#Fire Coach Dorrell

[Not Sure]

Y’all are arguing about an intentionally obscure and arcane accounting practice which ultimately means little.

If the school wants to win it can win. All it takes is a leader to make it happen. Hopefully Big Salmon is the guy to do it. I’m skeptical, but hopeful

I agree that it means little. If you’re going to claim that the AD doesn’t receive admin support because it is reckless and wasteful with its money, then it helps to be able to show that no, they aren’t reckless and wasteful with their money. Sure, KDs contract raises some questions, but overall the department operates within its means pretty effectively.

 

[dio]

It’s a benchmark by which we are compared to our peers. Why do we care about our standing compared to our peers? Well, that’s a different question I suppose.

I guess then I'm curious about the different question

I just think Higher Education is changing so rapidly that these rankings don't really mean much for where CU is at. Maybe if we were a top 30 school in the rankings or something

 

[The Alabaster Yak]

Y’all are arguing about an intentionally obscure and arcane accounting practice which ultimately means little.

If the school wants to win it can win. All it takes is a leader to make it happen. Hopefully Big Salmon is the guy to do it. I’m skeptical, but hopeful

It doesn't ultimately mean little, though. If Karl Dorrell and/or RG can't be fired simply because the Athletic Department is broke and the school refuses to help, it's a big ****ing deal and the most pressing issue facing the football program from ever being relevant again.

The school has to make a decision about whether or not they want a competent football program that serves as it's primary marketing tool, and then support it with everything they have, or they need to close it down (hint: this won't happen because they receive a ton of money from the AD for tuition and football is the only way the rest of the sports are able to exist, save for MBB).

 

[Not Sure]

I guess then I'm curious about the different question

I just think Higher Education is changing so rapidly that these rankings don't really mean much for where CU is at. Maybe if we were a top 30 school in the rankings or something

I believe being a top 100 school still has some merit. We once were a top 100 school. We aren’t anymore. We have been passed by schools like Auburn, Arizona, ASU, Buffalo, UC Riverside and Howard. Do we care about that? I think it matters for things like funding and attracting quality faculty.

 

[LesGrossman]

It doesn't ultimately mean little, though. If Karl Dorrell and/or RG can't be fired simply because the Athletic Department is broke and the school refuses to help, it's a big ****ing deal and the most pressing issue facing the football program from ever being relevant again.

The school has to make a decision about whether or not they want a competent football program that serves as it's primary marketing tool, and then support it with everything they have, or they need to close it down (hint: this won't happen because they receive a ton of money from the AD for tuition and football is the only way the rest of the sports are able to exist, save for MBB).

I’m agreeing with you when I say the accounting means little. I wasn’t clear on that. My point is that “separate entity” distinction isn’t a monolith like manhattan seems to be claiming.

It’s a part of the university in every way except this flimsy self imposed excuse which is nothing more than an accounting designation

 

[skibum]

I have actually. I’ve explained that the Athletic Department has routinely mismanaged funds and has proven to be a poor investment due to their regular need for school bailouts and low ROI. You’re saying that the school ought to blindly support an entity that’s proven to be a horrible steward of its resources and should grant independence to a party that hasn’t earned it.

I think he's saying that the AD should not be independent, and viewing it as independent from the rest of the university is actually part of the problem.

I will say that I do tend to think that the school has gone way too far down a road of treating various departments as "independent" entities with their own independent P&L statements, and that problem extends well beyond athletics. Why was the J school closed? Because viewed as an independent entity, it didn't turn enough of a "profit."

Even some of the academic prestige of the schools is in a very precarious place because of this idea of every group operating independently and trying to get to a "profitable" or at "break even" place. You can get to breakeven by increasing revenue or decreasing costs, so... well, several of the nobel prizes claims were won by guys who were getting their paychecks from the federal government, not from CU (and no, not the circuitous "USFG giving grant to CU that then used money to pay professor," nope, those guys were de facto and de jure direct USFG employees). Having your most valuable employees not actually be employed by you seems, well, not ideal.

Well run organizations (including large businesses) know that some units are more profitable than others and other units will rarely, if ever, turn a profit, but still they all contribute something to the success of the entire enterprise. When they are broken down into independent silos and evaluated solely on a bottom line basis, it rarely turns out well for the whole. That process can be a useful management exercise to help better see the big picture, but like all useful management exercises, when it's taken too far and for too long it ends up causing more harm than good.

@dio is right about knocking down walls between organizations, but how about starting on the Boulder campus and move out from there? None of the schools and departments could succeed on their own, so start tying all of the successes and failures together - because in the public's mind, they already are.

 

[PAHIBuff]

Recently, CU put out a posting on social media celebrating the fact that they came in at #45 on the recent US news rankings for public universities. Sounds great, right? Not so fast my friend - look a little closer and you’ll see that CU’s overall ranking has dropped from 88 (including private schools) to 103 in just seven years. I tried to see what the public school rankings were over the same period, but that’s not easily found. I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that our ranking among public Universities has also dropped over that same time period.
We tend to view the school through the lens of the athletic department and specifically the football program, but the entire school is suffering under current leadership.

I was curious about this so I just visited the USNWR website for public university rankings. (There's a separate list for all universities, too). In the public list CU is tied at #42 with Auburn, New Jersey Institute of Technology, Univ of Cal-Merced, Univ of Illinois-Chicago, and South Florida. I have no idea what criteria is used for this kind of stuff and how many grains of salt it's worth, but there you have it. CU used to be more highly regarded in the past than it is now, lists or no lists.

 

[LesGrossman]

CU is essentially doing the public equivalent of a company cutting off its marketing and R&D departments because they don’t specifically return the direct ROI of the primary product.

You should improve these departments and establish a cohesive strategy…. Not say “oh, well we didn’t invent the new groundbreaking tech this year so let’s stop innovating all together”

 

[Not Sure]

I was curious about this so I just visited the USNWR website for public university rankings. (There's a separate list for all universities, too). In the public list CU is tied at #42 with Auburn, New Jersey Institute of Technology, Univ of Cal-Merced, Univ of Illinois-Chicago, and South Florida. I have no idea what criteria is used for this kind of stuff and how many grains of salt it's worth, but there you have it. CU used to be more highly regarded in the past than it is now, lists or no lists.

I’m more interested in where we were ranked 5 years ago compared to our ranking today. Are we moving up the rankings or down? I suspect we are moving down.

 

[LesGrossman]

Also FWIW, they really need to make some good commercials for the school during these football games (see: marketing opportunities)

A poorly edited mashup of a kid wearing a mask playing the tuba under a fluorescent light and Phil sitting on the corner of his desk is less than inspiring imo

 

[dio]

I believe being a top 100 school still has some merit. We once were a top 100 school. We aren’t anymore. We have been passed by schools like Auburn, Arizona, ASU, Buffalo, UC Riverside and Howard. Do we care about that? I think it matters for things like funding and attracting quality faculty.

Yeah - i might be overly cynical or flippant so I can see the importance.

 

[Hank]

I’m more interested in where we were ranked 5 years ago compared to our ranking today. Are we moving up the rankings or down? I suspect we are moving down.

This is all I could find. I suspect the decline is even more significant if you go back twenty years.

University of Colorado Boulder Ranking 2022: Latest National and World Ranking 2022, 2021 & 2020

Know national & world ranking of University of Colorado Boulder @ Study Abroad Shiksha. Download Brochure & Check all latest Ranks, Fees & Placement details of University of Colorado Boulder

studyabroad.shiksha.com

 

[HighlandsBuff]

Dorrell makes me so mad.

Hiring Hawk made sense at the time.

Joining the Pac made sense at the time.

Hell, hiring MacIntyre was sensible at the time.

Dorrell didn't make sense from day one and to absolutely no one's surprise, and it hasn't worked.

 

[leftybuff]

Dorrell makes me so mad.

Hiring Hawk made sense at the time.

Joining the Pac made sense at the time.

Hell, hiring MacIntyre was sensible at the time.

Dorrell didn't make sense from day one and to absolutely no one's surprise, and it hasn't worked.

You have failed to consider the benefits of your new HC already having a house in Boulder.

 

[Hank]

World University Rankings

 

[leftybuff]

World University Rankings

View attachment 54204

CU is still ahead of DeVry and Phoenix University, right?

 

[Hank]

As my nephew (a HS senior and a very good student) just said on Saturday - "Boulder is so cool but they just suck at everything "

 

[J.R. Ewing]

This is all I could find. I suspect the decline is even more significant if you go back twenty years.

University of Colorado Boulder Ranking 2022: Latest National and World Ranking 2022, 2021 & 2020

Know national & world ranking of University of Colorado Boulder @ Study Abroad Shiksha. Download Brochure & Check all latest Ranks, Fees & Placement details of University of Colorado Boulder

studyabroad.shiksha.com

Is there any significant achievement Phil can help his hat on? Athletics: Down. Academic Rankings: Down. Applications: Down. Tuition: Waaay Up.

I mean I'm sure there's some sort of campus recycling drive he can point to or something.

 

[Not Sure]

World University Rankings

View attachment 54204

That’s approximately the timeline of Phil DiStefano’s tenure as chancellor of CU-Boulder.

The man done more damage to the CU brand than anybody I can think of and seemingly nobody is holding him accountable.

 

[Hank]

In retrospect, maybe it was a bad idea to have a political zealot run the University.

 

[manhattanbuff]

Yes, I'm saying the school should support IT'S OWN ENTITY (not just some separate, unrelated entity), because you know, the University of Colorado Athletic Department is part of the University of Colorado. You are saying that because the AD has mismanaged funds and made poor hires (which is a cost of doing business in major college athletics) in the past, the school should stop supporting it going forward. Cut off it's nose to spite it's own face is your perspective, which makes no sense.

You have a serious comprehension problem when you get angry. I’ve never said the University should butt out of Athletic Department business out of spite. Quite the opposite. I want a highly functioning independent Athletic Department.

You can’t have an independent Athletic Department if it is financially dependent on the University’s academic endowment. Sure, it is the cost of business to hire and fire coaches. You do not see successful major programs reaching into their endowments to bail out Athletic Departments every semi-decade. Why? Because the succesful programs know how to run their operation and fundraise from boosters to get their money. They insulate themselves from larger scrutiny by earning the right to make things right for themselves with their own, independently harnessed budgets.

Tell me: when was the last time a successful major program had its University’s endowment bailout their Athletic Department from decades of mismanagement? You don’t see it. Why? Because those Athletic Departments have not earned their independence.

 

[skibum]

I mean I'm sure there's some sort of campus recycling drive he can point to or something.

Pretty sure even some school like Montana State would beat us out on that.

That's the point a few of us have been making for a long time: Relative to its peers, CU Boulder has gotten worse on every single metric since Phil became the chancellor. He's one of those guys that failed up their whole career and then somehow rode that failure to retirement.

Spoiler: Wait for it

****ing boomer.

 

[Go Buffs]

Most importantly, we have dropped significantly in the Top Party school category, at least according to this one….

2025 Top Party Schools in America

Explore the Top 100 Party Schools in America.

www.niche.com

 

[ahoelsken]

Dorrell makes me so mad.

Hiring Hawk made sense at the time.

Joining the Pac made sense at the time.

Hell, hiring MacIntyre was sensible at the time.

Dorrell didn't make sense from day one and to absolutely no one's surprise, and it hasn't worked.

MacIntyre did what he was hired to do-get this thing out of the gutter.

We're likely going to need another guy like him.

 

[Not Sure]

In retrospect, maybe it was a bad idea to have a political zealot run the University.

Are you referring to Hank Brown? I think he was the right guy at the time and he left when the time was right. CU needed somebody with political clout to twist some legislative arms. That done, he rode off into the sunset. I wouldn’t put this slide on his shoulders. In fact, I think it could have been much worse without him.

If you’re referring to Kennedy, then yeah, spot on. Worthless in almost every way imaginable.

 

[Hank]

That’s approximately the timeline of Phil DiStefano’s tenure as chancellor of CU-Boulder.

The man done more damage to the CU brand than anybody I can think of and seemingly nobody is holding him accountable.

I also suspect that most academics would point to Benson instead of DiStefano. With that said, I look forward to Phil's departure.

 

[Da Lama]

Recently, CU put out a posting on social media celebrating the fact that they came in at #45 on the recent US news rankings for public universities. Sounds great, right? Not so fast my friend - look a little closer and you’ll see that CU’s overall ranking has dropped from 88 (including private schools) to 103 in just seven years. I tried to see what the public school rankings were over the same period, but that’s not easily found. I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that our ranking among public Universities has also dropped over that same time period.
We tend to view the school through the lens of the athletic department and specifically the football program, but the entire school is suffering under current leadership.

We're #42 among public schools (tied with UI-Chicago and fvcking U of South Florida) and #97 nationally. Among public schools we are ranked below roughly 70% of the nation's predominant state public schools including such highly recognized and academically regarded schools as UC Merced, U of Delaware, SUNY Binghamton, Clemson, Texas A&M, and UC Davis (Hawk gets the last laugh). Harvahd of the West, baby!

 

[manhattanbuff]

I think he's saying that the AD should not be independent, and viewing it as independent from the rest of the university is actually part of the problem.

I will say that I do tend to think that the school has gone way too far down a road of treating various departments as "independent" entities with their own independent P&L statements, and that problem extends well beyond athletics. Why was the J school closed? Because viewed as an independent entity, it didn't turn enough of a "profit."

Even some of the academic prestige of the schools is in a very precarious place because of this idea of every group operating independently and trying to get to a "profitable" or at "break even" place. You can get to breakeven by increasing revenue or decreasing costs, so... well, several of the nobel prizes claims were won by guys who were getting their paychecks from the federal government, not from CU (and no, not the circuitous "USFG giving grant to CU that then used money to pay professor," nope, those guys were de facto and de jure direct USFG employees). Having your most valuable employees not actually be employed by you seems, well, not ideal.

Well run organizations (including large businesses) know that some units are more profitable than others and other units will rarely, if ever, turn a profit, but still they all contribute something to the success of the entire enterprise. When they are broken down into independent silos and evaluated solely on a bottom line basis, it rarely turns out well for the whole. That process can be a useful management exercise to help better see the big picture, but like all useful management exercises, when it's taken too far and for too long it ends up causing more harm than good.

@dio is right about knocking down walls between organizations, but how about starting on the Boulder campus and move out from there? None of the schools and departments could succeed on their own, so start tying all of the successes and failures together - because in the public's mind, they already are.

If Athletic Departments foresake independence, they cannot complain when they get scrutinized by their academic counterparts. You cannot tell the Admissions Department to STFU about their standards for a few dozen Football and Basketball players so that they admit marginal qualifiers if you’re not able to pave over mistakes with your own money.

 

[Hank]

We're #42 among public schools (tied with UI-Chicago and fvcking U of South Florida) and #97 nationally. Among public schools we are ranked below roughly 70% of the nation's predominant state public schools including such highly recognized and academically regarded schools as UC Merced, U of Delaware, SUNY Binghamton, Clemson, Texas A&M, and UC Davis (Hawk gets the last laugh). Harvahd of the West, baby!

My recollection was that CU was around the 25-30 range for public universities when I enrolled in 1995. Kansas was around 50. Now they are about the same. Several of my classmates from Mullen did not get into CU.

 

[skibum]

If Athletic Departments foresake independence, they cannot complain when they get scrutinized by their academic counterparts. You cannot tell the Admissions Department to STFU about their standards for a few dozen Football and Basketball players so that they admit marginal qualifiers if you’re not able to pave over mistakes with your own money.

Yes, but when the admissions department knows that their success is tied to the football and basketball team success they don't need to be told what to do.

"Can we find a way to let these guys in?" doesn't need to have a couple bills accompanying it. It needs to come after the president just mentioned to the dean of admissions, again and for the 47th time, that when the football team succeeds, applications go up and if applications go up, he can actually justify those raises.