Shaking Things Up....

[Chilly]

Chilly, Thank you for your unwavering support of Dan Hawkins. You and I have spoken via PM about this before - Hawkins has done a lot for the school and I believe most fans are very appreciative of that...BUT what you keep writing is frighteningly more repetitive than anything that we've been writing as our Buffaloes continue to be embarrassed. What we are writing about is a culmination of 14-27. By the end of year 4, that number realistically could be 16-33. This is the University of Colorado - while we may not be USC or UF or Ohio State, we're also NOT Baylor or Syracuse or Miami (OH) - WE HAVE A PROUD HISTORY, WE HAVE A NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP - it's totally ok and good that our fans should expect more than 14-27.

Your argument about Hawkins running a clean program is garbage. There are plenty of D1 College Coaches who can both run a clean program AND WIN GAMES. Do you need examples?

Let me ask you this: we're 1-3 heading into #2 Texas. By all accounts, we won't win more than 4 games. Do you agree? If so (which you must unless you really haven't watched a game this year), then what is wrong with getting our younger players involved in the game? Why not put in WRs other than Espy & Scotty during garbage time to get experienced?

Same goes with the qb and RBs.

Why not Chilly?

This is where we depart, and I have obviously done a poor job of communicating my position. I am not saying a you should except losing so you can run a clean program. I am saying I want BOTH. I am saying that despite Hawkins W/L record he HAS tried to run the program the right way. Unfortunately it has not been able to produce a winning record at CU, and he deserves the criticism he is getting for that. But criticism and disrespect are two different things.

I understand people believe some of the younger players should see some playing time. Fair point of view. Implying that they are not because they don't play XBox with Cody is NOT a fair point of view. Think that Hawkins keeps them on the bench because he wants to lose is NOT a fair point of view. It is venting that has gone wrong.

Thinking that somehow Cody being in the record books for doing his best on the football field, is a sad day for Colorado football, is a rather disturbing sign of our loss of perspective.

Again. I want a winning program AND a clean program and I want a coach who will do both. You and I have talked about why I would like to give Hawkins 5 years, and I think there are valid points as to why he may not get that 5 years.

I understand fans question coaching decisions. It is what we do. That is not what my issues are with.

Wanting to know why some players are not getting more playing time makes for great football conversations and debates. But if we are going to make assertions that player A is better than player B, or that he needs to be lined up in different formations or run different routes to be effective, It is fair for people to ask what is leading to those observations, so that a respectful conversation can continue.

 

[Chilly]

I dont think he is losing on purpose, I just think he thought this was gonna be like Boise and it isnt. He is actually gonna have to do some coaching this time around and, adjustments wise, I havent seen it. At Boise, I have watched them a ton mind you, his players were better in almost every area than anyone in their conference by far. Saying that, he really didnt need to adjust much, just let the talent take over. Maybe he is a work in progress, I dont know, thats up to Hawk. If he is, he is moving at a snail's pace and that **** dont fly at CU. Everybody involved in this program wants to win and not at all costs but they wanna win.

No argument.

This is another reason I like Hawkins. Recruiting some of the talent he did at BSU without going the Fresno State (KSU) route, I feel, speaks alot about what Hawkins is about. Boise is in the middle of nowhere, it is a very family oriented town and not very young adult friendly, and yet he was able to get good kids with talent to go play for him.

 

[PurifydatA$$]

No argument.

This is another reason I like Hawkins. Recruiting some of the talent he did at BSU without going the Fresno State (KSU) route, I feel, speaks alot about what Hawkins is about. Boise is in the middle of nowhere, it is a very family oriented town and not very young adult friendly, and yet he was able to get good kids with talent to go play for him.

Will he continue to be able to get good talent to come to CU if we are the doormat of the Big XII/all of D1 football?

Not trying to be sarcastic, real question

 

[Chilly]

Will he continue to be able to get good talent to come to CU if we are the doormat of the Big XII/all of D1 football?

Not trying to be sarcastic, real question

NO. But he is going to have a hard time this year regardless. Don't think negative recruiting by KSU won't effect our class. If he does get 1 more year everyone will be saying he is a lame duck coach. This maybe the strongest argument for departing in year 4. Given the current lack of support he has, there maybe nothing he can do going forward.

 

[BuffLuke80]

I have no doubt he's a good man but this isn't about winning a humanitarian award. College football is a business whether folks wanna admit it or not. Millions of dollars tied into it and losing programs dont get a piece of that. Schools that have CU's history will only put up with losing for so long, then heads will roll. Im not affliliated with CU at all but I know damn well this is being talked about and, unless it changes, they will find a way to replace Hawk.

 

[Chilly]

I have no doubt he's a good man but this isn't about winning a humanitarian award. College football is a business whether folks wanna admit it or not. Millions of dollars tied into it and losing programs dont get a piece of that. Schools that have CU's history will only put up with losing for so long, then heads will roll. Im not affliliated with CU at all but I know damn well this is being talked about and, unless it changes, they will find a way to replace Hawk.

Again no argument and I get this is the business of college football. All the more reason to cheer for a guy like Hawkins to succeed. Don't mistake cheering for him to be successful, and accepting our W/L record as the same thing. The two are mutual exclusive for me.

 

[BuffNut99]

Rep to Chilly for the passion and valid points. May we all be happy with the program one day.

 

[BuffLuke80]

Id like to see Hawk succeed but he really needs to pull a rabbit out of his hat or this is only gonna end badly. The ball is in his court, for the time being, so he better do something with it. This has a feel that something might already be going on, I just have that feeling, could be wrong.

 

[Buffalo Brad]

This is where we depart, and I have obviously done a poor job of communicating my position. I am not saying a you should except losing so you can run a clean program. I am saying I want BOTH. I am saying that despite Hawkins W/L record he HAS tried to run the program the right way. Unfortunately it has not been able to produce a winning record at CU, and he deserves the criticism he is getting for that. But criticism and disrespect are two different things.

I understand people believe some of the younger players should see some playing time. Fair point of view. Implying that they are not because they don't play XBox with Cody is NOT a fair point of view. Think that Hawkins keeps them on the bench because he wants to lose is NOT a fair point of view. It is venting that has gone wrong.

Thinking that somehow Cody being in the record books for doing his best on the football field, is a sad day for Colorado football, is a rather disturbing sign of our loss of perspective.

Again. I want a winning program AND a clean program and I want a coach who will do both. You and I have talked about why I would like to give Hawkins 5 years, and I think there are valid points as to why he may not get that 5 years.

I understand fans question coaching decisions. It is what we do. That is not what my issues are with.

Wanting to know why some players are not getting more playing time makes for great football conversations and debates. But if we are going to make assertions that player A is better than player B, or that he needs to be lined up in different formations or run different routes to be effective, It is fair for people to ask what is leading to those observations, so that a respectful conversation can continue.

Hi Chilly,

I agree with much of what you have written above. Dan has done a good job with the image of CU. He does want to win. I believe that. He believes he is doing everything he can to get this team on track. We both want a winner with a clean image.

With that being said, I do not want to see Hawk get a 5th year. I know Mac go the the confidence of Marolt when he went 1-10 in 84 but you need to go back and look at that season. I believe they lost 4 or 5 games by less than 3 points and were in many of the games until the end. You also need to factor in the brain injury to Ed. Very different circumstances when compared to this team. This team is not close to winning. You cannot see signs of turning the corner. While a small number of players from last season (some talent arguably), they have taken steps backwards. There is not anyone who will say we have taken positive steps forward with this version of the Buffs compared to last years team. I would say last years team was on the verge of turning around and felt very strongly we would build on that this year. In fact, the exact opposite has happened. Light years between where we were in 84 and 09.

I like Hawk. I thought the hire was a homerun. I would have given almost anything to have seen him succeed. But that is just not happening. I hope he wins this weekend and we do not get embarrassed. Most folks on this board were big Hawk fans up until this year. Winning would help us all and make a lot of this bickering go away. I am afraid it will get much worse this year before it will get better.

Take the above for what it is worth, not much. Only one opinion. I want a winner. I want a clean program. I know others have done it and I want it at CU.

Go Buffs!

 

[Chilly]

Hi Chilly,

I agree with much of what you have written above. Dan has done a good job with the image of CU. He does want to win. I believe that. He believes he is doing everything he can to get this team on track. We both want a winner with a clean image.

With that being said, I do not want to see Hawk get a 5th year. I know Mac go the the confidence of Marolt when he went 1-10 in 84 but you need to go back and look at that season. I believe they lost 4 or 5 games by less than 3 points and were in many of the games until the end. You also need to factor in the brain injury to Ed. Very different circumstances when compared to this team. This team is not close to winning. You cannot see signs of turning the corner. While a small number of players from last season (some talent arguably), they have taken steps backwards. There is not anyone who will say we have taken positive steps forward with this version of the Buffs compared to last years team. I would say last years team was on the verge of turning around and felt very strongly we would build on that this year. In fact, the exact opposite has happened. Light years between where we were in 84 and 09.

I like Hawk. I thought the hire was a homerun. I would have given almost anything to have seen him succeed. But that is just not happening. I hope he wins this weekend and we do not get embarrassed. Most folks on this board were big Hawk fans up until this year. Winning would help us all and make a lot of this bickering go away. I am afraid it will get much worse this year before it will get better.

Take the above for what it is worth, not much. Only one opinion. I want a winner. I want a clean program. I know others have done it and I want it at CU.

Go Buffs!

I understand why many think it is time to move on. I can't really say I blame them either. This years football team has not looked good at all. It has shown signs of improvement from week 1, but this team should be much further along than it is right.

My only argument for Hawkins is really more of an emotional one than a rational one. I think Hawkins is one of the good guys, and so I am biased toward giving him a chance to lose with his seniors. It really is as simple as that. Anyone who knows me will tell you my biggest fault and strength is my unbending loyalty towards those I think are attempting to do things with integrity. The world needs more people like Hawkins to be successful.

 

[BuffLuke80]

I understand why many think it is time to move on. I can't really say I blame them either. This years football team has not looked good at all. It has shown signs of improvement from week 1, but this team should be much further along than it is right.

My only argument for Hawkins is really more of an emotional one than a rational one. I think Hawkins is one of the good guys, and so I am biased toward giving him a chance to lose with his seniors. It really is as simple as that. Anyone who knows me will tell you my biggest fault and strength is my unbending loyalty towards those I think are attempting to do things with integrity. The world needs more people like Hawkins to be successful.

I agree with u chilly but this is about nothing more than Ws. This isnt about the world, this is about winning football games at CU. If he wants to save the world, he has the wrong job. Your heart is in the right place but this is about results. I guarantee you, if this guy was at a Texas school, he'd be gone already. CU has a great history, is this the guy we want to lead it? Thats the question.

 

[SJBuff]

DS averaged 1.3 carries last game and has not looked as explosive as Rodney Stewart EVER. DS sits on the bench because Speedy is a better back.

I have to disagree with you here. More specifically I think that the jury is still out.

DS had some very nice runs against Toledo including a big one that got called back because of a hold and if you re-watch that game I think you will see that he can be as explosive as Speedy.

Secondly, I don't think DS is getting much of a chance to get into a rhythm. In the UWV game it took putting the ball in Speedy's hands 6 times before he produced a significant positive gain. 5 times in 8 plays they played the ball to him and he dropped the pass, had no gain or lost yards. Still, the coaches had faith and fed him the ball more. Why can't they do that for DS?

In the UWV game DS was in for a total of 6 plays (3 in one series and then another 3 more than a quarter later). He got the ball 4 times total and broke even or gained only a couple yards. Kinda hard to get a rhythm when you carry two plays and then sit for 30 mins then carry two more.

I really think DS can do better (meaning as good or better than Speedy) if the coaching staff decided to stick with him and give him more reps in a row. Give the kid a chance to find his groove.

Speedy may end up being the better runner, I just don't think we have seen enough of DS to make that call.

 

[Buffalo Brad]

I understand why many think it is time to move on. I can't really say I blame them either. This years football team has not looked good at all. It has shown signs of improvement from week 1, but this team should be much further along than it is right.

My only argument for Hawkins is really more of an emotional one than a rational one. I think Hawkins is one of the good guys, and so I am biased toward giving him a chance to lose with his seniors. It really is as simple as that. Anyone who knows me will tell you my biggest fault and strength is my unbending loyalty towards those I think are attempting to do things with integrity. The world needs more people like Hawkins to be successful.

Nothing wrong with that. More people could use some of that loyalty in them. As I said, I agree on him being a good guy and I think his intentions are good. Nothing wrong with a little loyalty at all.

Take it easy.

 

[Junction]

Why is this BS? Records are what they are. Is it his fault this is the Offense he played in?

You know what a shame is have a convicted murder being in your records books. THAT is pure BS.

I will take Cody in my record books any day of the week if he did through hard work and while representing my University to the best of his ability.

Your post SUCKS

No Chilly, your post sucks. I respect your feelings about Hawkins, the program and doing things "the right way". Personally I don't think that means we have to accept piss poor on field results and I don't generally hear people calling for a Jackie Sherrill type to replace Hawk with a "damn the rules" attitude. But I generally respect where you are coming from.

But the reference above is WAY off base and out of bounds. There will be people suited up Saturday against Texas, under Hawk, with more legal issues on their record than Rae Carruth EVER had while at the University of Colorado. Defend Hawk all you want. But don't parrot the fusker line that CU was playing a murderer by playing Rae Carruth....

 

[Chilly]

I agree with u chilly but this is about nothing more than Ws. This isnt about the world, this is about winning football games at CU. If he wants to save the world, he has the wrong job. Your heart is in the right place but this is about results. I guarantee you, if this guy was at a Texas school, he'd be gone already. CU has a great history, is this the guy we want to lead it? Thats the question.

I disagree somewhat and here is why. The world is what we make of it, and football is part of my world, so I want to see someone like Hawkins succeed. I agree you only get so long to show you can get the job done, before you bring in the next guy to see if he can continue to do things the right way AND produce wins. As far as what Texas schools do, that is there business. I only care about what CU does.

If the question is do I want Hawkins leading our team. For me the answer is yes.

The real question is to me is CAN he lead our team? I don't have the answer to that. Many feel he can't. Don't say I blame them. But that doesn't mean we have to continually slam the guy day after day for giving his best effort does it? That really is the only problem I have right now. It's not with the opinion that he is not the right coach for CU. It is the constant attacks on him as a person. Dislike the coach all you want, but Hawkins as a man has alot going for him. We should all learn to separate two.

 

[somebody]

I think everyone agrees that the bottom line is that we expect a clean and winning program. My point about Cody and the record books, once again, is not that his name shouldn't be there. If Cody's the right guy to play the QB position, I want him to break records. But this program appears to have slid rather than progress, and the QB play is part of it. It's the coach's decision who and how to play, and he should absolutely be judged by the results. One other thing: I agree Hawk's one of the good guys, but he has not reacted well publicly to his deserved criticism.

 

[Chilly]

I have to disagree with you here. More specifically I think that the jury is still out.

DS had some very nice runs against Toledo including a big one that got called back because of a hold and if you re-watch that game I think you will see that he can be as explosive as Speedy.

Secondly, I don't think DS is getting much of a chance to get into a rhythm. In the UWV game it took putting the ball in Speedy's hands 6 times before he produced a significant positive gain. 5 times in 8 plays they played the ball to him and he dropped the pass, had no gain or lost yards. Still, the coaches had faith and fed him the ball more. Why can't they do that for DS?

In the UWV game DS was in for a total of 6 plays (3 in one series and then another 3 more than a quarter later). He got the ball 4 times total and broke even or gained only a couple yards. Kinda hard to get a rhythm when you carry two plays and then sit for 30 mins then carry two more.

I really think DS can do better (meaning as good or better than Speedy) if the coaching staff decided to stick with him and give him more reps in a row. Give the kid a chance to find his groove.

Speedy may end up being the better runner, I just don't think we have seen enough of DS to make that call.

Fair enough. I don't agree that Speedy had a slow start against WV though. If I recall his first 4 runs went for close to 20+ yards.

http://scores.espn.go.com/ncf/playbyplay?gameId=292740277

I don't disagree that we have not really seen enough of DS to determine what he is capable of. But I have seen enough of Speedy to know what he is capable of and I have no complaints about our RB position. If DS is going to see increased playing time he is going to have to show the coaches he can do it in practice, because game day is not when you get the opportunity to prove yourself. And to be clear, I am not slamming DS. He is a Buff and I would like nothing more than for him to prove to me that he is better than Speedy and should be starting. Given that Speedy is one heck of a back, if DS can outperform him, then all is well with our run game.

As far as the Toledo game, I agree he played a good game, but I disagree about explosiveness. On the play that got called back I saw him get run down from behind by a guy who did not have an angle on him, but just flat out ran fast then he did. I don't see Speedy getting caught from behind on that play.

 

[Chilly]

No Chilly, your post sucks. I respect your feelings about Hawkins, the program and doing things "the right way". Personally I don't think that means we have to accept piss poor on field results and I don't generally hear people calling for a Jackie Sherrill type to replace Hawk with a "damn the rules" attitude. But I generally respect where you are coming from.

But the reference above is WAY off base and out of bounds. There will be people suited up Saturday against Texas, under Hawk, with more legal issues on their record than Rae Carruth EVER had while at the University of Colorado. Defend Hawk all you want. But don't parrot the fusker line that CU was playing a murderer by playing Rae Carruth....

I am not calling out Rae Carruth. My point is that I find it over the top for people to be outraged that Cody is climbing the record books. What has Cody done as a buff that says he doesn't deserve to be there? Why is his place in the record books BS? I don't care how he got his passing yards, he did it while wearing a Buff uniform and representing this University with Class. I am PROUD that we have a guy like Cody in our record books.

I made the reference to make a point, and I think it is a valid point. Why are people upset that a fine young man such as Cody is in a position to breaks some CU passing records? What has he done that makes anyone believe he doesn't deserve that recognition? If I was going to get upset about having players in our records books, Cody would NOT be on of them.

 

[Chilly]

I think everyone agrees that the bottom line is that we expect a clean and winning program. My point about Cody and the record books, once again, is not that his name shouldn't be there. If Cody's the right guy to play the QB position, I want him to break records. But this program appears to have slid rather than progress, and the QB play is part of it. It's the coach's decision who and how to play, and he should absolutely be judged by the results. One other thing: I agree Hawk's one of the good guys, but he has not reacted well publicly to his deserved criticism.

So what if we agree with the decision to start Cody or not. The fact is he is starting, it is not something that is within our control. I hope Cody breaks every passing record at CU. Not because he is Cody, but because he is a Buff who plays with guts and the coaches have chosen to play him.

Wanting him to break records or not should not be tied to if we agree with him starting.

 

[Lt.Col.FrankSlade]

At the end of the day, Colorado is about to have its FOURTH straight losing season.

I don't really care who you are - that's just not going to be an acceptable level of success.

 

[Duff Man]

At the end of the day, Colorado is about to have its FOURTH straight losing season.

I don't really care who you are - that's just not going to be an acceptable level of success.

**** you. Our GPA is spectacular.

 

[drmike]

So what if we agree with the decision to start Cody or not. The fact is he is starting, it is not something that is within our control. I hope Cody breaks every passing record at CU. Not because he is Cody, but because he is a Buff who plays with guts and the coaches have chosen to play him.

Wanting him to break records or not should not be tied to if we agree with him starting.

I find it amazing that you can come to this conclusion, yet you hammer my post with this unrelated convicted felon crap that was never implied on my part. Are we now saying that we have to have Cody or a thug and there is no in between? That is retarded.

 

[Sexton Hardcastle]

You want to know what I love about college football?

The fact that anything can happen. I know most of you are ripping Hawkins for just about anything he says nowadays. But what he says is pretty true. It's the small things. Running proper routes, knowing where to be, not forcing the ball, knowing the snap count and holding your blocks. Look. I know a lot of this is on the coaching staff. I agree. But if the OL can make continued progress, it will open up the running game. We all know Speedy is starting to really show some flashes. If Cody can start to look like he did in 07 we can still be bowl bound.

...crazier things have happened. Go Buffs.

EDIT: I'm not trying to be condescending nor am I trying to talk down to anyone. I'm just trying to sort the BS like everyone else here at AllBuffs.

 

[Chilly]

I find it amazing that you can come to this conclusion, yet you hammer my post with this unrelated convicted felon crap that was never implied on my part. Are we now saying that we have to have Cody or a thug and there is no in between? That is retarded.

You find it amazing that I can come to the conclusion the Cody represents the University of Colorado proudly and gives his best effort on the field every game he plays and therefore he deserves to be in the record books just as much as anyone else who has every played football for the CU?

ummm. OK.

 

[SJBuff]

Fair enough. I don't agree that Speedy had a slow start against WV though. If I recall his first 4 runs went for close to 20+ yards.

http://scores.espn.go.com/ncf/playbyplay?gameId=292740277

I don't disagree that we have not really seen enough of DS to determine what he is capable of. But I have seen enough of Speedy to know what he is capable of and I have no complaints about our RB position. If DS is going to see increased playing time he is going to have to show the coaches he can do it in practice, because game day is not when you get the opportunity to prove yourself. And to be clear, I am not slamming DS. He is a Buff and I would like nothing more than for him to prove to me that he is better than Speedy and should be starting. Given that Speedy is one heck of a back, if DS can outperform him, then all is well with our run game.

As far as the Toledo game, I agree he played a good game, but I disagree about explosiveness. On the play that got called back I saw him get run down from behind by a guy who did not have an angle on him, but just flat out ran fast then he did. I don't see Speedy getting caught from behind on that play.

Check again, in the first series they put (or tried to put) the ball into Speedy's hands 5 times (3 passes & 2 runs) and he produced a total of 7 net yards. Not a fast start.

DS got it twice, produced 2 yards, watched an incomplete pass to someone else and then got sat down. Please don't tell me you think he got the same opportunity as Speedy.

I also hear what you are saying about DS needing to show it in practice. I agree he needs put out max effort. That being said, every player will tell you that practice is not like a game. Games are full speed full contact full intensity and practices rarely match up to that so I don't think you can really know what a player is capable of until you stick him in the game and give him a chance.

I thought DS did good enough at Toledo to warrent getting significant playing time in future games but it seems the staff's position is "produce on the first two carries our you're out" (unless your Speedy or Sulmner).

 

[Chilly]

Check again, in the first series they put (or tried to put) the ball into Speedy's hands 5 times (3 passes & 2 runs) and he produced a total of 7 net yards. Not a fast start.

DS got it twice, produced 2 yards, watched an incomplete pass to someone else and then got sat down. Please don't tell me you think he got the same opportunity as Speedy.

I also hear what you are saying about DS needing to show it in practice. I agree he needs put out max effort. That being said, every player will tell you that practice is not like a game. Games are full speed full contact full intensity and practices rarely match up to that so I don't think you can really know what a player is capable of until you stick him in the game and give him a chance.

I thought DS did good enough at Toledo to warrent getting significant playing time in future games but it seems the staff's position is "produce on the first two carries our you're out" (unless your Speedy or Sulmner).

He got the same opportunity in practice to show he should be given more opportunity in the game. If we don't go 3 and out after DS comes into the game, he problem continues to play out that series. I am not saying it is all DS fault the TEAM went 3 and out after he came in part way through the series. But the the fact is he did go 3 and out. that is just how it works sometimes. Coaches will work you into the game on a series or 2 and the success of that series determines you PT. Fair or not, Hawkins isn't the only coach who does this.

I don't know of a single coach I ever played for that was willing to put me in the game to see what I could do if I didn't show that I was better than the person ahead of me in practice. I may have gotten a few plays here and there and depending upon the game situation and how those plays went would determine if I got more.

I don't know what DS is doing in practice I am not there. But the idea that you put someone in the game to see what they can do, I disagree with. Bottom line, if you want to see the field earn it. You earn it by doing what the coaches want of you. No coach keeps a kid on the bench if he is doing what is asked of him in practice and shows he is better at doing it then the other players.

I can tell you I never had a coach in any of the sports I played all the way through HS tell, me well "We let's just put you in the game and see how it goes" Never! And I would find it hard to believe that anyone else here did either.

Based on this experience I can only conclude that what ever is happening in practice is telling the coaches that Speedy should be starting and should be getting the most carries.

 

[TheRoyale90]

I can tell you I never had a coach in any of the sports I played all the way through HS tell, me well "We let's just put you in the game and see how it goes" Never! And I would find it hard to believe that anyone else here did either.

I didn't want to get involved in this fight because everyone just assumes I'm an asshole and that I could never be objective about Hawkins and his system. However, I'd just like to ask you Chilly, didn't you ever play with anyone that doesn't go full speed in practice but lit it up on gameday? I'm not asking you for a moral evaluation of the value of practice and "earning it" just wondering if you can see that there are talented players out there that need game situations to shine. These are just off the top of my head but a few examples from various sports are: Randy Moss, Michael Strahan (sat out pre-seasons because he didn't feel like playing), Allen Iverson, David Wells (one look at him tells you what his work ethic is), Charles Barkley. I can accept that those guys are not role models for work ethic and sportsmanship but they got the job done. Is it conceivable in your opinion that we might have some players who are not practice warriors or fanatical about preparation but who if given the chance might be able to succeed on pure talent? Again, lets leave out moralistic evaluations of what we "think" should be a good player and just look at results. Cody and Scotty and Espy are overachievers. Great. We're not winning games. This is football, the only object is to score more points than your opponents. We're not doing that. Doing things the "right way" as you put it is supposed to comfort us when we're getting annihilated again and again?

 

[Chilly]

I didn't want to get involved in this fight because everyone just assumes I'm an asshole and that I could never be objective about Hawkins and his system. However, I'd just like to ask you Chilly, didn't you ever play with anyone that doesn't go full speed in practice but lit it up on gameday? I'm not asking you for a moral evaluation of the value of practice and "earning it" just wondering if you can see that there are talented players out there that need game situations to shine. These are just off the top of my head but a few examples from various sports are: Randy Moss, Michael Strahan (sat out pre-seasons because he didn't feel like playing), Allen Iverson, David Wells (one look at him tells you what his work ethic is), Charles Barkley. I can accept that those guys are not role models for work ethic and sportsmanship but they got the job done. Is it conceivable in your opinion that we might have some players who are not practice warriors or fanatical about preparation but who if given the chance might be able to succeed on pure talent? Again, lets leave out moralistic evaluations of what we "think" should be a good player and just look at results. Cody and Scotty and Espy are overachievers. Great. We're not winning games. This is football, the only object is to score more points than your opponents. We're not doing that. Doing things the "right way" as you put it is supposed to comfort us when we're getting annihilated again and again?

first of all lets admit. There is NO comfort for they way we are playing. None. Second. I don't consider this a fight. I consider it a healthy debate.

Now yes there were kids who did not practice at their fulls speed and yes they lit it up on game day. I can also tell you even in practice, their half speed was better than the kid riding the bench behind them. I can also tell you if there were two kids competing for starting time with equal capability, then the kid the kid who went all out in practice usually got the start.

I also would like to add that when I say someone has to earn it practice, that doesn't just mean by practicing hard. I think people focus on that way to much. Practicing hard is just 1 part of earning your spot on the field. Knowing the plays, showing proper technique, showing a team chemistry with the other starters, all goes into earning your playing time. You don't just have to be good at 1 of these things. The coaches want to see the best combination of all of these things.

I will counter your examples with Brandon Marshall. Here is a guy who has all the talent in the world, but because he didn't take the time to get to know the play book and spend the extra effort it has cost him at the beginning of the season He finally appears to be applying himself and it is paying off in the game. But how well did Brandon Marshal's talent do him the first few weeks of the season?

And for the record. I enjoy these kinds of healthy debates where were are actually talking about football and debating different ideas on what will drive our success, over just the constant personal attacks.

 

[TheRoyale90]

first of all lets admit. There is NO comfort for they way we are playing. None. Second. I don't consider this a fight. I consider it a healthy debate.

Now yes there were kids who did not practice at their fulls speed and yes they lit it up on game day. I can also tell you even in practice, their half speed was better than the kid riding the bench behind them. I can also tell you if there were two kids competing for starting time with equal capability, then the kid the kid who went all out in practice usually got the start.

I also would like to add that when I say someone has to earn it practice, that doesn't just mean by practicing hard. I think people focus on that way to much. Practicing hard is just 1 part of earning your spot on the field. Knowing the plays, showing proper technique, showing a team chemistry with the other starters, all goes into earning your playing time. You don't just have to be good at 1 of these things. The coaches want to see the best combination of all of these things.

I will counter your examples with Brandon Marshall. Here is a guy who has all the talent in the world, but because he didn't take the time to get to know the play book and spend the extra effort it has cost him at the beginning of the season He finally appears to be applying himself and it is paying off in the game. But how well did Brandon Marshal's talent do him the first few weeks of the season?

And for the record. I enjoy these kinds of healthy debates where were are actually talking about football and debating different ideas on what will drive our success, over just the constant personal attacks.

Hell yeah. I have a reputation as a bomb thrower but I'd rather have pure football discussions. I think you make some solid points but let me counter-point you with the fact that Brandon Marshall won us the game on sunday. He's immature and T.O-like in so many ways but he's a beast. He produces whenever he's given the chance. On another tack I'd like to ask you: how do you explain the Tom Brady phenomenon? Clearly he never proved in practice that he was better than Drew Bledsoe, it took an injury to give him the starters job and he never gave it back. This happens all the time so what's the mechanic at play here? I don't think practice or preparation is the be all end all. I think talent trumps preparation though I can admit that talent plus preparation would be best.

 

[Chilly]

Hell yeah. I have a reputation as a bomb thrower but I'd rather have pure football discussions. I think you make some solid points but let me counter-point you with the fact that Brandon Marshall won us the game on sunday. He's immature and T.O-like in so many ways but he's a beast. He produces whenever he's given the chance. On another tack I'd like to ask you: how do you explain the Tom Brady phenomenon? Clearly he never proved in practice that he was better than Drew Bledsoe, it took an injury to give him the starters job and he never gave it back. This happens all the time so what's the mechanic at play here? I don't think practice or preparation is the be all end all. I think talent trumps preparation though I can admit that talent plus preparation would be best.

No arguement. But how many examples outside of Tom Brady can you think of that fit this mold? There may be a few others, but I personally am having a hard time coming up with any right at this moment.

There are always exceptions to the rules and maybe we have that diamond in the rough sitting on the bench. I really don't know. But the percentages are against you more than they are for you.