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- Thread starter sackman
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We were also 16th nationally for the season as a whole on kickoff returns average yardage.
I'm not a Neinas apologist. If you want to can him for being a crappy recruiter, I get it - and I wouldn't disagree, but the narrative that our special teams suck is just plain wrong.
I'm not a Neinas apologist. If you want to can him for being a crappy recruiter, I get it - and I wouldn't disagree, but the narrative that our special teams suck is just plain wrong.
You realize our STs have an advantage playing so many games at altitude, right? Average doesn't or shouldn't cut it.
fatbuff
Member
There are only 20 teams with a dedicated Special Teams Coordinator. You would expect better results than average.
Bufffan68
Club Member
You're probably right. I could see no changes this year. If we don't make progress next year, I could see heads rolling...not Mac's though.
Agree with our resident bunny
buffsyko
Club Member
Then he's as clueless as hawkins if this is what he believes. If he's recruiting to beat umass and Hawaii he's right on track.
aik
Well-Known Member
My biggest special teams concern is going forward in the kicking game. CU's leanest years also coincided with having our best kicker and punter since Mason Crosby and John Torp and now they are both gone from the program. We're going to take a step back in that area in 2015. There will be growing pains. And it will become clear how much that was boosting Neinas' resume.
So that helps us return kicks? Now I have heard everything!
No. But returning kicks has never been a big issue for us. We were good there some seasons under Hawkins. Neinas has done little other than inherit a couple solid kickers.
Saved for future reference.
Here is a cut and paste from the Pac 12 conference team statistics http://pac-12.com/content/football-statistics
This is a head to head comparison of CU vs all 9 conference opponents. What jumps out at you? For me it is the following:
1) CU scored 56 points off opponents turnovers, opponents scored 249 off of CU's. That's a 193 point differential. Just wow...
2) CU gives up too many yards against the run
3) We just about held our own offensively. Better in some categories worse but close in others
4) 3 yard advantage in KO returns, 4 yard disadvantage in punt returns
5) Our opponents had a 0.5 yard advantage in net punting and just under a 1 yard advantage in net Kickoffs
6) We missed 4 more field goals than our opponents (3 misses against Cal effectively cost us that game)
7) Our Red Zone score % and Red Zone TD% was identical to our opponents - we just had significantly few opportunities (11), which lines up almost exactly to our turnover deficit (-10 overall, -12 in INT's).
Personally, I think people freaked at the poor special teams at the start of last year, which improved as the season went on. It was repeated this year with terrible showings in the CSU and UMass games. People were so convinced our special teams sucked, they stopped bringing in new information to form an opinion. I know last year, we made personnel changes to improve ST's with more starters involved after the terrible showing the first few games. Did the same happen this year? I don't know. I do know that we played our conference opponents to roughly a stalemate on special teams. If we could say the same on defense (particularly defensive rushing) and turnover margin, we win more games.
Could ST's be better? Sure they could, but the numbers do not show that being our primary problem - not by a long shot.
And as Duff said, someone needs to point out that Neinas should coach well during the OOC conference games. Oh, and during fake punt attempts. HCMM said they had seen the Utah fake on film, but failed to ensure the kids got lined up right. That's coaching.
That Utah fake punt was a disaster. Absolute disaster. Right out of halftime, we stop them, and then that. Contain that fake, get the ball at the 40 yard line, and score. That pretty much ends the game right there barring a complete collapse somewhere else.
Special teams rarely win you games, but they can sure as Hell lose you games.
Special teams rarely win you games, but they can sure as Hell lose you games.
You're correct, except maybe one of the most important lines of the article at the end, referencing Neinas. It seems to be a common view on these boards that Neinas is a terrible coach and recruiter. I'm 100% just curious where that comes from? Lack of in-state recruiting success? Someone fill me in on why everyone around here is so down on Toby.
I agree the fake punt vs Utah was a disaster.
Question: did we change personnel after struggling with special teams vs CSU and UMass? We did last year after starting off so poorly on special teams, and played pretty well the rest of the season. I don't believe Neinas has full control of who is on special teams.
Here is the funny thing: I could give a rat's ass about Neinas, and I think it is generally proven he is not a stellar recruiter. I just tend to step up when people say things that I believe are patently untrue and the facts support it being untrue. With that note, I don't really care to debate it further. Hopefully, the facts have given some folks some things to think about beyond a knee jerk "CU's special teams suck" opinion.
I know people don't like the excuses, but a couple plays go the other way against Oregon St, Cal, UCLA and Utah, and you're talking about a 6-6, bowl eligible team with a 4-5 P12 record. That would be on par with our P12 "stats". Nobody likes "moral victories", but this may be the biggest, most daunting rebuilding project in the country, and I think people need to give this staff a little more leniency than some are currently giving.
I don't think anyone thinks Toby is a terrible coach. I think its more along the lines that he is a dedicated ST coach. If that is case, you need your Special Teams to be dynamic. I also think you are missing out on an opportunity to bring in an elite recruiter when you hamstring yourself this way.
JtsRcktVctry
Member
Good work...but I wonder where the Pac-12 got that turnover stat. If CU had 21 turnovers, and opponents scored 249 points off them, that's 11.9 points per possession. Does not compute.
I actually agree with you, but not when it comes to Neinas. It's been said a lot, but if you're going to be a dedicated special teams coach, you better have; A) outstanding special teams, and B) outstanding recruiting results. He has neither.
The stat that jumped out at me was the points off turnovers. That's a freakish differential. Just awful.
Well, I see a lot of people ripping our special teams' play, so that seems to be an indictment on his coaching abilities. I think our weakest ST area is kick coverage, in all honesty. However, that's more about the players and their discipline to stay in lanes, get off blocks and tackle than it is on the coaching strategy. As recruiting gets better, players develop and our STs start to be comprised of more than Freshman and Sophomores, the better the STs will get.
I think 21 is the turnover differential, not total turnovers. If it is total, you're correct though, it does not compute.
This is also a common view I've seen on these boards. Who do you think we (meaning the CU football program) are on a national landscape? You think HCMM looks at these 0,1,2 and 3 star recruits and thinks, "these are the missing links that will put us over the top against Oregon"?? Our goal isn't to get recruits "to beat umass and Hawaii", but this program hasn't been relevant for almost a decade. The 17 and 18 year olds that are being recruited were 6, 7 and 8 years old the last time CU WASN'T a national punchline for futility. This coaching staff has to start somewhere and the recruits they've been able to sign and receive verbals from are the best they can realistically get at this point. Quit acting like this program has the prestige and success of Alabama, but is recruiting like a mid-major.
Our ST's play got better this year it feels like, but it still wasn't great.
However, I don't think there needs to be "spin". Coach Mac will have Neinas on staff if he thinks he's getting the job done and that's all on Mac.
However, I don't think there needs to be "spin". Coach Mac will have Neinas on staff if he thinks he's getting the job done and that's all on Mac.
9 straight losing seasons has worn me out. I like MikMac. I think he is a very good coach. But it will practically take a miracle worker at this point. Any talk of wholesale changes are not a good idea. It very well may be that AC's do not want a CU job, maybe what MikMac has assembled is the best he can get. Having said that, there are a few changes I would be in favor of, but it isn't my head on the chopping block if it doesn't work out, it is MikMac's. If he wants to ride into battle with the current staff, so be it.
Precisely. Mac has full control over who is on his staff and his entire career is riding on his assistant coaches doing their jobs. If he doesn't think a coach is cutting it or there's better (realistic) option out there, he'll make a move.
AlferdJasper
Well-Known Member
Is the coach not responsible for player discipline and preparation?
Apparently not. Interesting viewpoint for sure.
Not all coaches do that. Still too early to tell with Mac. Hawkins couldn't fire incompetent coaches.
Yes, but at some point the players need to go out and make plays. The coaches can teach, show film, yell, make correct calls, etc. but they can't force the players to get off blocks, stay in their lanes or wrap up on a tackle. The only thing a coach can do to fix those issues is put another guy in who they think can do the job better. Like I stated previously, when we start getting better players in the program and have more upper class men playing STs, these issues should resolve themselves. What our lack of special team's success should show is just how bare the cupboards were when Mac took over.