The Embree Decision: Let's get some good discussion going

[RalphieSpeaks]

Public perception is what got us into this mess. We took the better known Hawk over Peterson because we needed a "homerun hire". Then we took a CU rich staff because we needed to restore our tradition. 0-2 on those lines of thinking.

If we focused on people who run professional programs, experienced play callers, coaches who know how to win, good recruiters, we can't go wrong. I think about where we'd be if we had hired Peterson. We were that close to having the Tad Boyle of football running things. Has to give us hope for the next hire.

At the time Hawkins was considered a big time up and coming coach. No one would have went in and hired the up and coming coaches OC over the coach.

 

[Duff Man]

I don't think Bohn deserves a complete pass for hiring Hawkins. He was basically the one and only name on Bohn's list. Any decent Division I athletic director should have a list of about five names ready to go at any given time.

 

[Uncle Ken]

I don't think Bohn deserves a complete pass for hiring Hawkins. He was basically the one and only name on Bohn's list. Any decent Division I athletic director should have a list of about five names ready to go at any given time.

Christ knows that I do.

 

[Junction]

Please show me some stats before you start saying sh!t like that. Last time I checked Mike Bohn's career record of hiring coaches @ Idaho and SDSU was .386 or something close. Look at his record with the Idaho football team alone. He hired Tom Cable to run the team after two losing seasons. He fired the last winning coach in school history and Cable had 11 wins in four seasons. Sounds a lot like Embree.

Please show me some stats BESIDES TAD BOYLE(even a broken clock is right twice a day) to support your claim that Bohn has a good track record of hiring coaches. He already on his second FB, BB coaches(mens and womens), but I will give him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to fundraising.

Edit: his hires of the BBall teams were just as bad. Don't believe me take a look. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idaho_Vandals_men's_basketball
Bohn presided from 1998-2003. Notice how everytime a coach(doesn't matter what sport) is hired the coach regresses until Bohn leaves. I guess we're doomed to the same fate.

Yeah, Cable had a .239 winning percentage at Idaho. The 3 coaches that followed him (not hired by Bohn) combined for a .276 winning percentage. Cable moved on to UCLA, then the NFL, where he actually had the Raiduhs improving when Al Davis fired him. It seems like the issue there may be more with the job than the coach... He replaced Chris Tormey, who left for Nevada, btw. Saying that Bohn fired him is not exactly a fact like you claim to be looking for. It's more of a lie, actually.

At SDSU, he inherited Tom Craft and Steve Fisher. Craft coached through the 2005 season (Bohn left in October 05) and Fisher is still there. He did bring back Beth Burns for a second stint as women's basketball coach and she has taken SDSU to the tourney three times and Sweet Sixteen once. He also inherited Tony Gwynn as baseball coach, and he is also still there.

The worst hire I can see on his resume' was Leonard Perry as men's basketball coach at Idaho. He replaced a coach that went 49-61, went 48-97 himself, then was replaced by a guy that went 12-48. Not exactly a powerhouse program under any of them. Not a success, but I guess I don't see it as quite enough reason to conclude that Bohn can't ever hire a decent coach....

 

[DenverBuff77]

Yeah, Cable had a .239 winning percentage at Idaho. The 3 coaches that followed him (not hired by Bohn) combined for a .276 winning percentage. Cable moved on to UCLA, then the NFL, where he actually had the Raiduhs improving when Al Davis fired him. It seems like the issue there may be more with the job than the coach... He replaced Chris Tormey, who left for Nevada, btw. Saying that Bohn fired him is not exactly a fact like you claim to be looking for. It's more of a lie, actually.

Ok I screwed up by saying he fired him. But he still HIRED Cable. How can you dispute that was a bad hire? Bohn does the same sh!t it seems for every coach. He hires someone from a very small talent pool and then sticks with him for waaay to long. This isn't something I'm making up. The facts are right there.

 

[Walter White]

I don't think Bohn deserves a complete pass for hiring Hawkins. He was basically the one and only name on Bohn's list. Any decent Division I athletic director should have a list of about five names ready to go at any given time.

You don't know Hawk was on the only guy on his list. I think that's silly to think that. The Hawk hire is totally defendable. Every single program, even the best of the best, swing and miss on coaches, sometimes multiple times. USC, Bama, Texas, Michigan, Notre Dame, Florida...on and on and on.

What is totally inexcusable is the Hawk extension. MB should be fired for extending Hawk. Maybe the worst decision I've ever seen in college football. Then MB follows that up with hiring a JE and EB, two guys who are totally unqualified and unproven. Who hires obscure position coaches with zero experience to run a major program? That's insane.

 

[BehindEnemyLines]

Maybe I'm naive but based on our national perception I don't see how this staff can attract the quality players needed to turn this around. I feel like I'm standing on the deck of the Titanic and the iceberg is on the horizon. Someone please turn the shop before we collide.

 

[buffaholic]

Interesting that you bring up Wulf. I posted on here that I was against firing him. I thought he was putting his system together and upgrading talent. They were still losing way too much, but I saw them getting better. And he had the track record of success at Eastern Washington, iirc. Leach made some sense since it was a similar system that wouldn't erode the work Wulf had done and the "big name" aspect gave recruiting a shot in the arm (4* QB this cycle and beat us for some WRs in their transitional class), but even with those considerations I thought Wulf deserved more time.

I hope people in authority at CU are reading this and understand that we're not just a bunch of reactionary fans who call "Off with their heads!" after any losing season. I'd say that 90% of this board went into the Embree era thinking he should be given 3 or 4 years. But the performance by every measure has just been shockingly bad.

I brought that up because I was trying to show I'm not an "off-with-their-heads" type. I just sent my letter off to the powers that be and I tried to make that point. I'm a CFB junkie. I'm realistic. I understand things take time. Often, admins are not patient enough. Hell, I even was thinking Hawkins would turn it around a year longer than I should have. I run my own company filled with a bunch of hothead salespeople. I pride myself in making well-informed, calm decisions, and always, always having patience.

Paul Wulff at WSU was replaced by a wildcard. It had the potential to accelerate them in either direction. They took this risk over slow and steady progress. Not sure I would have done that, but I see the logic.
Iowa State (Rhoads) and Syracuse (Marrone) are two other programs trying to use a qualified coach with ties to the program to rebuild. Progress has been slow, but I think it's real. It's not going to be better each year. Well coached programs like Oregon State have cycles. Up and down.

My point is that unless you have a homerun hire that instantly upgrades talent levels thru recruiting, you have to make steady progress. Recruits will come in time. But you got to improve what you got so that recruits can start to buy in. Recruits who may have listened to the pitch, have shut down.

I feel that a head coach who is qualified to lead the program, with ties to Colorado in some fashion (like Tad Boyle has) is the way to go. No hired guns. Someone who is qualified and not looking to propel himself to the SEC or NFL. The blueprint above is not the only way, it is a sound way though.

Unfortunately, from the get go, we all had questions about Embree's background to do this. I know for sure I posted that I would take a good offensive coordinator over an unproven one who has great recruiting skills. Recruiting skills don't work in year 2 if you suck on the field. We are now living the horror I'm afraid.....

For reference:
Wulff - 8 years as head coach at EWU, where they improved greatly and was up for National Coach of the year in 2 of his last 4 years. At WSU (where he was fired after 4 years), offensive production improved in each year and defensive performance improved in his final 3 years. He is now the senior offensive assistant of the SF 49ers.
Rhoads - former Def Coordinator 9 years (Auburn and Pitt), former assistant at ISU, Iowa native
Marrone - former Off Coordinator New Orleans Saints, played at Syracuse

P.S. not advocating anything here other than one should see some sort of measurable progress along the way, and even a slight pullback is ok if you can explain it. I am sure the above fan bases are not all bought in that they are making progress, but I'd argue they are wrong. Nobody on this earth can defend the complete collapse of our football program.

 

[Denver_sc]

1. The Coaches Association downgrades a job if the school has terminated before 3 years on the job.
2. Embree inherited a difficult situation and 2 years is not enough time to fix it (talent, culture, facilities that lag behind peers, difficulty for a quick fix when CU can't get many JUCOs through admissions, etc.).
3. Administrative fear of racial politics since Coach Mac opened that can of worms when Embree was hired and there could be blowback of firing him after 2 years when Hawkins was given 5 years.
4. Financial considerations. It costs money to fire coaches and hire new ones. The CU AD has been in financial difficulty for a while and it's tough to fight the easy sound byte from opposition that says tuition rates are out of control but the university can come up with $2+ million to change coaches.
5. Studies that show that firing a coach quickly more often results in a cycle of hirings/firings without improvement than it does in a new level of success achieved by the new coach.

sorry, didn't read the whole thread, but:

1. **** those people.
2. **** that. Perform or GTFO.
3. **** the people who would bring that up.
4. **** that. Only is a reason if you don't consider lost revenue from donations and attendance due to a ****** team.
5. **** that. We can keep this staff and suck, or we can try a new staff and maybe not suck. I like the second option.

 

[DenverBuff77]

You don't know Hawk was on the only guy on his list. I think that's silly to think that. The Hawk hire is totally defendable. Every single program, even the best of the best, swing and miss on coaches, sometimes multiple times. USC, Bama, Texas, Michigan, Notre Dame, Florida...on and on and on.

What is totally inexcusable is the Hawk extension. MB should be fired for extending Hawk. Maybe the worst decision I've ever seen in college football. Then MB follows that up with hiring a JE and EB, two guys who are totally unqualified and unproven. Who hires obscure position coaches with zero experience to run a major program? That's insane.

No we weren't privy to that info, but usually a list of coaches that are being interviewed by a university eventually make their way into the public. Bohn seemed to target only Hawkins. He kept saying he had the "perfect fit" for "Boulder", not the school, and he was looking at Hawkins personality to fit the town instead of the right fit for the school. Boise fans kept saying we hired the wrong guy and while I don't fault Bohn for hiring Hawkins, it seems he didn't do his research on him, which would've raised red flags(is it really the coordinator who is behind this coach and if so we need them BOTH) for any AD doing a good coaching search.

 

[Wyo Buff]

CU will be back if the administration can do this three things.

1. Hire a high profile coach that can have a major impact on recruiting and can coach
2. Build new facilities for the football team
3. Physical Education is offered as a major

Wow. Did you vote for Palin?

 

[Junction]

Ok I screwed up by saying he fired him. But he still HIRED Cable. How can you dispute that was a bad hire? Bohn does the same sh!t it seems for every coach. He hires someone from a very small talent pool and then sticks with him for waaay to long. This isn't something I'm making up. The facts are right there.

He was at IDAHO!! And he hired a guy who went on the be a BCS coordinator and an NFL head coach (who actually had the Raiduhs playing .500 ball when he was fired - which was pretty much a high water mark for that franchise for about a decade...). Again, at IDAHO!!

I'm sure Nick Saban and Bob Stoops were sorely tempted to jump on that job. Stupid Bohnhead just couldn't get them to pull the trigger.... :rolling_eyes:

You keep saying "the facts are right there". But I layed out for you the coaches he has hired as an AD. I'm really not seeing the "facts" you keep talking about. Perhaps you would like to cite some specific examples of your own...

 

[Gold]

At the time Hawkins was considered a big time up and coming coach. No one would have went in and hired the up and coming coaches OC over the coach.

I believe the consultant, forgot who, did recommended Petersen to CU. Not Hawk. Bohn picked Hawk. I see nothing wrong with hiring an up and coming OC/DC vs an up and coming HC who doesn't have prior OC/DC experience.

Urban Meyer didn't have prior OC/DC experience, but he did coach positions at OSU and ND. But he's not the typical coach either.

 

[Lt.Col.FrankSlade]

I believe the consultant, forgot who, did recommended Petersen to CU. Not Hawk. Bohn picked Hawk. I see nothing wrong with hiring an up and coming OC/DC vs an up and coming HC who doesn't have prior OC/DC experience.

Urban Meyer didn't have prior OC/DC experience, but he did coach positions at OSU and ND. But he's not the typical coach either.

No, no no no no no. That is just wrong.

Chuck Neinas recommended and brokered the deal that brought Dan Hawkins to CU. Neinas did NOT recommend Petersen. He recommended Hawkins.