 20 years ago, I would have thought impossible.

Don't think for a minute that I am defending Armstrong, just pointing out that he was far from unique in his doping to win.

I also don't have any respect for him. He lied, he threw teammates under the bus, he responded with denial and anger when it was obvious that he was caught.

Also very much agree with you that it is indicative of what he was willing to sacrifice in order to win. He survived cancer when a lot of others don't. He then risked it all by doping in large amounts to give him the best chance to win, regardless of the danger he put himself in.

The evidence is very persuasive that the sport has long been as much a contest of pharmacetical advances as of physical ability. The question often is not who might not be doping but who is best at covering it up and still using it to win.

All this said how can most college football teams have rooms full of 300lb + athletes (even some D2 schools) It isn't all diet and weightlifting. Doping seems to be a part of almost every sport. You wonder if an athlete who is determined not to use performance enhancing substances even has a chance to compete.

 

[Costa Rica Buff]

I had cancer during LA’s ascendancy. I would get up early every day in July to watch him race. Having dealt with all the ****, the uncertainty, and frankly, the terror of having stage 4, I was convinced that LA would never do anything as dangerous as dope at the levels he was accused of. I would argue with anyone, and I bought all of the lies. I attributed Lemond’s part in the feud to jealousy, and a lot of the European journalists’ criticism as anger at an American dominating their sport.

So when it finally became inarguably clear that he had indeed doped, I was really upset. I still have no respect for the guy. I mean, good for him for beating cancer, but I feel like the betrayal cancels out any inspiration that he might have given anyone.

Having said all that, grand tour cycling is basically a bull**** sport. They either cannot get a handle on doping or really don’t care. You can’t trust any great performance, because more often than not, the athlete is cheating. I really have lost pretty much any interest in it, which 20 years ago, I would have thought impossible.

While his doping was abhorrent, when measuring him as a person one has to factor in that his Livestrong foundation raised over 500 million dollars to fight cancer and very likely helped saved lives, perhaps many. In this case, I'm OK with the ends justifying the means.