You can't stop recruiting arguments, you can only hope to contain them

[sackman]

How's Oregon's recruiting going?

 

[SpacemanSpiff]

First, MacIntyre should have been absolutely certain he hired a couple of good recruiters as assistant coaches on his staff. Since the salary pool seriously increased for the new staff, this should not have been difficult. He failed IMO, with a staff of WAC level recruiters - Jeffcoat, Clark, LaRussa, Lindgren, Adams and Neinas, or older assistant coaches who simply don't have the necessary passion for recruiting - Baer and Bernardi. Even Troy Walters is just a mediocre recruiter IMO - ask A&M fans, that was his rep there. If necessary, MacIntyre could have easily hired 1 or 2 coaches off of the prior staff who are in-fact proven good recruiters at the BCS level, like Bobby Kennedy or Mike Tuiasosopo.

Secondly, start recruiting 2nd and even 3rd tier players from the inner city like other PAC 12 programs. At least they have athletic talent. But, they may not be great students and choir boys, so CU and this staff does not want them? How many players on CU's roster are from inner city Houston, Dallas or even Los Angeles? Very few - watching Washington last night, the had great talent from the following high school programs - Long Beach Jordan, LA Dorsey, LA Crenshaw, LA Narbonne, LA Centennial, Dominguez and St John Bosco (all in Compton), Sacramento Grant, Oakland McClymonds, Miami Norland. For the most part, this staff does not appear to recruit ther inner city high schools in any meaningful way. Why not?

Finally, there should be much more emphasis in recruiting jucos and four year transfers. At least it is a pipeline to talent. We needed 5-10 jucos in this class, even McIntyre said CU could take up to six. Here again, the staff failed to successfully recruit the juco ranks, signing only Akhello Weatherspoon and a long snapper in the early signing period.

My view is this staff is way over its head trying to recruit at this level. In fact, I don't think they will recruit appreciably better even if CU miraculously wins 6 games next year and makes a bowl game.


No one sane is asking for 4 and 5 star recruits, but I counted a total of 11 other BCS offers for 20 recruits!

See? Now you are starting to put some thoughts together into sentences. Good for you.

Ultimately, we won't know if the staff is "way over its head" for a couple of years. But I think you are missing a few key things in your analysis. First, the fact that McIntyre has a track record of rebuilding programs. And it wouldn't be hard to argue that the project he completed at SJSU was tougher than the one he faces at CU. It's obvious to anyone who has been watching the program (even for those who rarely travel up to Boulder...hint, hint), that Coach McIntyre is a guy with a plan. And I think the reason he kept most of the staff together, was to accomplish the first phase of his plan, which is to recruit "foundation" pieces. You say he's in over his head, but then how did he end up with several key contributors (as freshmen!) with such a short recruiting cycle last year? I think phase two of the plan is to win enough games to get noticed by the upper level athletes (i.e., get to a bowl game and/or get an "ESPN highlight" win).

As for recruiting athletes with questionable character or scholastic capability, we've done that recently. How'd that work out for us? Not so good. Most of those guys ended up leaving one way or another. Attrition like that kills a program. As Mac the First said, it's not who you miss out on, it's who you take and don't pan out. An isolated gamble on a kid here or there is fine. But to load up on them is foolish. Oh, and guys like you would rightly destroy CU if a bunch of these kids started populating the local crime blotter. So you win either way, huh?

Lastly, if you'd pay attention, McIntyre certainly amped up his recruiting of JC guys this cycle. We got a few and we lost a few we wanted. But he's certainly targeted some key spots for JC talent.

Enjoy Italy. Don't let Lady Liberty hit you on the ass on the way out. Unless you're into that kind of thing.

 

[Duff Man]

I actually think you bring up some valid points, but you lost me big time at signing up to 10 JUCOs, that is way too many in one class. That should never happen.

I would like to see progress in Dallas, the Inland Empire, and Phoenix in the next cycle.

 

[buffs233]

How's Oregon's recruiting going?

I am answered your thread with exactly what MacIntyre could have done to recruit better at CU, and all you have got is to accuse me of being John Henderson????

 

[buffaholic]

Take a look at the TCU class. I just looked at it because of the Texas ATH guy we are hoping to visit in January who appears to be waiting on a TCU offer.

They have 11 underclassmen committed. They show only 6 visits scheduled (many of them past tense). Overall, their guys generally are lacking BCS offers and, in general, the offers lists look worse than the CU commits'.

While TCU hasn't lit the B12 on fire (yet), I think there's pretty high level of respect for what Patterson has done year in and year out. He knows what he's looking for.

 

[slider]

Take a look at the TCU class. I just looked at it because of the Texas ATH guy we are hoping to visit in January who appears to be waiting on a TCU offer.

They have 11 underclassmen committed. They show only 6 visits scheduled (many of them past tense). Overall, their guys generally are lacking BCS offers and, in general, the offers lists look worse than the CU commits'.

While TCU hasn't lit the B12 on fire (yet), I think there's pretty high level of respect for what Patterson has done year in and year out. He knows what he's looking for.

???

 

[Quattro]

Bogus statistics and you probably know it. I am talking about other BCS offers, not including CU. I counted 11 BCS offers for 20 recruits, a prescription for failure at a BCS program.

The prescription for failure is the inability to keep kids we have signed in-school

 

[SpacemanSpiff]

Take a look at the TCU class. I just looked at it because of the Texas ATH guy we are hoping to visit in January who appears to be waiting on a TCU offer.

They have 11 underclassmen committed. They show only 6 visits scheduled (many of them past tense). Overall, their guys generally are lacking BCS offers and, in general, the offers lists look worse than the CU commits'.

While TCU hasn't lit the B12 on fire (yet), I think there's pretty high level of respect for what Patterson has done year in and year out. He knows what he's looking for.

I really like Patterson but he has really struggled since joining Big 12. Suprising to me because the Big 12 has not been a very strong conference in those 2 years. The move to the Big 12 should have helped him more than it has so far.

 

[Duff Man]

We are trying to win in a much tougher conference. I don't find what Patterson is doing at TCU particularly compelling.

 

[buffaholic]

Someone show me a program that was rebuilt with bringing in some "great recruiters". I still haven't seen that. I can name a bunch of programs that have improved dramatically with great coaching.

Or name the top coaches today and look at their rise to glory at places (before they landed at the blue bloods) and tell me it had anything to do with making big splashes on recruiting day:

Urban Meyer at Bowling Green, Utah?
Nick Saban at Toledo and Michigan State?
Brady Hoke at Ball State and SDSU?
Brian Kelly at Grand Valley State, Central Michigan or Cincinatti?
Jim Harbaugh at San Diego or Stanford?
Bret Bielema at Wisconsin?
Jerry Kill at Minnesota?

I can go on and on. Sure some of these guys amped up recruiting, but that always followed their success in building stuff.

Someone show me evidence whereby a team was drastically improved by a new coach coming in and amping up recruiting immediately. Don't use a perennial top program like LSU or Ohio State as an example. Their bad teams were loaded with talent. Tell me about a guy who came in and really improved recruiting and that translated to great improvement 2 or more years down the line.

Don't tell me how obvious it is because the top 10 perennial powers are always rated highly in recruiting. Yes. That's a given. I'm talking about building something. Whether it's at Northern Illinois, Toledo, TCU, Utah, SJSU, Wisconsin, Baylor, Uconn, or whatever. I'm looking for guys who came in and turned around recruiting by getting highly coveted classes (as measured by the services) from the get-go.

I'm sure there are a few. But is this the primary success factor in turn-arounds? I find so many examples of turnarounds happening that weren't preceded by big high-fiving celebrations by their fan base in February.

 

[SD Buff]

Will give you an example of failed amped up recruiting, on paper of course. Throat Slash at kNU.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

 

[buffaholic]

Lots of examples of those, although usually the next coach gets instantaneous results from the great recruits.
Neuheisel handed Mora some decent talent.
Blake did the same for Stoops at OU.
Callahan did the same for Pelini at UW.

Certainly Sarkisian ramped up his recruiting at UW when he hired Tosh, but there's been no discernible benefit over what Sarkisian inherited. 5 wins every year in conference....

Not saying recruiting is great, but is it really the deathly blow some of yous are touting? Where are the examples that THIS is what is required to turn-around the program? Yes Alabama recruits well and is successful. Therefore, any team hoping to get a lot better must recruit like Alabama? Don't think so.....

 

[sackman]

MM had a choice to make when he came here - either bring in guys who he feels can get the most out of the players he has, or bring in guys who can go out and make a splash in recruiting. I don't believe you can have guys who do both. Those guys don't exist, IMO. Or if they do exist, they're not coming to this dumpster fire, so forget about it. MM chose to bring in guys who knew the system he wanted to run and could teach it effectively. The staff has an idea of the kind of player they want and are going after those guys. Apparently Hendo 223 thinks we can just go out and get better recruiters and concentrate in certain places and all will be well. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way.

 

[SINKRATZ]

Someone show me a program that was rebuilt with bringing in some "great recruiters". I still haven't seen that. I can name a bunch of programs that have improved dramatically with great coaching.

Or name the top coaches today and look at their rise to glory at places (before they landed at the blue bloods) and tell me it had anything to do with making big splashes on recruiting day:

Urban Meyer at Bowling Green, Utah?
Nick Saban at Toledo and Michigan State?
Brady Hoke at Ball State and SDSU?
Brian Kelly at Grand Valley State, Central Michigan or Cincinatti?
Jim Harbaugh at San Diego or Stanford?
Bret Bielema at Wisconsin?
Jerry Kill at Minnesota?

I can go on and on. Sure some of these guys amped up recruiting, but that always followed their success in building stuff.

Someone show me evidence whereby a team was drastically improved by a new coach coming in and amping up recruiting immediately. Don't use a perennial top program like LSU or Ohio State as an example. Their bad teams were loaded with talent. Tell me about a guy who came in and really improved recruiting and that translated to great improvement 2 or more years down the line.

Don't tell me how obvious it is because the top 10 perennial powers are always rated highly in recruiting. Yes. That's a given. I'm talking about building something. Whether it's at Northern Illinois, Toledo, TCU, Utah, SJSU, Wisconsin, Baylor, Uconn, or whatever. I'm looking for guys who came in and turned around recruiting by getting highly coveted classes (as measured by the services) from the get-go.

I'm sure there are a few. But is this the primary success factor in turn-arounds? I find so many examples of turnarounds happening that weren't preceded by big high-fiving celebrations by their fan base in February.

How many of the coaches you named built successful programs after coming out of the gate with the lowest ranked recruiting class in their conference?

I'm not sure what your point is, the coaches you named bring in some of the best recruiting classes in the country regularly. Or are you comparing us to Bowling Green and Grand Valley State?

 

[slider]

At some point results matters. All of our assistants are being paid in the 6 figures. It's still early but quite clear that we may have 1-2 recruiters on the staff. So they better be elite coaches instead. It must be easy to be a CU coach and rack up hundreds of thousands of dollars with minimal expectations.

And yes none of those programs recruited extremely well. However we're last in the conference and last out of all bcs programs. Dead last

 

[Liver]

I am answered your thread with exactly what MacIntyre could have done to recruit better at CU, and all you have got is to accuse me of being John Henderson????

I don't disagree with much of what you've said in this thread. That doesn't mean you aren't Henderson. Lol.

 

[Quattro]

I'm just glad the future is certain

 

[slider]

CU doesn't need to pay a premium for coaches with basically no track record. IIRC our $2.6mil would be in the top 3 in the conference.

Troy Walters (WR coach/Recruiting Coordinator): $300k
Matt Lubick (WR coach/Passing coordinator at Oregon): $325k. Named CFB's top recruiter and proven success at ASU and Duke
Brent Brennnan (WR Coach Oregon St): $175k

Brian Lindgren (OC): $450k
Noel Mazzone (OC at UCLA): $375k
Brian Johnson (when he was OC at Utah): $225k. His resume/age is similar to Lindgren

The rest of the salary numbers aren't public besides Lindgren ($450k) and Baer ($452k). Assuming we are at the $2.6mil the rest of the staff would make an average of $233k.

Why does CU continually overpay for assistants? Is it because CU is "such a dumpster fire that no one would ever want to come here?" Do you guys work for a business where you make substantially more than your counterparts just because your employer sucks? And where your results really don't matter but you get paid premium money anyway?

 

[schubeal]

Secondly, start recruiting 2nd and even 3rd tier players from the inner city like other PAC 12 programs. At least they have athletic talent. But, they may not be great students and choir boys, so CU and this staff does not want them? How many players on CU's roster are from inner city Houston, Dallas or even Los Angeles? Very few - watching Washington last night, the had great talent from the following high school programs - Long Beach Jordan, LA Dorsey, LA Crenshaw, LA Narbonne, LA Centennial, Dominguez and St John Bosco (all in Compton), Sacramento Grant, Oakland McClymonds, Miami Norland. For the most part, this staff does not appear to recruit ther inner city high schools in any meaningful way. Why not?

In other words, you don't believe attrition due to grades or behavioral issues has been an issue for CU over the past decade. Also, you believe that CU and Boulder creates a hospitable, rehabilitative atmosphere for kids from the inner city. Correct on both counts?

 

[OUBuff]

CU doesn't need to pay a premium for coaches with basically no track record. IIRC our $2.6mil would be in the top 3 in the conference.

Troy Walters (WR coach/Recruiting Coordinator): $300k
Matt Lubick (WR coach/Passing coordinator at Oregon): $325k. Named CFB's top recruiter and proven success at ASU and Duke
Brent Brennnan (WR Coach Oregon St): $175k

Brian Lindgren (OC): $450k
Noel Mazzone (OC at UCLA): $375k
Brian Johnson (when he was OC at Utah): $225k. His resume/age is similar to Lindgren

The rest of the salary numbers aren't public besides Lindgren ($450k) and Baer ($452k). Assuming we are at the $2.6mil the rest of the staff would make an average of $233k.

Why does CU continually overpay for assistants? Is it because CU is "such a dumpster fire that no one would ever want to come here?" Do you guys work for a business where you make substantially more than your counterparts just because your employer sucks? And where your results really don't matter but you get paid premium money anyway?

Slider, you may have already said, but what exactly ARE your expectations that would justify their salaries? How many W/L in their first season? How highly ranked should their recruiting class be in the first full year by rivals/scout/247/&? services? Do you have metrics that would make you satisfied at this point?

For me, I don't have high expectations for CU at this point in the short term. My only expectation is steady improvement and I am willing to give this staff a fighting chance before I call them worthless. I honestly believe MM is doing what he thinks is the best way FOR HIM to get this program back. I have been patient for the last 8-10 years, I think I can be patient for another couple-few, and I am much closer to the grave than you are.

 

[slider]

Wow. I just found our salary numbers from USA Today

Gary Bernardi: 300k
Jim Jeffcoat: 250k (not too bad, experience coaching in NFL)
Toby Neinas: 250k (L O L)
Klayton Adams: 250k
Troy Walters: 250k according to this
Charles Clark: 175k. Also only coaches Safeties
Andy LaRussa: 175k. Only coaches Cornerbacks

Overall salary pool is 2.52million. This is the 4th highest in the Pac-12

I wish I was Charles Clark and made 175k to bring in a total of 0 recruits and not make a big impact on the Safeties either.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/salaries/ncaaf/assistant/

 

[buffaholic]

How many of the coaches you named built successful programs after coming out of the gate with the lowest ranked recruiting class in their conference?

I'm not sure what your point is, the coaches you named bring in some of the best recruiting classes in the country regularly. Or are you comparing us to Bowling Green and Grand Valley State?

None of them made a splash in recruiting. Urban Meyer wasn't taking kids at Utah that were getting better offers.
Michigan State fans bitched and moaned about Saban's recruiting at MSU, until they started winning some games.

Yes, we are closer to Bowling Green than Florida or Ohio State. We are a complete and total rebuild job.


None of these guys got the "Big Job" because they had ace recruiters on their staffs, not as far as I can tell. They didn't make splashes in terms of recruiting. They just improved their programs and started winning traditions, then moved on to top 10 jobs.

Isn't that the slam on HCMM here? That he's not going to get us out of the basement because he didn't hire a recruiting ace?

 

[SD Buff]

I never wanted food cart, but vividly remember many people freaking out his staff couldn't recruit. Not doing too bad so far.
Will keep saying it, will wait to see if this class shows up to camp and performs like the kids these guys brought in last year and how they do next year being another year removed from 2010-2012, a chance to build relationships with this year's juniors and construction on facilities.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

 

[SINKRATZ]

None of them made a splash in recruiting. Urban Meyer wasn't taking kids at Utah that were getting better offers.
Michigan State fans bitched and moaned about Saban's recruiting at MSU, until they started winning some games.

Yes, we are closer to Bowling Green than Florida or Ohio State. We are a complete and total rebuild job.


None of these guys got the "Big Job" because they had ace recruiters on their staffs, not as far as I can tell. They didn't make splashes in terms of recruiting. They just improved their programs and started winning traditions, then moved on to top 10 jobs.

Isn't that the slam on HCMM here? That he's not going to get us out of the basement because he didn't hire a recruiting ace?

Urban Meyer wasn't coaching in the BCS at Utah, and Harbaugh turned Stanford into a recruiting power - it most certainly was not a top 10 program. So im still not following. Those guys are pretty top notch recruiters, or are you saying they're not but benefit from being at top 10 programs?

 

[SINKRATZ]

I'm just glad the future is certain

Well until someone invents time travel, we're left to speculate.

 

[lawdogg]

 

[White_Rabbit]

It is what it is at this point. Mac isn't going to change out anyone and the earliest he would do that is next year around this time, a time when the next class is mostly over. The optimists are hopefully right and we can get this thing turned around a bit with this level of recruiting and maybe we win another game or two next year, coupled with facilities and we can actually beat some P12 teams for some kids. We've had this discussion way too many times and I don't think a single person has changed their mind, so what's the point?

 

[Quattro]

CU doesn't need to pay a premium for coaches with basically no track record. IIRC our $2.6mil would be in the top 3 in the conference.

Troy Walters (WR coach/Recruiting Coordinator): $300k
Matt Lubick (WR coach/Passing coordinator at Oregon): $325k. Named CFB's top recruiter and proven success at ASU and Duke
Brent Brennnan (WR Coach Oregon St): $175k

Brian Lindgren (OC): $450k
Noel Mazzone (OC at UCLA): $375k
Brian Johnson (when he was OC at Utah): $225k. His resume/age is similar to Lindgren

The rest of the salary numbers aren't public besides Lindgren ($450k) and Baer ($452k). Assuming we are at the $2.6mil the rest of the staff would make an average of $233k.

Why does CU continually overpay for assistants? Is it because CU is "such a dumpster fire that no one would ever want to come here?" Do you guys work for a business where you make substantially more than your counterparts just because your employer sucks? And where your results really don't matter but you get paid premium money anyway?

I really like how you come to big conclusions based on one year (barely) and act as if the future is certain. The only actual results we have right now are the players that MM brought in after he was hired, the rest is pure speculation but you're talking like you know exactly what is going to happen with this class and as we know, nothing is certain.

Well until someone invents time travel, we're left to speculate.

Or you can look at the results of MacIntyre's late additions, which have been good so far. Here is also a list of schools that were rebuilt using their conference recruiting rankings, star rating, and national ranking. As you see, not all that impressive and are very similar to ours after a full cycle where as we still have ~2 months left.

Minnesota in Jerry Kill's first year: #50 nationally (#9 in the Big 10) - 2.79 star avg.
-Current Win% at School: 0.447 (two bowl games in past two years)
Baylor in Art Briles' first year: #51 nationally (#8 in the Big 12) - 2.45 star avg.
-Current Win% at School: 0.587 (four bowl games in four years after two straight 4-8 seasons)
Iowa State in Paul Rhodes' first year: #74 nationally (#9 in the Big 12) - 2.52 star avg.
-Current Win% at School: 0.429 (three bowl games in five years)
Cincinnati in Brian Kelly's first year: #90 nationally (#6 in the AAC - 2 others tied at #6) - 2.26 star avg.
-Current Win% at School: 0.850 (four bowl games in four years)
Stanford in Jim Harbaugh's first year: #51 nationally (#10 in the Pac 12) - 2.63 star avg.
-Current Win% at School: 0.580 (two bowl games in final two years)
Arizona in Mike Stoops' first year: #49 nationally (#9 in the Pac 12) - 2.38 star avg.
-Current Win% at School: 0451 (three bowl games in final four years)
Colorado in Mike MacIntyre's first year: #60 nationally (#10 in the Pac 12) - 2.53 star avg.
-Current Win% at School: 0.333

 

[BlackNGold]

MM had a choice to make when he came here - either bring in guys who he feels can get the most out of the players he has, or bring in guys who can go out and make a splash in recruiting. I don't believe you can have guys who do both. Those guys don't exist, IMO. Or if they do exist, they're not coming to this dumpster fire, so forget about it. MM chose to bring in guys who knew the system he wanted to run and could teach it effectively. The staff has an idea of the kind of player they want and are going after those guys. Apparently Hendo 223 thinks we can just go out and get better recruiters and concentrate in certain places and all will be well. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way.

I disagree. Bill McCartney had both. Ben Gregory could do it all...recruit, coach, and relate to the players. You could not be on coach Mac's staff if you could not recruit - Gary Barnett was a good recruiter and a good coach. Les Miles, Ron Vanderlinden, I could go on and on...there are guys that are good at both.

 

[BlackNGold]

I will point out that Saban and Meyer were known as tireless recruiters when they were assistant Coaches at Major colleges. I think many of the top coaches emphasize recruiting. Not every great recruiter is successful but I think they have a better chance than a poor recruiter.