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CU has rejoined the Big 12 and broken college football - talking out asses continues
- Thread starter InTheBuff
- Start date
University of Texas has seen your post and quickly responded.
And then they read it again, saw that I was talking about big teams and realised the following
We keep selling out Folsom Field with a Big 12 schedule, we need to expand period.
As being a South Carolina, I think we either know it or will know very soon.
CU is probably 7-10 years of consistent 80-100% capacity seasons, with and without Prime, AND being invited to The Show, away from pulling the trigger on expanding Folsom. The University isn’t going to make the same mistake CSU did and spend a couple hundred million on expansion and renovation based on a couple seasons of The Prime Effect, without a reasonably good idea that they will have a seat at the table and the support will be there without CP.
Waiting to invest in essential infrastructure until after you have grown to a point where what you have is costing you millions in unrealized revenue each year and because you fear that you will be left behind regardless & stuck with a financial albatross... that would be planning to fail and drastically increasing your likelihood of failure.
Welcome to the University of Colorado’s risk averse nature. In all seriousness, CU has never been on the verge of selling out and needing to expand prior to Prime, and I don’t think anyone can seriously view this current situation for CU as anything more than a serious aberration.
Your last sentence is a nice sentiment, but no amount of investment in physical infrastructure at this point is going make a difference in CU’s fate for a seat at the table. Maybe had leadership had some foresight about 10-15 years ago and we were now selling out a 70k seat stadium, things would be different, but at this point, our only real hope is that Prime gets us winning, makes CU a marquee brand with staying power, and sticks around for longer than 3-4 years.
Rick George is gone in a couple years. Will CP leave with him? Will he want to take on a larger role within the CU AD? Will CP be involved in the selection of RG’s successor? Stadium expansion is likely not on mind of RG right now.
So plan to fail. Being the voice of the project prevention team that finds reasons to do nothing is common in every workplace. It's nothing more than justification for laziness and failure.
What "was" should never trump what "is" and what's "possible".
This is all well and good corporate rah rah management-speak, but you've yet to actually bring anything tangible to the conversation that realistically counters what I've said, and I think it's because deep down, you agree with me but you're trying to talk yourself into what they should do, not necessarily what they will do.
Btw, I agree with you but I simply don't see it happening without a pretty good idea that the investment will have a positive ROI. Saliman drives the ship, so I'm hoping he bucks every trend this University has had w/r/t football the past 25 years.
They built the practice facility. They are doing a huge scoreboard upgrade. RG has said that Folsom upgrade to Balch/West is the next major project. I absolutely believe that the will is there to make this happen. Particularly with Phil retiring and the current makeup of the BOR + President Saliman. All the early returns on revenue, donations and applications are fantastic and support the argument for going big. I believe and it's not just naive wishful thinking and sunshine pumping.
Correct. Although I think the time frame is slightly shorter. For now it all seems to hinge on the presence of Deion Sanders as CU HC and very much seems to be a Deion Sanders and not a CU football thing. Once we sell our when he’s gone or get the feeling he’s committed to the job long term it’s time to talk.
The West Side redevelopment needs to happen regardless of that although the scale of the project may obviously be affected by what we’re discussing here.
The CC and IPF were decisions made a decade ago when the landscape of CFB was entirely different, so I think that's irrelevant to the discussion at hand. The scoreboard is an easy and noticeable upgrade that doesn't cost much, relatively.
I hope you're right, but you're probably looking at a ~$300m commitment to renovate the current infrastructure and redo Balch/West with expanded capacity to 65-70k. I just don't know if we have the donor base for something like that. We'll see, I guess.
Right. There's a massive difference between tearing down Balch and renovating existing stadium infrastructure and going full on stadium expansion, almost all of which would have to come on that West side, but would undoubtedly include major renovations to the entire stadium. Rick George can talk about Balch/West side being "next" all he wants, but I don't believe for a second that he has any inclination to take that project on before he retires, so a huge part of this will hinge on the next Athletic Director.
I think so much hinges the 2024 season. I think a highly successful season that sees CU in the 9+ win range, with Shedeur in New York and he and Travis both going in the top 5-10 in the draft, along with Prime agreeing to an extension will go a long way to solidifying CU as a national brand again.
I'm with Yak.
A 50k sold out stadium is better than a 65k stadium with empty seats.
I've been at most CU games for 10 years now, under four coaches. I think we had two sellouts in 2016 -- DS is the only coach who led CU fans to come to the games.
Show we can sustain it without him. Investing $100m's in increased capacity to have KD level attendance would be financially devastating.
A 50k sold out stadium is better than a 65k stadium with empty seats.
I've been at most CU games for 10 years now, under four coaches. I think we had two sellouts in 2016 -- DS is the only coach who led CU fans to come to the games.
Show we can sustain it without him. Investing $100m's in increased capacity to have KD level attendance would be financially devastating.
I think the biggest challenge right now is that interest rates are much higher than they were for the last project. That was like free money. Now the financing is likely to outpace inflation and actually cost real, compounding dollars for years to come. That's my biggest concern.
If it goes well I think you also need to think about what you do with the South side and possibly even the East side. And by that I mean possibly redoing the stands from the ground up.
I am not sure how much longer they can push off doing major work on the West side but I can see a scenario where they go a smaller option for that first but at the same time design it with future expansion in mind.
FWIW, as long as Prime is at Colorado, I truly believe we would sell out a 70k+ capacity stadium, but I just don't think the current landscape of college football allows for non-P2 programs to throw money at things like a stadium and hope that they can be good enough and market well enough to make it financially worth while. The time to do that was around 2010 or maybe 2014-15 when they built the Champions Center and IPF.
Which means they would need to secure some sizeable cash donations and I'm not confident we have that in our arsenal, short of Prime committing to the University, AD and program long term and leveraging his billionaire relationships.
Not just interest rates. I think general inflation will have pushed up prices significantly in general. Labour and material costs will both be affected.
One question that is relevant to this discussion is a comparison of the average revenue per seat in Boulder compared to other programs. If CU is averaging 10,000 less fans per game than school X but averaging $20.00 more per seat because X has lower ticket prices, lower seat license revenue, and discounts significant numbers of seats to maintain their numbers then even with a smaller stadium and fewer fans CU would be significantly ahead.
Problem with all this is that if one group of schools (B1G/SEC) is getting $100 million a year in TV money and our group (B12) is getting $40 million you can't make up the difference in stadium revenue and in fact the biggest of those schools are selling 70-100 thousand seats for a higher average than you are.
The big issue is going to come when the schools that have the power with the networks get around to deciding who they want in their club and who they don't.
The B1G and SEC will be gone because without the conference there is no contract to carry the conference schools that don't generate the revenue potential. Just because they have been together for close to a century doesn't mean that the big money schools want to keep on generating revenue for them.
Problem with all this is that if one group of schools (B1G/SEC) is getting $100 million a year in TV money and our group (B12) is getting $40 million you can't make up the difference in stadium revenue and in fact the biggest of those schools are selling 70-100 thousand seats for a higher average than you are.
The big issue is going to come when the schools that have the power with the networks get around to deciding who they want in their club and who they don't.
The B1G and SEC will be gone because without the conference there is no contract to carry the conference schools that don't generate the revenue potential. Just because they have been together for close to a century doesn't mean that the big money schools want to keep on generating revenue for them.
There are some other opportunities to generate stadium revenues such as concerts, etc. but realistically you are looking at an asset that has to pay for itself in six Saturdays per year.
Hard to make those number work.
I think we understand each other in principle.
Part of why I’m generally a little more reserved regarding HCDS than others is that I just can’t get a read on him and his mid or longer term plans. Does he see CU as something that can stay with for another five years? What’s his endgame? Does he even want to coach when Shedeur is in the NFL? He’s a fascinating dude and one of a kind on many ways.
I don’t see concerts as a serious option as Folsom will always play second fiddle to the stadium that’s in Denver. If you can fill Folsom you can probably also fill the “Denver stadium” and that stadium will in all likelihood always be more modern, bigger and have better transport links. That’s definitely the case now and I think it’s way more likely that the Denver stadium, whether that’s in the current location or somewhere else, will see major investment in the next five years than Folsom.
That's why I looked at options other than football as very limited. And the Boulder community doesn't seem very agreeable to using Folsom as a multi-use venue.
You really have to plan on paying for it with football. Hard to have any assurance in the current environment.
True. Though there are plenty of ways for the city to be obstructionist, non-cooperative or even retaliatory in other ways if CU didn't play the politics of working with the city instead of doing something like this unilaterally.
And have a larger market (Denver vs Boulder) to source from.
The distance seems small, but for many in CO is a BFD.
Stadium tours aren't anywhere as common as they used to be, also. Not a lot of acts can sell out over 60k.
I have to jump into this discussion with my proposal for how to save College Football, and it addresses so many of the issues that you all bring up, and I am not naive enough to dispute that this will never happen unless the schools have the balls to take charge and collectively force it to happen.
I was driving home tonight and kept hearing CFP this and CFP that, and realized that my plan is the CFP for the real CFP
Colleges, Fans, and Players fixing college football
The College Football Playoffs, the Networks, the Conferences, and the current Power 2 are all ****ing over the entire country and every college football program, even their own.
The Colleges and Universities need to take back the power and control of College Football
The Fans must demand that a cooperative solution is implemented that supports and solidifies their beloved programs
The Players deserve a system that pays them a solid and fair wage, but that cannot come from the college or university itself
My plan is the Collegiate and University Football League
It is a Hybrid of the Bundesliga, the Green Bay Packers Ownership Model, and the traditions of College Football.
I am with everyone who thinks there should be 64 to 70 Programs in the new College Football League
The CUFL is a Franchise/Program/Club model like the Bundesliga with everyone that will be in the league essentially forming a Professionally Operated Semi-Pro Athletic League of Programs. Each Program has an initial Valuation of $1 BILLION equal to the estimated value of many current programs, and the same value as some of the most valuable MLS Franchises.
These Franchises/Programs/Football Clubs will have the same Ownership Model of 51/25/24
The current College or University will own 51% of the new Entity
A Professional Equity Operator/Partner will be selected from applicants and will pay the School a fee of $250,000,000 to essentially RUN the Football Program in the most innovative, professional, ethical manner possible under the rules of the league
Finally, there will be a Fan Consortium that will own/invest/donate $240,000,000 for the benefit of the program to support, pay off debt, make improvements, and whatever is needed to make the facilities, infrastructure, and program the best it can be in that area.
All the new programs will then pay $10,000,000 into a new entity "College Football League" ($640,000,000) to create the infrastructure, offices, operations, and programming to run the league according to the Bylaws created collectively and to work with the Networks to craft the best possible Media deal for the entire group of teams, likely in the range of $100,000,000+ PER SCHOOL
Additionally, the current CFP will be put into the CFL as essentially its playoffs and Super Bowl
Each Program will be required to pay around $80 MILLION PER YEAR to the School for the purpose of running the Olympic Sports on campus, and allowing them to pay their players via scholarships or stipends.
The players in the CUFL are not going to be traditional College Students, unless they want to be. CUFL Players will be required to take Core Sports Business classes/lessons and will hone their skills in Public Speaking, Finance, Media, Business, Health, Wellness, Nutrition, etc... Approximately 9 Credit Hours per semester, and if they want a full college degree, they can also do that
The CUFL will have a Roster Size for all teams of 85 players and a Salary Structure for the Players that I estimate could be about $29 Million or about $285,000 per player on average. All Players shall have 2-year Contracts, that are renewable with incentives, or they can transfer after two years. Most top players will go to the NFL after two seasons anyway, and there is NO Redshirting, but Medical Year exemptions are possible.
Potential Salary Scale using a base and a bonus
85 Player Roster all with a scholarship ($50k academic stipend and base Salary of $150 k each = $17,000,000
Bonus/Ladder structure Potential - Depth Chart determines Bonus
AVERAGE [$135,000]
I will post again about how this solves 99% of the problems
GO AHEAD AND CHEW ME UP BOYS
.
I was driving home tonight and kept hearing CFP this and CFP that, and realized that my plan is the CFP for the real CFP
Colleges, Fans, and Players fixing college football
The College Football Playoffs, the Networks, the Conferences, and the current Power 2 are all ****ing over the entire country and every college football program, even their own.
The Colleges and Universities need to take back the power and control of College Football
The Fans must demand that a cooperative solution is implemented that supports and solidifies their beloved programs
The Players deserve a system that pays them a solid and fair wage, but that cannot come from the college or university itself
My plan is the Collegiate and University Football League
It is a Hybrid of the Bundesliga, the Green Bay Packers Ownership Model, and the traditions of College Football.
I am with everyone who thinks there should be 64 to 70 Programs in the new College Football League
The CUFL is a Franchise/Program/Club model like the Bundesliga with everyone that will be in the league essentially forming a Professionally Operated Semi-Pro Athletic League of Programs. Each Program has an initial Valuation of $1 BILLION equal to the estimated value of many current programs, and the same value as some of the most valuable MLS Franchises.
These Franchises/Programs/Football Clubs will have the same Ownership Model of 51/25/24
The current College or University will own 51% of the new Entity
A Professional Equity Operator/Partner will be selected from applicants and will pay the School a fee of $250,000,000 to essentially RUN the Football Program in the most innovative, professional, ethical manner possible under the rules of the league
Finally, there will be a Fan Consortium that will own/invest/donate $240,000,000 for the benefit of the program to support, pay off debt, make improvements, and whatever is needed to make the facilities, infrastructure, and program the best it can be in that area.
All the new programs will then pay $10,000,000 into a new entity "College Football League" ($640,000,000) to create the infrastructure, offices, operations, and programming to run the league according to the Bylaws created collectively and to work with the Networks to craft the best possible Media deal for the entire group of teams, likely in the range of $100,000,000+ PER SCHOOL
Additionally, the current CFP will be put into the CFL as essentially its playoffs and Super Bowl
Each Program will be required to pay around $80 MILLION PER YEAR to the School for the purpose of running the Olympic Sports on campus, and allowing them to pay their players via scholarships or stipends.
The players in the CUFL are not going to be traditional College Students, unless they want to be. CUFL Players will be required to take Core Sports Business classes/lessons and will hone their skills in Public Speaking, Finance, Media, Business, Health, Wellness, Nutrition, etc... Approximately 9 Credit Hours per semester, and if they want a full college degree, they can also do that
The CUFL will have a Roster Size for all teams of 85 players and a Salary Structure for the Players that I estimate could be about $29 Million or about $285,000 per player on average. All Players shall have 2-year Contracts, that are renewable with incentives, or they can transfer after two years. Most top players will go to the NFL after two seasons anyway, and there is NO Redshirting, but Medical Year exemptions are possible.
Potential Salary Scale using a base and a bonus
85 Player Roster all with a scholarship ($50k academic stipend and base Salary of $150 k each = $17,000,000
Bonus/Ladder structure Potential - Depth Chart determines Bonus
- [4] QB = $500k and down $1.1 M
- [16] OL = $250k and down $2.4 M
- [13] Safety and CB = $225k and down $2.275 M
- [11] Edge and LB = $200k and down $1.65 M
- [16] DL = $175k and down $2.0 M
- [13] WR = $150k and down $1.3 M
- [4] TE = $125k and down $300 K
- [5] RB = $125k and down $375 K
- [3] Kickers = $75k and down $75 K
AVERAGE [$135,000]
I will post again about how this solves 99% of the problems
GO AHEAD AND CHEW ME UP BOYS
.
BerkeleyBuff
Well-Known Member
And investing in enormous infrastructure projects before there is any real indication they're needed (indeed, when there are many decades of indication that they are not) and thereby sinking your department into debt that won't be repaid unless suddenly your program grows well beyond its historical norm AND sustains that interest over the long haul... Well, that is certainly planning to fail in a completely different way, one where you are crippled by debt that inhibits you from making other much needed, less costly, and more pertinent investments.
If you assume it's unnecessary when you have a revenue gap that can be improved considerably with increased gameday revenue and you are also lacking in the hallmarks of what constitutes a top tier program that commands a seat at the table, sure. If that's where you're coming from, just give up on being more than Iowa State for the entire future of CU football.
Honestly I think it would be wise for us to have a better idea of how the landscape of college football will be changed before we invest in a massive expansion. Adding 5,000 or so seats to the West side is no big deal, but anything more than that would require an investment that might very well prove to be unwarranted.