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Time For the Annual Article on S & C

Buffnik said:
I was going to let this go, but I can't.

We are on completely opposite opinions with this one. The technology to measure and test athletes for so many things and customize nutrition and workout regimens in response to those results, modified by what the coaches and players want to achieve for a particular position and player... makes the S&C program more important than it has ever been. There is such a huge opportunity to be more sophisticated and effective than ever before and to achieve significant competitive advantage on that with higher performance levels and reduced injuries.
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Fair enough. But if you have access to that technology then doesn't everybody? And especially a P5 S&C staff? How does that differentiate us from Oregon State, Utah or anyone else? I highly doubt that Embree's S&C guy, Pittman, Kreis and whoever else was so bad that they brought down the entire team.

I'm not doubting that S&C has a certain value. It's just not going to lead CU into the ranks of top programs now or ever, no matter who happens to be running the gym. It's not going to land top recruits and it's not going to turn guys with subpar genetics into supermen. It boggles the mind that anyone thinks S&C was any more than the most minor part of the football team's perpetual subpar performances.
 
You don't think it is possible S&C played a large role in our recent struggles? Really?
 
schubeal said:
Out of curiosity, how many back issues of Muscle and Fitness do you have lying around?
Click to expand...

Two guys wandering around.....S &C means nuthin'.....got it! Guess ol' HCMM was blowin' smoke when he acknowledged the weakest part of the team, the OL, was weak in leg and core strength.....means nuthin'.....got it! Alls you need is some bars and few plates of different sizes and a couple dudes to wander around and you gotcher sef a S&C program.....got it! Top programs and the pros' heavy investment in individualization of S & C means nuhtin'.....got it!

Muscle and Fitness your idea of S & C? Read this http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/31/s...n-redefines-strength.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 Your ignorance is unbecoming at this point.

Forman was Turley's top assistant at 'Furd before HCMM snapped him up for SJSU and then brought him to Boulder. In just one season, the decline in games which Buff starters lost to injury was what, 80%? And that was a repeat of what happened at SJSU when Forman stepped in there! Don't let those stats bite you in the ass as you're reading your old Muscle rags while sitting on the head.
 
Duff Man said:
You don't think it is possible S&C played a large role in our recent struggles? Really?
Click to expand...

No. S&C has zero to do with...

1. 1st & 10 QB sneak
2. Kansas coming from 28 down to win
3. Darrell Scott being a bust
4. That Fresno RB running for 700 yards against us
5. Inability to recruit a BCS caliber class for a decade (minus Hawk year 2)
 
You guys are cracking me up. I can acknowledge that S&C might not be much different at the top 30-40 programs, but I think it took a while for CU to realize this and close the gap. Reminds me of the people who argued better facilities were a waste of money.

Everything (coaching, recruiting, facilities, S&C) in this program has been woefully inadequate the last decade.
 
schubeal said:
Fair enough. But if you have access to that technology then doesn't everybody? And especially a P5 S&C staff? How does that differentiate us from Oregon State, Utah or anyone else? I highly doubt that Embree's S&C guy, Pittman, Kreis and whoever else was so bad that they brought down the entire team.

I'm not doubting that S&C has a certain value. It's just not going to lead CU into the ranks of top programs now or ever, no matter who happens to be running the gym. It's not going to land top recruits and it's not going to turn guys with subpar genetics into supermen. It boggles the mind that anyone thinks S&C was any more than the most minor part of the football team's perpetual subpar performances.
Click to expand...

That's just it, schubeal. I don't think anyone is saying that S&C is the be all and end all. No matter what you do, whether legal or not, is going to turn undersized and untalented athletes into a group that's going to beat USC.

But it was a part of the problem. Hawkins had an Olympic lifting program that was using bad form. It killed knees and shoulders. Injuries were a huge problem. It hurt the program. Under Embree, it improved. He saw the problem and made strides to fix it.

MacIntyre, with Forman, takes those improvements to the next level. It's not just about doing the right kinds of lifts and designing the right kind of year-round program for the modern game. It's also about obtaining the data, looking at it in the right way, and adjusting things individually based on what the findings are. We have seen nutrition changes and workout schedules adjusted based on iron anemia seen on blood samples or low blood oxygen telling that a guy needs to rest & recover more. Maybe other P5 programs were doing this. We weren't. Maybe it's only removed a disadvantage while keeping our athletes healthier. But even if it's only that, it has closed a competitive disadvantage.

Similarly, MacIntyre brought his academic support guru with him. This had been a problem. It is being solved. Maybe we don't do better than other P5 schools now, but we have closed a gap that had been putting us at a competitive disadvantage.

Likewise, facilities. Even if I'm a skeptic and don't want to buy that what we're building will be among the best in college football... I still must acknowledge that what we had was among the worst. At the least, we have closed a gap that put us at a competitive disadvantage.

Same thing on what we're seeing with a professional coaching staff. Do I know that MacIntyre, as compared to the other 11 coaches in the Pac-12, is a better game planner, talent evaluator, on-field coach or any of the other things that go into that job and the management of the program? No. That's a hell of a lot to expect from someone given the level of success these other professionals have had in their respective careers. But I do know that we now have a coach who knows what he's doing and belongs in the Pac-12 fraternity. We haven't had a coach that gave me that confidence since Barnett. It may not give the Buffs an advantage, but we have removed a competitive disadvantage.

All this stuff is important and it's all part of the puzzle. I'm jumping on this with a long post because for too long I've heard from too many CU fans that CU sells itself and all we need is a coach who can find talent and motivate it like McCartney did. That facilities, academics, S&C and all the rest is almost irrelevant because CU has so much to offer that it sells itself if you find the right coach. After all, McCartney did it. That thinking is a cancer that we have to cut out. It's not the 1980s any more. There's so much more money, media and technology now that the old approach is a time capsule, not a model. In the here and now and into the future, CU's path to reaching its past glories is to remove the competitive disadvantages so that the parts of CU that sell itself can take over and a great coach can win a national title here.
 
Duff Man said:
You don't think it is possible S&C played a large role in our recent struggles? Really?
Click to expand...
Possible, yes. But pretty far down the list compared to bad recruiting, inexperienced gameday coaches and a disinterested administration. Although it seems that an (apparently) poor S&C program is widely viewed as symptomatic of the latter issue.
 
Buffnik said:
That's just it, schubeal. I don't think anyone is saying that S&C is the be all and end all. No matter what you do, whether legal or not, is going to turn undersized and untalented athletes into a group that's going to beat USC.

But it was a part of the problem. Hawkins had an Olympic lifting program that was using bad form. It killed knees and shoulders. Injuries were a huge problem. It hurt the program. Under Embree, it improved. He saw the problem and made strides to fix it.

MacIntyre, with Forman, takes those improvements to the next level. It's not just about doing the right kinds of lifts and designing the right kind of year-round program for the modern game. It's also about obtaining the data, looking at it in the right way, and adjusting things individually based on what the findings are. We have seen nutrition changes and workout schedules adjusted based on iron anemia seen on blood samples or low blood oxygen telling that a guy needs to rest & recover more. Maybe other P5 programs were doing this. We weren't. Maybe it's only removed a disadvantage while keeping our athletes healthier. But even if it's only that, it has closed a competitive disadvantage.

Similarly, MacIntyre brought his academic support guru with him. This had been a problem. It is being solved. Maybe we don't do better than other P5 schools now, but we have closed a gap that had been putting us at a competitive disadvantage.

Likewise, facilities. Even if I'm a skeptic and don't want to buy that what we're building will be among the best in college football... I still must acknowledge that what we had was among the worst. At the least, we have closed a gap that put us at a competitive disadvantage.

Same thing on what we're seeing with a professional coaching staff. Do I know that MacIntyre, as compared to the other 11 coaches in the Pac-12, is a better game planner, talent evaluator, on-field coach or any of the other things that go into that job and the management of the program? No. That's a hell of a lot to expect from someone given the level of success these other professionals have had in their respective careers. But I do know that we now have a coach who knows what he's doing and belongs in the Pac-12 fraternity. We haven't had a coach that gave me that confidence since Barnett. It may not give the Buffs an advantage, but we have removed a competitive disadvantage.

All this stuff is important and it's all part of the puzzle. I'm jumping on this with a long post because for too long I've heard from too many CU fans that CU sells itself and all we need is a coach who can find talent and motivate it like McCartney did. That facilities, academics, S&C and all the rest is almost irrelevant because CU has so much to offer that it sells itself if you find the right coach. After all, McCartney did it. That thinking is a cancer that we have to cut out. It's not the 1980s any more. There's so much more money, media and technology now that the old approach is a time capsule, not a model. In the here and now and into the future, CU's path to reaching its past glories is to remove the competitive disadvantages so that the parts of CU that sell itself can take over and a great coach can win a national title here.
Click to expand...
Read this twice. Then read it again.
 
Buffnik said:
That's just it, schubeal. I don't think anyone is saying that S&C is the be all and end all. No matter what you do, whether legal or not, is going to turn undersized and untalented athletes into a group that's going to beat USC.

But it was a part of the problem. Hawkins had an Olympic lifting program that was using bad form. It killed knees and shoulders. Injuries were a huge problem. It hurt the program. Under Embree, it improved. He saw the problem and made strides to fix it.

MacIntyre, with Forman, takes those improvements to the next level. It's not just about doing the right kinds of lifts and designing the right kind of year-round program for the modern game. It's also about obtaining the data, looking at it in the right way, and adjusting things individually based on what the findings are. We have seen nutrition changes and workout schedules adjusted based on iron anemia seen on blood samples or low blood oxygen telling that a guy needs to rest & recover more. Maybe other P5 programs were doing this. We weren't. Maybe it's only removed a disadvantage while keeping our athletes healthier. But even if it's only that, it has closed a competitive disadvantage.

Similarly, MacIntyre brought his academic support guru with him. This had been a problem. It is being solved. Maybe we don't do better than other P5 schools now, but we have closed a gap that had been putting us at a competitive disadvantage.

Likewise, facilities. Even if I'm a skeptic and don't want to buy that what we're building will be among the best in college football... I still must acknowledge that what we had was among the worst. At the least, we have closed a gap that put us at a competitive disadvantage.

Same thing on what we're seeing with a professional coaching staff. Do I know that MacIntyre, as compared to the other 11 coaches in the Pac-12, is a better game planner, talent evaluator, on-field coach or any of the other things that go into that job and the management of the program? No. That's a hell of a lot to expect from someone given the level of success these other professionals have had in their respective careers. But I do know that we now have a coach who knows what he's doing and belongs in the Pac-12 fraternity. We haven't had a coach that gave me that confidence since Barnett. It may not give the Buffs an advantage, but we have removed a competitive disadvantage.

All this stuff is important and it's all part of the puzzle. I'm jumping on this with a long post because for too long I've heard from too many CU fans that CU sells itself and all we need is a coach who can find talent and motivate it like McCartney did. That facilities, academics, S&C and all the rest is almost irrelevant because CU has so much to offer that it sells itself if you find the right coach. After all, McCartney did it. That thinking is a cancer that we have to cut out. It's not the 1980s any more. There's so much more money, media and technology now that the old approach is a time capsule, not a model. In the here and now and into the future, CU's path to reaching its past glories is to remove the competitive disadvantages so that the parts of CU that sell itself can take over and a great coach can win a national title here.
Click to expand...
Just awesome. Rep
 
S&C is and has been a factor. I think our guys train much better now than they have previously. We shall see.
 
BuffLuKe said:
S&C is and has been a factor. I think our guys train much better now than they have previously. We shall see.
Click to expand...

My problem is that every coach that has come in for awhile - I remember Hawkins making a big deal about Pittman and everyone was so excited about (turned out he was out of his depth). I do believe a good S&C program is important but is it a prime factor in closing the gap - I don't think so.
 
If the current S&cC program is a prime factor in closing the gap, we'll see it on the field this year. I tend to think it is a key factor. We saw good progress in our athleticism and reduced injuries last year. Hopefully we'll see that the team has collectively taken the next step again this season.
 
gone native said:
If the current S&cC program is a prime factor in closing the gap, we'll see it on the field this year. I tend to think it is a key factor. We saw good progress in our athleticism and reduced injuries last year. Hopefully we'll see that the team has collectively taken the next step again this season.
Click to expand...

We saw tremendous progress in injuries last year. No doubt some of that is luck, but if we want to continue to improve, we can't go back to where we were injury wise in 2011 and 2012.
 
Its makes a difference and thanks, I think, there Buffenuf. It's not gonna make you a player, it'll keep your ass on the field though.
 
J.R. Ewing said:
We saw tremendous progress in injuries last year. No doubt some of that is luck, but if we want to continue to improve, we can't go back to where we were injury wise in 2011 and 2012.
Click to expand...

Agreed on the luck, we will have to wait and see if the injury records remain.

Now with that said when you have no depth because you recruited poorly losing games to injury is MUCH more important than when the next guy up was a top-100 recruit. It seems odd to me that is not more obvious to people in this thread. Just look at Richardson when the went down and Mucholloh became the deep threat, dont you think the story would have been different if we had Robert Woods on the team?
 
I can't weight for football season. Hopefully, it'll lift my spirits. Just hope the team doesn't press or curl up into a fetal position. I don't give squat for the off season. Hopefully, we will see some of the guys on the bench pressed into action.

Gawd, this is bad.
 
Last edited:
DBT said:
I can't weight for football season. Hopefully, it'll lift my spirits. Just hope the team doesn't press or curl up into a fetal position. I don't give squat for the off season. Hopefully, we will see some of the guys on the bench pressed into action.

Gawd, this is bad.
Click to expand...

This is why we consider you dead weight.
 
absinthe said:
Agreed on the luck, we will have to wait and see if the injury records remain.

Now with that said when you have no depth because you recruited poorly losing games to injury is MUCH more important than when the next guy up was a top-100 recruit. It seems odd to me that is not more obvious to people in this thread. Just look at Richardson when the went down and Mucholloh became the deep threat, dont you think the story would have been different if we had Robert Woods on the team?
Click to expand...

Most fans consider numbers at a particular position quality depth.
 
DBT said:
I can't weight for football season. Hopefully, it'll lift my spirits. Just hope the team doesn't press or curl up into a fetal position. I don't give squat for the off season. Hopefully, we will see some of the guys on the bench pressed into action.

Gawd, this is bad.
Click to expand...

Squat thrust you!
 
S & C is a critical factor to closing the gap but it is an indirect factor.

Good S & C leads to less injury, less injury leads to better coached/more cohesive teams, better coached/more cohesive teams leads to better play on game day, better play on game day leads to more wins, more wins leads to better visibility for the program, better visibility for the program leads to better recruits, better recruits plus everything above leads to closing the gap.

You need consistency to get momentum and then the momentum opens up the possibilities to get what's needed to close the gap. I think that's why S & C is usually one of the first things that gets changed when a new HC starts. It's really hard to get the train rolling if the players pushing the train keep dropping out due to injury.
 
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