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Forman's Challenge: Bulking up the Buffs
- Thread starter Buffnik
- Start date
The part of this thread regarding caloric intake (training table/stipend/NCAA etc...) seems unusually ill-informed, even by Allbuffs standards.
Serious question: Does anybody know what the **** they're talking about on this one, or is everybody talking out of their asses?
I really can't if who, if anybody, is informed on this one.
Serious question: Does anybody know what the **** they're talking about on this one, or is everybody talking out of their asses?
I really can't if who, if anybody, is informed on this one.
The Power 5 conferences have voted to cover the "full cost of attendance", which will add somewhere between $1M-3M likely to the CU athletic budget when it goes into play, probably next fall. Players will get a little extra cash.
The way it currently works is that each school can provide the housing and meal plan as part of the scholarship, or compensate to the player the cost of same in cash. That compensation may go further in Fort Collins than say Boulder.
Many players have zero cash, so they try to make the above monthly stipend intended for rent and groceries cover other things, like ladies night, etc.
I have a friend at KU. Athlete lives in a really nice athletic dorm which is really an apartment. Full kitchen and full meal ticket, to a C4C style place with choices that is very convenient. Athletes not wasting their time clipping coupons, shopping for food, and preparing the food. CU athletes get off campus as soon as possible. Can this be addressed?
The difference is the amount of meals they get at Dal Ward compared to other programs. Didn't someone here say they are only getting 1 meal a day (dinner) at the athletic facilities, while most of the other big time programs feed their players 3 squares/day?
A calorie is the amount of energy required to raise the temperature of 1 gram of water 1 degree Celsius at 1 atmosphere of pressure. It is equivalent to 4,184 Joules. So, if you put a bunch of that **** into your body, you either burn enough energy to get rid of it, or you get fat. So there.
CU planning committee is rumored to be working on this right now. Rumors out there of an athletes village kinda thing for all scholarship athletes. Don't think they can be 100% athletes per NCAA rules but probably 75-80%. Included a dedicated dining hall in those plans and things get fixed quickly. Part of the problem is that CU requires Freshman to live on campus and does not encourage anyone else to because there is no room. It is something they are fixing.
2014-2015 Division I Manual
16.5 Housing and Meals.
16.5.1 General Rule. An institution is required to apply the same housing policies to student-athletes as it applies to the student body in general. During the academic year, the institution may not house student-athletes in athletics dormitories or athletics blocks within institutional or privately owned dormitories or apartment buildings (when the institution arranges for the housing) on those days when institutional dormitories are open to the general student body. [R] (Adopted: 10/1/01 effective 8/1/02)
16.5 Housing and Meals.
16.5.1 General Rule. An institution is required to apply the same housing policies to student-athletes as it applies to the student body in general. During the academic year, the institution may not house student-athletes in athletics dormitories or athletics blocks within institutional or privately owned dormitories or apartment buildings (when the institution arranges for the housing) on those days when institutional dormitories are open to the general student body. [R] (Adopted: 10/1/01 effective 8/1/02)
16.5.1.1 Athletics Dormitories. Athletics dormitories shall be defined as institutional dormitories in which at least 50 percent of the residents are student-athletes. (Adopted: 1/10/91 effective 8/1/96, Revised: 11/1/01 effective 8/1/02)
16.5.1.2 Athletics Blocks. Athletics blocks shall be defined as individual blocks, wings or floors within institutional dormitories or privately owned dormitories or apartment buildings in which at least 50 percent of the residents are student-athletes. (Adopted: 1/10/91 effective 8/1/96, Revised: 1/10/92, 11/1/01 effective 8/1/02)
16.5.1.3 Exception—Nondiscriminatory Housing Policies. The prohibition against the use of athletics dormitories or blocks does not apply when the institution demonstrates that its housing assignment policies do not differentiate between student-athletes and students generally. (Adopted: 1/16/93 effective 8/1/96, Revised: 11/1/01 effective 8/1/02)
16.5.2 Permissible. Identified housing and meal benefits incidental to a student’s participation in intercollegiate athletics that may be financed by the institution are: [R]16.5.1.2 Athletics Blocks. Athletics blocks shall be defined as individual blocks, wings or floors within institutional dormitories or privately owned dormitories or apartment buildings in which at least 50 percent of the residents are student-athletes. (Adopted: 1/10/91 effective 8/1/96, Revised: 1/10/92, 11/1/01 effective 8/1/02)
16.5.1.3 Exception—Nondiscriminatory Housing Policies. The prohibition against the use of athletics dormitories or blocks does not apply when the institution demonstrates that its housing assignment policies do not differentiate between student-athletes and students generally. (Adopted: 1/16/93 effective 8/1/96, Revised: 11/1/01 effective 8/1/02)
(a) Summer-Dormitory Rentals. An institution may rent, at the regular institutional rate, dormitory space to a prospective or enrolled student-athlete during the summer months if it is the institution’s policy to make dormitory space available on the same basis to all prospective or enrolled students (see Bylaw 15.2.2.3 for permissible housing benefits for student-athletes eligible to receive financial aid while attending summer school).
(b) Preseason Practice Expenses. The institution may provide the cost of room and board to student-athletes who report for preseason practice prior to the start of the academic year, it being understood that the studentathlete has been accepted for admission to the institution at the time such benefits are received. (Revised: 4/24/03, 3/10/04, 4/24/14)
(c) Training Table Meals. An institution may provide only one training table meal per day to a student-athlete during the academic year on those days when regular institutional dining facilities are open (see Bylaw 15.2.2.1.5). A student-athlete who does not receive institutional athletically related financial aid covering the full cost of board, including a walk-on or partial scholarship recipient, may purchase one training table meal per day at the same rate that the institution deducts from the board allowance of student-athletes who receive athletically related financial aid covering board costs pursuant to Bylaw 15.2.2.1.5. (Adopted: 1/10/91 effective 8/1/96, Revised: 11/1/01 effective 8/1/02, 5/8/06, 4/26/07)
(d) Meals Incidental to Participation. An institution may provide meals to student-athletes as a benefit incidental to participation in intercollegiate athletics. An institution shall not provide student-athletes with a meal and cash for the same meal. (Revised: 4/24/14, 10/20/14)
(b) Preseason Practice Expenses. The institution may provide the cost of room and board to student-athletes who report for preseason practice prior to the start of the academic year, it being understood that the studentathlete has been accepted for admission to the institution at the time such benefits are received. (Revised: 4/24/03, 3/10/04, 4/24/14)
(c) Training Table Meals. An institution may provide only one training table meal per day to a student-athlete during the academic year on those days when regular institutional dining facilities are open (see Bylaw 15.2.2.1.5). A student-athlete who does not receive institutional athletically related financial aid covering the full cost of board, including a walk-on or partial scholarship recipient, may purchase one training table meal per day at the same rate that the institution deducts from the board allowance of student-athletes who receive athletically related financial aid covering board costs pursuant to Bylaw 15.2.2.1.5. (Adopted: 1/10/91 effective 8/1/96, Revised: 11/1/01 effective 8/1/02, 5/8/06, 4/26/07)
(d) Meals Incidental to Participation. An institution may provide meals to student-athletes as a benefit incidental to participation in intercollegiate athletics. An institution shall not provide student-athletes with a meal and cash for the same meal. (Revised: 4/24/14, 10/20/14)
(1) Cash for Missed Meal Due to Practice Activities. An institution may provide to a student-athlete the cash equivalent of a meal missed due to practice activities only if he or she has previously paid for the meal (either individually or through the board element of a scholartship). (Revised: 5/9/06, 4/24/14)
(2) Meals in Conjunction With Home Competition. All student-athletes are permitted to receive meals at the institution’s discretion beginning with the evening before competition and continuing until they are released by institutional personnel. An institution shall not provide cash to student-athletes in lieu of meals during this time period. An institution, at its discretion, may provide a meal or cash (not to exceed $15), but not both, to student-athletes at the time of their release by institutional personnel. (Revised: 4/25/02, 4/29/04, 5/2/05, 5/9/06, 12/12/06, 4/24/08 effective 8/1/08)
(3) Meals in Conjunction With Away-from-Home Competition. An institution may provide meals to student-athletes in conjunction with away-from-home competition pursuant to one of the following options: (Revised: 5/9/06, 4/24/08 effective 8/1/08, 9/24/09)
(2) Meals in Conjunction With Home Competition. All student-athletes are permitted to receive meals at the institution’s discretion beginning with the evening before competition and continuing until they are released by institutional personnel. An institution shall not provide cash to student-athletes in lieu of meals during this time period. An institution, at its discretion, may provide a meal or cash (not to exceed $15), but not both, to student-athletes at the time of their release by institutional personnel. (Revised: 4/25/02, 4/29/04, 5/2/05, 5/9/06, 12/12/06, 4/24/08 effective 8/1/08)
(3) Meals in Conjunction With Away-from-Home Competition. An institution may provide meals to student-athletes in conjunction with away-from-home competition pursuant to one of the following options: (Revised: 5/9/06, 4/24/08 effective 8/1/08, 9/24/09)
(i) All student-athletes are permitted to receive a pregame or postgame meal as a benefit incidental to participation in addition to regular meals (or meal allowances per institutional policy). An institution, at its discretion, may provide cash, not to exceed $15, in lieu of a postgame meal; or
(ii) All student-athletes are permitted to receive meals at the institution’s discretion from the time the team is required to report on call for team travel until the team returns to campus. If a studentathlete does not use team travel to return to campus, he or she may receive meals at the institution’s discretion up to the point he or she is released from team-related activities by the appropriate institutional authority. An institution shall not provide cash to student-athletes in lieu of meals under this option before their release. An institution may provide a meal or cash (not to exceed $15), but not both, to a student-athlete at the time of his or her release by the institutional authority, regardless of whether he or she uses team travel to return to campus.
(ii) All student-athletes are permitted to receive meals at the institution’s discretion from the time the team is required to report on call for team travel until the team returns to campus. If a studentathlete does not use team travel to return to campus, he or she may receive meals at the institution’s discretion up to the point he or she is released from team-related activities by the appropriate institutional authority. An institution shall not provide cash to student-athletes in lieu of meals under this option before their release. An institution may provide a meal or cash (not to exceed $15), but not both, to a student-athlete at the time of his or her release by the institutional authority, regardless of whether he or she uses team travel to return to campus.
(e) Snacks. An institution may provide snacks to a student-athlete at any time. (Revised: 10/120/14)
(f) Vacation-Period Expenses. The institution may provide the cost of room and board to student-athletes (during official institutional vacation periods) in the following circumstances. If an institution does not provide a meal to its student-athletes under such circumstances, a cash allowance may be provided, not to exceed the amount provided by the institution to institutional staff members on away-from-campus trips: (Adopted: 10/28/99, Revised: 1/14/97, 10/28/99, 4/29/04, 5/26/06, 1/8/07, 4/17/07, 4/24/14)
(f) Vacation-Period Expenses. The institution may provide the cost of room and board to student-athletes (during official institutional vacation periods) in the following circumstances. If an institution does not provide a meal to its student-athletes under such circumstances, a cash allowance may be provided, not to exceed the amount provided by the institution to institutional staff members on away-from-campus trips: (Adopted: 10/28/99, Revised: 1/14/97, 10/28/99, 4/29/04, 5/26/06, 1/8/07, 4/17/07, 4/24/14)
(1) Student-athletes who are required to remain on the institution’s campus for organized practice sessions or competition during the institution’s official vacation period. If the student-athlete lives at home during the vacation period, the cost of room and board may not be provided by the institution, other than to permit the student-athlete to participate in team meals incidental to participation;
(2) Student-athletes who return to campus during the institution’s official vacation period occurring during a regular academic term (not including vacation periods between terms) from institutional competition. Under such circumstances, room and board expenses may be provided beginning with the studentathlete’s arrival on campus until the institution’s regular dormitories and dining facilities reopen. If the student-athlete lives at home during the vacation period, the cost of room and board may not be provided by the institution; or
(3) Student-athletes who return to campus during the institution’s official vacation period between regular academic terms (e.g., summer-vacation period) from institutional competition that occurs at the end of the institution’s playing and practice season or a segment thereof. Under such circumstances, room and board expenses may be provided for not more than a 48-hour period, beginning with the student-athlete’s return to campus. If the student-athlete lives at home during the vacation period, the cost of room and board may not be provided by the institution.
(2) Student-athletes who return to campus during the institution’s official vacation period occurring during a regular academic term (not including vacation periods between terms) from institutional competition. Under such circumstances, room and board expenses may be provided beginning with the studentathlete’s arrival on campus until the institution’s regular dormitories and dining facilities reopen. If the student-athlete lives at home during the vacation period, the cost of room and board may not be provided by the institution; or
(3) Student-athletes who return to campus during the institution’s official vacation period between regular academic terms (e.g., summer-vacation period) from institutional competition that occurs at the end of the institution’s playing and practice season or a segment thereof. Under such circumstances, room and board expenses may be provided for not more than a 48-hour period, beginning with the student-athlete’s return to campus. If the student-athlete lives at home during the vacation period, the cost of room and board may not be provided by the institution.
(g) Nutritional Supplements. An institution may provide permissible nutritional supplements to a studentathlete for the purpose of providing additional calories and electrolytes. Permissible nutritional supplements do not contain any NCAA banned substances and are identified according to the following classes: carbohydrate/ electrolyte drinks, energy bars, carbohydrate boosters and vitamins and minerals. (Adopted: 4/27/00 effective 8/1/00, Revised: 11/1/01 effective 8/1/02, 4/14/09)
16.5.2.1 Effect of Violation—Preseason Practice Expenses. A violation of Bylaw 16.5.2-(b) due to a miscalculation of the permissible start date for preseason practice shall be considered an institutional violation per Constitution 2.8.1; however, the student-athlete’s eligibility shall not be affected. (Adopted: 10/29/09)
16.5.2.1 Effect of Violation—Preseason Practice Expenses. A violation of Bylaw 16.5.2-(b) due to a miscalculation of the permissible start date for preseason practice shall be considered an institutional violation per Constitution 2.8.1; however, the student-athlete’s eligibility shall not be affected. (Adopted: 10/29/09)
Mods, maybe we could have a mainboard link to the NCAA Division I manual or a something so even the laziest of us can readily access and read the rules.
Yeah, Kreise was "great"! Personally responsible for about a hundred debilitating shoulder injuries over his time at CU from teaching incorrect or sloppy techniques on several exercises, as I recall. But he looked and projected a scary, bad-a*ss image. Pitman was a meat head, Rob Lowe style, lotsa weight and weak on conditioning. Blacken had good theories, but relied on college kids to motivate themselves to work hard, ala the NFL, when he had a bunch of "Thursday is Ladies Night-type" of players.
Not only does Sly fail to use paragraphs, but he's wrong in so many ways about Forman and S & C all around. Forman has had to concentrate first on injury prevention, conditioning and symmetry in working with a very youthful squad. Think about it: One thing often stated about higher 3* and virtually all 4 & 5* players is they are like "men among boys". That's because they're physically more mature than other HS athletes. Recall sideline shots of teams like Bama , U$C and OSU, their players all look like they're 25 or 26, even their frosh! Prime example is JuJu Smith, U$C WR, frosh, looks like he's 24 yrs. old, facially and in body development; meanwhile, many of CU's guys look like they haven't even learned to shave yet and need time to change that baby fat to muscle.
I see the shift as MM's acceleration of R Forman's ideal (to him) 2.5-3 year program for incoming players, with MM moving up the "increase in strength and bulk" aspect to 2 year base in form, symmetry, conditioning and motivation.
Must be less than 50% student athletes, and can provide only 1 training table meal per day plus nutritional supplements. Otherwise SA's must use same facilities as other students.
I believe the new NCAA vote allowed schools to provide unlimited meals & snacks to athletes, but otherwise you are correct. I believe that other schools stock these "athlete villages" with tutors, student managers and walk-ons to tilt the numbers to be a mostly athletic dorm situation, too.
FIFY
Thanks for the clarification everyone. The new autonomy stuff I think changes a few of those guidelines for the P5 conferences. Even if they don't lots of big time programs have found ways around the requirements and made it possible to give the athletes their own space. From what I have heard, CU plans to expand the Will Vill section of campus, with 2 or 3 more of the new towers. After that is completed, the plan I have heard is to demo the engineering quad and build a new complex in that space. The family housing by the creek and on east campus are also going to be demo'd and replaced. So there appears to be plans in place that could allow for CU to incorporate an "athletes village" in a variety of places.
slystone
Well-Known Member
Dr wiz or is it gabe kotter ? my sincere apologies on the paragraph structure....sounds like you are suffering from rectal cranium inversion...anyway...my previous post highlighted the fact that on forman's program...the starting OL guys were playing at 280-285 as 4th year juniors and seniors vs DL guys who tipped the scales north of 300lbs...I get that forman has a master blueprint that he is working off of...but the rest of the conference is not standing still...so, he took a guy like jack harris who is 6'6" and was weighing 305 to start his sr season down to 280/285 by mid season--that didn't work and wont work at any level of ball. I applauded MM's desire to get both the OL and DL guys bigger and stronger...it is a well known fact that forman had OL and DL guys doing cross fit type of training the first year he was in charge...newsflash wiz...that doesn't help OL and DL guys--it is possible to build muscle without sacrificing speed and agility....My theme is that CU's weight room has been outdated for the last 10-12 years...turnover in S and C staff is a killer..no continuity in philosophy, etc as a result both O and D lines have had issues in the last 2-3 years...now for nutritional stuff...A CU player on scholarship gets in the range of $1200 per month for housing and grub...I am not plugged into the boulder rental market...can two players get a decent apt for $600 per head ?
[new structure here wiz] also seems plausible that a 20yr old player can go through $125 worth of grub per week pretty easily--throw in a movie...there is your monthly $$ flow. Another hidden aspect of this equation is that many of the kids who come from not so perfect households receive requests from folks at home to send them some of the scholarship $$ monthly...most big time schools fight this battle. So, it is easy to see how a player would cut corners to stretch his scholarship $$ and not eat the best food.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...ootball-players-eating-at-bcs-training-tables
I applaud MM's invite to Mcchesney...the OL and DL guys need more trench specific training and nutrition...hopefully the move to the new S and C center will help facilitate this..but, continuity in an S and C program is equally as important. If you think back to the CU @ ASU debacle in the fall of '13, the buffs were physically manhandled--this fall, MM mentioned how CU staff is monitoring the player's blood composition, etc..he also mentioned that the players were at an all time low reading the week of the CU/ASU tilt in '13..he mentioned the regular lifting-running-practice for the week prior on top of that being finals week -- in the pac 12 those types of mistakes will be exploited
[new structure here wiz] also seems plausible that a 20yr old player can go through $125 worth of grub per week pretty easily--throw in a movie...there is your monthly $$ flow. Another hidden aspect of this equation is that many of the kids who come from not so perfect households receive requests from folks at home to send them some of the scholarship $$ monthly...most big time schools fight this battle. So, it is easy to see how a player would cut corners to stretch his scholarship $$ and not eat the best food.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...ootball-players-eating-at-bcs-training-tables
I applaud MM's invite to Mcchesney...the OL and DL guys need more trench specific training and nutrition...hopefully the move to the new S and C center will help facilitate this..but, continuity in an S and C program is equally as important. If you think back to the CU @ ASU debacle in the fall of '13, the buffs were physically manhandled--this fall, MM mentioned how CU staff is monitoring the player's blood composition, etc..he also mentioned that the players were at an all time low reading the week of the CU/ASU tilt in '13..he mentioned the regular lifting-running-practice for the week prior on top of that being finals week -- in the pac 12 those types of mistakes will be exploited
The new High Performance Athletics Research Facility in the new complex will also be a big boost to the program. Not just monitoring blood composition but they will be able to test, tweak, and diagnose pretty much any problem our athletes may be having.
badbone63
Active Member
The rental market in Boulder is pricey. Most decent apartments like most of the apts near 28th or University Village on Taft start at 950.00 per person not including utilities (100.00 avg). That leaves you with very little cash to pay for gas, basic home supplies, food, laundry let alone any extras like entertainment, car repairs, parking and general living expenses. Most do not have parents that can supplement their wallets. Some of these athletes are supporting families, children and girlfriends. I would assume that most feel blessed to be in the situation but I also know that many are not eating correctly. I think until we find a way to feed them with unlimited swipes in the dining halls or something similar we will not have much success on the field. Look at what we pay these coaches and then we nickel and dime the guys working their butts off to perform. Just doesn't seem right.
THIS. There are HS programs doing a better job of building mass and strength than CU has done in the last decade. You nailed it. CU's sports performance program has been "white collar" for too long now. The flexibility, toning, injury-proofing direction is BS. MM is right in forcing the issue. Hard core, throwing plates, getting swoll is what we need to get back to.
There needs to be a balance. You need some of that white collar type of research and training to compliment the blue collar grunt work in the weight room. Sounds to me like HCMM wants there to be more of that balance where in the past it may have been lacking. Focusing on just one or the other leads to poor results. Luckily the new research center is going to help this out in a big way.
TDbuff
Club Member
I think Forman came in and wanted to break everybody down and build them back up again with some ideal weight/strength/speed combo. That's great if you're trying to find a player's peak in 3 or 4 years, but that doesn't help the juniors and seniors, or the freshman and sophomores that need to play right now. I think MacIntyre came in and said, I get what you're trying to do, but we don't have time for that sh*t--we'll all be fired before you ever get these guys built back up again.
So this is from Forman's bio on CU's website:
"He had an immediate impact on the CU program: from 2010 through 2012, the Buffaloes lost 274 games due to injury by players in the two-deep, an average of 91 per season; in 2013, that number dropped to 23, much of it credited to his training techniques."
I get that the "white collar" approach is not favorable to a win soon philosophy. However, flexibility and injury prevention are HUGE parts of the S&C program. We all saw and acknowledged how our defense was hurt when Thompson and Gillam got inured, among others. I know their injuries were not necessarily of a flexibility or overuse variety, but the point is that we need our starters to be playing. We don't have the necessary depth to make up for the loss of a couple guys here and there and if a "white collar" approach helps facilitate a relatively injury-free squad, then that's the direction they need to go, IMO. Obviously, there needs to be a balance. The off season focus has to be on getting a lot stronger, a lot bigger and a lot faster. It's a fine line that these S&C coaches have to walk, though. They can't be old school, mouth breathing, meat heads that force too much weight on kids before their bodies can handle it, ultimately leading to overuse injuries that will linger all season.
"He had an immediate impact on the CU program: from 2010 through 2012, the Buffaloes lost 274 games due to injury by players in the two-deep, an average of 91 per season; in 2013, that number dropped to 23, much of it credited to his training techniques."
I get that the "white collar" approach is not favorable to a win soon philosophy. However, flexibility and injury prevention are HUGE parts of the S&C program. We all saw and acknowledged how our defense was hurt when Thompson and Gillam got inured, among others. I know their injuries were not necessarily of a flexibility or overuse variety, but the point is that we need our starters to be playing. We don't have the necessary depth to make up for the loss of a couple guys here and there and if a "white collar" approach helps facilitate a relatively injury-free squad, then that's the direction they need to go, IMO. Obviously, there needs to be a balance. The off season focus has to be on getting a lot stronger, a lot bigger and a lot faster. It's a fine line that these S&C coaches have to walk, though. They can't be old school, mouth breathing, meat heads that force too much weight on kids before their bodies can handle it, ultimately leading to overuse injuries that will linger all season.
slystone
Well-Known Member
TDbuff...right on....I hate to use these guys as examples, but http://footballscoop.com/news/video-go-inside-nebraskas-brand-new-athletic-performance-lab/
Have you guys seen this twittter account? I wasn't aware of it until yesterday when Coach Walters RTed some stuff from it. It's definitely interesting for some insight as to who's lifting well:
https://twitter.com/CUBuffsSP
https://twitter.com/CUBuffsSP
The food issue is a big excuse in my mind. Players have access to the training table twice a day, meal plans, and whatever else food you want/can afford. If a player isn't keeping up on his diet and macros it's on him. Just my $0.02
I think Orr banged you in college.
Something to keep in mind is that with the metabolism these guys have from all the weight training and the mass they are trying to maintain, they may need 5,000 calories a day simply to maintain weight. Getting that without eating junk food is not easy under the old NCAA regulations of only providing 1 meal a day and no snacks to a student athlete. We're seeing some good changes for the athletes and the CU program, as it seems that CU is on top of this with hiring a nutritionist and making sure that it stays out in front of these changes in order to maximize their utility for athletic performance.