Does Greg Brown get too much of a free pass?

[MtnBuff]

I've got to call this post out. This is absolutely ridiculous. Sure, critique Brown's less-than-stellar recruiting, but he is a solid coach...I don't know where to begin with this post - it's almost entirely... ... ...dumb.

This is absolutely correct. Every staff is going to have guys who are better recruiters than position coaches and guys who are better coaches than recruiters, nature of the business. You rarely find a guy who is outstanding at both.

Brown is a very respected position coach and we are lucky to have him. A lot of the reason he is here is due to wanting to have his wife and kids in a stable location close to extended family. If this were not the case he could have jobs at a lot of schools that pay better than CU or more likely be in the NFL making a lot more money.

I am certain that Embree is aware of the relative strengths and weaknesses of his staff and will get Brown some assistance in recruiting DBs just as he will provide some extra help coaching for those who are stronger recruiters than position coaches.

Bottom line is how his guys perform on the field. Brown's DBs in the past have been solid wherever he is at, I don't expect this to change. You don't win championships on the recruiting sites, if you did Texas and Notre Dame would need new buildings to hold the trophies.

On the other hand seeing what Brown has done with the guys he has had I would love to see what he could do with an outstanding talent like Yuri Wright.

 

[Duff Man]

This is absolutely correct. Every staff is going to have guys who are better recruiters than position coaches and guys who are better coaches than recruiters, nature of the business. You rarely find a guy who is outstanding at both.

Brown is a very respected position coach and we are lucky to have him. A lot of the reason he is here is due to wanting to have his wife and kids in a stable location close to extended family. If this were not the case he could have jobs at a lot of schools that pay better than CU or more likely be in the NFL making a lot more money.

I am certain that Embree is aware of the relative strengths and weaknesses of his staff and will get Brown some assistance in recruiting DBs just as he will provide some extra help coaching for those who are stronger recruiters than position coaches.

Bottom line is how his guys perform on the field. Brown's DBs in the past have been solid wherever he is at, I don't expect this to change. You don't win championships on the recruiting sites, if you did Texas and Notre Dame would need new buildings to hold the trophies.

On the other hand seeing what Brown has done with the guys he has had I would love to see what he could do with an outstanding talent like Yuri Wright.

He may be a respected coach, but I think you exaggerate how many opportunities he would have if he was not at CU, especially in his current capacities as Defensive Coordinator/Defensive Backs coach.

And you gotta be kidding with the "you don't win championships on the recruiting sites" comment, especially bringing Texas into the argument.

You do not win championships with mediocre to bad recruiting.

 

[MtnBuff]

He may be a respected coach, but I think you exaggerate how many opportunities he would have if he was not at CU, especially in his current capacities as Defensive Coordinator/Defensive Backs coach.

And you gotta be kidding with the "you don't win championships on the recruiting sites" comment, especially bringing Texas into the argument.

You do not win championships with mediocre to bad recruiting.

You win with a combination of talent and coaching, one without the other leads to dissapointment. I don't say you don't need talent, guys have to have the ability to play at the top level if you want to win. At the same time recruiting championships don't neccessarily mean NC's. Texas was top 5 for at least six years in a row and only won one championship riding Vince Young. Notre Dame has been consistently in the top 10 in recruiting for the past decade and hasn't won squat.

Brown is very respected and made significantly more with the Saints than he does with the Buffs, he has turned down other jobs at higher profile schools (that normally pay assistants more money than CU.) He was officially the co-coordinator at Arizona before he returned to CU so it isn't a stretch to think that he could or would have other coordinator opportunities.

Don't get me wrong, I would prefer to see our recriting of DBs pick up significantly. I just think that if all we have to criticize is Greg Brown we are either lucky or stupid right now. He isn't a Bienemy on the recruiting trail, never will be. What matters is how his guys perform on the field, past history has said we should expect a pretty decent showing. To discuss the job he is doing now before this staff has even coached ONE GAME ON THE FIELD is beyond ridiculous.

 

[Duff Man]

You win with a combination of talent and coaching, one without the other leads to dissapointment. I don't say you don't need talent, guys have to have the ability to play at the top level if you want to win. At the same time recruiting championships don't neccessarily mean NC's. Texas was top 5 for at least six years in a row and only won one championship riding Vince Young. Notre Dame has been consistently in the top 10 in recruiting for the past decade and hasn't won squat.

Brown is very respected and made significantly more with the Saints than he does with the Buffs, he has turned down other jobs at higher profile schools (that normally pay assistants more money than CU.) He was officially the co-coordinator at Arizona before he returned to CU so it isn't a stretch to think that he could or would have other coordinator opportunities.

Don't get me wrong, I would prefer to see our recriting of DBs pick up significantly. I just think that if all we have to criticize is Greg Brown we are either lucky or stupid right now. He isn't a Bienemy on the recruiting trail, never will be. What matters is how his guys perform on the field, past history has said we should expect a pretty decent showing. To discuss the job he is doing now before this staff has even coached ONE GAME ON THE FIELD is beyond ridiculous.

I think you would be surprised if you checked the rankings for Texas several of the years between 2002 and 2011 (as far back as Rivals goes).

He was a co-coordinator at Arizona, under a defensive-minded control freak. How much power did he actually have? I honestly do not know, but he appears to have all the power at CU now. Not sure he gets that opportunity at any other school.

I do not expect Brown to ever be Bieniemy on the recruiting trail, but I do expect him to do more than he has over the last several years. I agree that what matters is on-field play, which is where I think my concern lies. We have had some playmakers in his time at CU under Hawkins, but we have yet to have a complete secondary. The pass defense has not been very good in several games. Some of that may be scheme, but the talent after the 2006 class does not appear to be there either.

As far as critiquing his job performance before this staff has "even coach ONE GAME ON THE FIELD" being beyond ridiculous, I would argue Brown does not deserve the same leeway the rest of the staff gets right now. He coached here for five years and the DBs in the program right now are "his guys". He helped get them here and he evaluated them as prospects. If he cannot get them to play up to a certain standard, that is on him. The only other coach on the staff that can say the same thing is Cabral.

 

[buffsyko]

Good DB coach, recruiting meh.

 

[Darth Snow]

I think you would be surprised if you checked the rankings for Texas several of the years between 2002 and 2011 (as far back as Rivals goes).

He was a co-coordinator at Arizona, under a defensive-minded control freak. How much power did he actually have? I honestly do not know, but he appears to have all the power at CU now. Not sure he gets that opportunity at any other school.

I do not expect Brown to ever be Bieniemy on the recruiting trail, but I do expect him to do more than he has over the last several years. I agree that what matters is on-field play, which is where I think my concern lies. We have had some playmakers in his time at CU under Hawkins, but we have yet to have a complete secondary. The pass defense has not been very good in several games. Some of that may be scheme, but the talent after the 2006 class does not appear to be there either.

As far as critiquing his job performance before this staff has "even coach ONE GAME ON THE FIELD" being beyond ridiculous, I would argue Brown does not deserve the same leeway the rest of the staff gets right now. He coached here for five years and the DBs in the program right now are "his guys". He helped get them here and he evaluated them as prospects. If he cannot get them to play up to a certain standard, that is on him. The only other coach on the staff that can say the same thing is Cabral.

fif what you mean to say.

 

[jahbrahakala]

Speaking of

Is Parker Orms 2010?

Is Parker Orms fast enough to play CB. I know he's quick enough and heady and see him as more of a safety. Can someone knowledgable make the case that he'll be better suited to CB and capable?

 

[SBG]

Our secondary was always suspect under him, but I don't think because of our CBs, but rather our safety play (when was the last time we had an elite safety?) and Dan Hawkins' lets rush 3 DL in 3rd and 12 defense. Or Dan Hawkins' cover 0 (in the college game??). I want an elite safety more so than an elite CB prospect this round, but I doubt that's going to happen.

 

[Burrito]

Is Parker Orms fast enough to play CB. I know he's quick enough and heady and see him as more of a safety. Can someone knowledgable make the case that he'll be better suited to CB and capable?

First, I am not knowledgeable, but I have the same question. His 09' scout profile says he runs a 4.4 40. My general impression is that he's got a nose for the ball. Anyone?

Note: the recruit profile threads have improved dramatically since '09. Nice work allbuffs junta.

 

[Darth Snow]

First, I am not knowledgeable, but I have the same question. His 09' scout profile says he runs a 4.4 40. My general impression is that he's got a nose for the ball. Anyone?

Note: the recruit profile threads have improved dramatically since '09. Nice work allbuffs junta.

the question on orms is if he has the hips to be a #1 CB. That and height. We don't know yet.

 

[Buffnik]

Is Parker Orms fast enough to play CB. I know he's quick enough and heady and see him as more of a safety. Can someone knowledgable make the case that he'll be better suited to CB and capable?

Good chance we'll find out. He's fast enough and quick enough. Height isn't too bade for a corner.

Where I'm at with the idea of Orms being one of our starting corners is that he's the one guy I would trust. He will always be where he's supposed to be. He will make some plays since he's a great tackler and also has a nose for the ball. I think there's a chance that he'd get overwhelmed by WRs like the ones Georgia had last year, but so would a lot of guys. I'd actually feel more comfortable about things if I knew he was starting on one side at the beginning of the season.

 

[bigbang]

Parker Orms hopefully will have an injury free season. 2 years in a row now. I still believe he is better on onfense, maybe play the Percy Harvin role on offense. Move him to the back field have him catch the ball out of the backfield, his athletic ability is above average.

 

[MtnBuff]

If the other guys don't step up he may be forced to play corner but I think his most valuable position for us is still the nickel/free safety spot. He is a good but not great athlete, good enough to match up against slot recievers and/or backs coming out of the backfield but I'm not sure I want him on an island a lot with big, fast guys downfield. Playing inside also takes advantage of his intelligence and football sense and lets him be involved in run defense as well.

About the only positive about his injury last year was that it happened early enough in the season to not cost him a year of eligibility and gave him the full year the rehab the injury.

 

[White_Rabbit]

I'm glad we got Brown back, but I kind of wish we made room for a younger guy to coach DBs.

 

[EastCoastBuff]

Repeatedly you hear the argument that Ebree has brought in a staff that "was built to recruit". To some extent, that's true; Embo, Bieniemy, Cabral, Tuiasosopo, and Kennedy have proven reps in recruiting, and a network of success to build upon. Marshall's claim to fame is his coaching, as is Brookhart's, not necessarily recruiting, and it may be showing in our first real incoming class with them. Greg Brown, a great coach of players, received a lot of criticism for his recruiting under Hawkins, but the jury's still out on him now -- but if he pulls in Yuri with a close and comfortable outreach, it'll be hard to knock him. As for Kanavis McGhee, he brings neither a record of recruiting nor proven D-1 coaching to the table, just a history of being a great Buff, an inner circle guy with JE and EB, and some knowledge of the fertile Houston/Louisiana talent goldmine; but it's hard to knock him, because who knows, he could end up being lights out.

 

[Burrito]

Repeatedly you hear the argument that Ebree has brought in a staff that "was built to recruit". To some extent, that's true; Embo, Bieniemy, Cabral, Tuiasosopo, and Kennedy have proven reps in recruiting, and a network of success to build upon. Marshall's claim to fame is his coaching, as is Brookhart's, not necessarily recruiting, and it may be showing in our first real incoming class with them. Greg Brown, a great coach of players, received a lot of criticism for his recruiting under Hawkins, but the jury's still out on him now -- but if he pulls in Yuri with a close and comfortable outreach, it'll be hard to knock him. As for Kanavis McGhee, he brings neither a record of recruiting nor proven D-1 coaching to the table, just a history of being a great Buff, an inner circle guy with JE and EB, and some knowledge of the fertile Houston/Louisiana talent goldmine; but it's hard to knock him, because who knows, he could end up being lights out.

What's your point?

 

[Buffnik]

Repeatedly you hear the argument that Ebree has brought in a staff that "was built to recruit". To some extent, that's true; Embo, Bieniemy, Cabral, Tuiasosopo, and Kennedy have proven reps in recruiting, and a network of success to build upon. Marshall's claim to fame is his coaching, as is Brookhart's, not necessarily recruiting, and it may be showing in our first real incoming class with them. Greg Brown, a great coach of players, received a lot of criticism for his recruiting under Hawkins, but the jury's still out on him now -- but if he pulls in Yuri with a close and comfortable outreach, it'll be hard to knock him. As for Kanavis McGhee, he brings neither a record of recruiting nor proven D-1 coaching to the table, just a history of being a great Buff, an inner circle guy with JE and EB, and some knowledge of the fertile Houston/Louisiana talent goldmine; but it's hard to knock him, because who knows, he could end up being lights out.

Nice summation. I think you can add Scherer to the "here for coaching more than recruiting" list.

It's fine with me, too. It's a good balance on the staff. Embree's #1 requirement was that his staff all had to be great coaches on the field. He made sure he filled the staff with guys he respected from that standpoint, then tried to balance it with some great X's and O's guys & some great recruiters. You're rarely going to find someone who is all three, so he made sure everyone could coach and then made the rest a team effort.

P.S. I think EB is probably the only guy who is all three. Very talented coach.

 

[buffaholic]

N

P.S. I think EB is probably the only guy who is all three. Very talented coach.

I think we are getting ahead of ourselves annoiting him with that title. He's yet to prove that he's more than a great recruiter and a great RB coach. As an offensive coordinator, I'm hopeful, but not ready to make that judgement.

 

[buffaholic]

About the only positive about his injury last year was that it happened early enough in the season to not cost him a year of eligibility and gave him the full year the rehab the injury.

Correction, Parker Orms did lose a full year of eligibility. He redshirted in 2009 and will not get 2010 back. If he get's hurt again, he would be eligible for a medical RS. As it stands now, he is a Sophomore with 3 to play 3. If he had not redshirted already, he could have converted last year into a RS year (as did Ryan Miller a few years back).

 

[Lt.Col.FrankSlade]

Correction, Parker Orms did lose a full year of eligibility. He redshirted in 2009 and will not get 2010 back. If he get's hurt again, he would be eligible for a medical RS. As it stands now, he is a Sophomore with 3 to play 3. If he had not redshirted already, he could have converted last year into a RS year (as did Ryan Miller a few years back).

Actually - once you use a redshirt, you don't get another one, medical or not.

He can petition the NCAA for a 6th season of eligibility - but you only get one redshirt.

The NCAA allows a student athlete 4 years of eligibility, and allows 5 years from the date of initial enrollment for them to be used. Parker Orms redshirted in 2009. He had 4 years of eligibility remaining. The only way he gets more eligibility at this point is to petition the NCAA for it.

 

[Buffnik]

Yeah. Parker is a soph.

Up to the NCAA whether he gets a 6th year medical hardship waiver. By the strict rule, he shouldn't be eligible for it. But sometimes these things can work out in the player's favor.

 

[buffaholic]

Actually - once you use a redshirt, you don't get another one, medical or not.

He can petition the NCAA for a 6th season of eligibility - but you only get one redshirt.

The NCAA allows a student athlete 4 years of eligibility, and allows 5 years from the date of initial enrollment for them to be used. Parker Orms redshirted in 2009. He had 4 years of eligibility remaining. The only way he gets more eligibility at this point is to petition the NCAA for it.

I think that's exactly what I said. I believe that when a player misses 2 years due to injury and petitions and is granted a 6th year of eligibility, this is commonly called being awarded a "Medical Redshirt" (for one of the lost seasons). It may not be technically a redshirt season, but this is commonly called this.

Either way, Parker lost a season of eligibility last year because he had already used up his redshirt. Let's hope he never misses another season so we don't have to worry about him petitioning for an extra year.

 

[buffalofart]

Ashley Ambrose did a great job coaching the DBs. He was respected and had NFL playing experience which helped in recruiting. I would have hoped he would be retained and a real DC put in place. I think this will be a sore spot this year on D schemes and likely recruiting in the defensive backfield.

 

[Buffnik]

Ashley Ambrose did a great job coaching the DBs. He was respected and had NFL playing experience which helped in recruiting. I would have hoped he would be retained and a real DC put in place. I think this will be a sore spot this year on D schemes and likely recruiting in the defensive backfield.

Yeah. It was his first coaching job and he coached the secondary to a #110 ranking out of 120 teams despite having two starting corners who were NFL draft picks. And he had exactly zero DBs verbaled to CU at any time before he was let go. Yeah. I'm really missing him. Let's rip on Brownie, who is so respected in coaching circles that a lot of other coaches teach their DBs by using film of the stuff the guy is running.

 

[Darth Snow]

Ashley Ambrose did a great job coaching the DBs. He was respected and had NFL playing experience which helped in recruiting. I would have hoped he would be retained and a real DC put in place. I think this will be a sore spot this year on D schemes and likely recruiting in the defensive backfield.

Please support with evidence

 

[White_Rabbit]

Wrong font, nik?

 

[Buffnik]

Wrong font, nik?

Hard to tell without the sarcasm font? :lol:

 

[White_Rabbit]

Seriously though, I'd like to have kept Ambrose with Brown as DC and overlooking Ambrose. But yeah, can't say he had a great year without Brown around keeping him in check.

 

[Burrito]

Ashley Ambrose did a great job coaching the DBs. He was respected and had NFL playing experience which helped in recruiting. I would have hoped he would be retained and a real DC put in place. I think this will be a sore spot this year on D schemes and likely recruiting in the defensive backfield.

Are you high?

 

[MtnBuff]

It's hard to tell how good a coach and/or recruiter Ambrose will be eventually. He did have to deal with Hawkins disease while he was here so who knows what he is actually capable of. Brown's recruiting at CU may have suffered from some of the same issue.

I do know that Brown knows how to coach DBs. He has made guys better players at CU, at Arizona, and in the pros. If we are already bitching about Brown being on the staff we have serious need of a life or at least of some real football.