Good article in the Post today about High School sports in Colorado

[BlackNGold]

I think their is a misconception that this has always been a private school thing. I remember Cherry Creek having what many perceived as an unfair advantage and cherry picking top athletes, having the best facilities, etc. I remember many years ago CCHS was playing a much poorer school in the state championship game and it was bitter cold - the Denver Broncos gave Cherry Creek sideline heaters because several Broncos Players and coaches had kids going to CC.

Cherry Creek had 8 championships in 14 years but have had zero over the past 15 years. Things go in cycles.

 

[dio]

My understanding is the rules were changed for public schools in the late 90s, hence a major reason that Logan jumped to Mullen

 

[Junction]

Perhaps Colorado needs to go back to being a 6A state. Boulder & Fairview are both well above the 5A enrollment but still have no business being in the same class as most of the big 5A schools.

Or they could just move the enrollment cut-off between 4A and 5A. This year there were 52 5A football schools and 33 4A schools. Move the enrollment cutoff between the 2 to even it out (the cutoffs are already different for football than other sports, so it wouldn't have to affect anything else...). I think most of the 10 lowest enrollment schools (aside from the schools playing up) are probably within 100 students of the cutoff anyway...

 

[SuperiorBuff]

Or they could just move the enrollment cut-off between 4A and 5A. This year there were 52 5A football schools and 33 4A schools. Move the enrollment cutoff between the 2 to even it out (the cutoffs are already different for football than other sports, so it wouldn't have to affect anything else...). I think most of the 10 lowest enrollment schools (aside from the schools playing up) are probably within 100 students of the cutoff anyway...

I would have no issue with that. Some teams would continue to play up, I.E. Pomona & Columbine.

 

[INTHABUFF]

Enrollment at private schools had nothing to do with the sports programs when they recruit and financially aid players. There is no defense for the Valor Violators. They cheat and have been caught multiple times. If CHSAA had any balls Valor would be eliminated from post season play until the kids in question graduate.

There is no arguing with this. They should be sanctioned to whatever extent it takes to make sure they are not cheating any more than everybody else is cheating.

In theory it makes sense to create a private school league, but I don't think there are enough of similar size to make it practical. I think the only way to manage them is to force them to play up to a level where the competition is reasonable. For the most part, I think they do that.

 

[Junction]

I would have no issue with that. Some teams would continue to play up, I.E. Pomona & Columbine.

I'm counting on it. Part of the reason for the imbalance is that 5A had 7 schools playing up last year, and with Valor I would guess it will be at least 8 next year. Moving 10 from 5A to 4A to balance things out would pretty much depend on those schools playing up to stay where they are.

 

[aik]

There is no arguing with this. They should be sanctioned to whatever extent it takes to make sure they are not cheating any more than everybody else is cheating.

In theory it makes sense to create a private school league, but I don't think there are enough of similar size to make it practical. I think the only way to manage them is to force them to play up to a level where the competition is reasonable. For the most part, I think they do that.

This is what was the biggest obstacle to me; there not being enough private schools in each size grouping across the state to make classifications necessary. I agree with the earlier post that something could be done to limit or be stricter on enforcing athletic scholarship quantity at these schools.

 

[kalbuff]

The Parents!

There are some good insights in this thread. And these kinds of complaints have always been around, really. Someone mentioned Cherry Creek's run. It is the largest and richest school district in the state. And look at them now.

But this morning's article was the second in a series. The article in the Sunday paper discussed what I think is a much more serious problem at the root of places like Valor. It is the parents of many of these athletes. They are obsessed! Whether it is just an ego thing, living vicariously or trying to save money with the student getting an athletic scholarship, so many parents are getting their kids into club sports at a very early age. And most disturbing is that when the kid gets to high school they have no concept of "team." It is all about them. I think we have seen this dynamic on display with many of the coddled athletes on the big stage. I used to coach youth baseball, and some of the parents are just obnoxious and model pretty bad values for their progeny.

 

[Burrito]

Helicockter parents.

 

[sackman]

A quick search revealed that Cherry Creek High School has approximately 3,600 students. It plays in the same division as Boulder High, which has 1,764 students. Longmont High, in comparison, has 1,250 students and plays in the next lowest division.

There's nearly a 2,000 student difference between BHS and CCHS, and a 500 student difference between BHS and LHS, but BHS plays in the same division (5A) as Cherry Creek. Tell me how that makes any sense at all?

 

[Junction]

A quick search revealed that Cherry Creek High School has approximately 3,600 students. It plays in the same division as Boulder High, which has 1,764 students. Longmont High, in comparison, has 1,250 students and plays in the next lowest division.

There's nearly a 2,000 student difference between BHS and CCHS, and a 500 student difference between BHS and LHS, but BHS plays in the same division (5A) as Cherry Creek. Tell me how that makes any sense at all?

The problem is that Creek is 960 students bigger than Grandview, which is the second biggest school in the state. Merge Grandview and Evergreen, and you're still a few students short of Creek. Grandview is as close to BHS in enrollment as it is to Creek. Unless you put Creek in a classification all by themselves (something Creek grads have been doing for years... :lol, that particular disparity isn't going away...

 

[JimmyBuff]

The problem is that Creek is 960 students bigger than Grandview, which is the second biggest school in the state. Merge Grandview and Evergreen, and you're still a few students short of Creek. Grandview is as close to BHS in enrollment as it is to Creek. Unless you put Creek in a classification all by themselves (something Creek grads have been doing for years... :lol, that particular disparity isn't going away...

Creek always had that advantage. Smoky Hill had a similar student number to what Grandview has now in the 90's before it was built.

2010 students Top 10 students number
Cherry Creek: 3501
Grandview: 2607
Aurora Central: 2437
Smoky Hill: 2374
Eaglecrest: 2362
Cherokee Trail: 2328
Rangeview: 2268 (this ghetto school is still standing? :lol
Arapahoe: 2251
Chaparral: 2176
Doherty: 2175
Overland: 2138

 

[BlackNGold]

A quick search revealed that Cherry Creek High School has approximately 3,600 students. It plays in the same division as Boulder High, which has 1,764 students. Longmont High, in comparison, has 1,250 students and plays in the next lowest division.

There's nearly a 2,000 student difference between BHS and CCHS, and a 500 student difference between BHS and LHS, but BHS plays in the same division (5A) as Cherry Creek. Tell me how that makes any sense at all?

But even with that advantage of numbers Cherry Creek has not done much in football for a long time.

 

[sackman]

My point is that there should be more divisions, I guess. BHS shouldn't be trying to compete with schools that are twice their size. That goes for FHS and a bunch of others as well.

 

[BuffUp]

Are teams allowed to play down? I know a school like Valor can play up, but other than schools just crossing the cut-off going up being able to stay for a year or two, I didn't think a team could play down in a lower enrollment classification..

no - I just meant schools (like a 4a school) might play football at 4a then play volleyball at 5a... IMO every school if it is 4a then all sports should be played 4a

 

[BuffUp]

Creek always had that advantage. Smoky Hill had a similar student number to what Grandview has now in the 90's before it was built.

2010 students Top 10 students number
Cherry Creek: 3501
Grandview: 2607
Aurora Central: 2437
Smoky Hill: 2374
Eaglecrest: 2362
Cherokee Trail: 2328
Rangeview: 2268 (this ghetto school is still standing? :lol
Arapahoe: 2251
Chaparral: 2176
Doherty: 2175
Overland: 2138

Then throw in some CS and Pueblo 5A schools that barely have 1600 students - really not fair... especially when it is a more financially challenged area and the parents don't let the kids play sports :huh:

 

[BuffUp]

and BTW in most states there are sub divisions within - kinda like DIV 1 and NAIA college sports - maybe Colorado is a little unique due to drives over mountains (4 and 5 hours) to get to games and either big enough cities/towns to have a 5A school ex. Grand Junction vs lots of remote small towns - another words our population is not really spread out equally....

I just know I get tired of Denver schools seem to have the advantage year in and year out

 

[Highlander]

For those wondering, Grand Junction HS is 1757 students, and Fairview HS is 1911.

 

[SuperiorBuff]

Anyone listen to the dorks on the Ticket this AM sucking McCaffrey's dick? They used girls basketball, Highlands Ranch, as justification for Valor recruiting the way they do. McCaffrey blames the whole issue on jealousy.

 

[BuffUp]

Anyone listen to the dorks on the Ticket this AM sucking McCaffrey's dick? They used girls basketball, Highlands Ranch, as justification for Valor recruiting the way they do. McCaffrey blames the whole issue on jealousy.

and I "liked" McCaffrey

 

[CUFan]

Anyone listen to the dorks on the Ticket this AM sucking McCaffrey's dick? They used girls basketball, Highlands Ranch, as justification for Valor recruiting the way they do. McCaffrey blames the whole issue on jealousy.

I heard it. I don't blame him. He was able to send his kids to school with the education he wanted and quality sports programs at the same time. He mentioned he looked at Kent and CA for his kids as well, but settled on Valor due to the quality of sports. This doesn't bother me as much as others because obviously Valor recruits, but so do plenty of other schools. The system is broken, but I don't see a foolproof solution.

 

[BuffUp]

I heard it. I don't blame him. He was able to send his kids to school with the education he wanted and quality sports programs at the same time. He mentioned he looked at Kent and CA for his kids as well, but settled on Valor due to the quality of sports. This doesn't bother me as much as others because obviously Valor recruits, but so do plenty of other schools. The system is broken, but I don't see a foolproof solution.

same as all in life the rich can do more for their kids than the average - back in the day we hated going into those nasty mean blue collar towns and neighborhoods... now days you have to watch out for the Dr and lawyer's kids

 

[SuperiorBuff]

I heard it. I don't blame him. He was able to send his kids to school with the education he wanted and quality sports programs at the same time. He mentioned he looked at Kent and CA for his kids as well, but settled on Valor due to the quality of sports. This doesn't bother me as much as others because obviously Valor recruits, but so do plenty of other schools. The system is broken, but I don't see a foolproof solution.

He was going to send them to Regis and changed his mind when they wouldn't give him a position on the staff. Which by the way, Valor did do. Something smells funny.

I don't blame anyone with the resources for sending their kid to a private school. However, private schools also have a few athletes from a fair distance away who's families lack the bank account to pay for said private school let alone the gas to get there. This is the difference between private and public recruiting.

 

[Buffarino]

With Colorado's open enrollment policies there really are no neighborhood schools anymore. Look at Lendale White going to Chatfield...he went from one public school to another.

That's not entirely true anymore. Many of the top schools are full. The only way you're getting in is if it is your home school.

 

[SuperiorBuff]

That's not entirely true anymore. Many of the top schools are full. The only way you're getting in is if it is your home school.

Exactly, many public schools have locked or put a very small cap on open enrollment in recent years. I'm willing to bet that if Fairview stopped accepting open enrollment they would have the same if not smaller enrollment as Monarch.

 

[Buffarino]

Anyone listen to the dorks on the Ticket this AM sucking McCaffrey's dick? They used girls basketball, Highlands Ranch, as justification for Valor recruiting the way they do. McCaffrey blames the whole issue on jealousy.

Yeah, I heard it. I thought Ed was spot on when trying to clear his own name and way off base when trying to defend the Valor coaches actions by saying that everyone does it. What everyone does not do, Ed, is offer scholarships to kids who otherwise could not afford to attend. And Valor's coach is also the Dean of Admissions? Yeah, no conflict of interest there...:rolling_eyes:

 

[Junction]

no - I just meant schools (like a 4a school) might play football at 4a then play volleyball at 5a... IMO every school if it is 4a then all sports should be played 4a

The enrollment criteria are different for football than for other sports. I assume because it takes so many more kids to field a football team than basketball, volleyball, etc. And because there are smaller schools out there that don't do football, but do have other sports, so the pool is bigger and the teams get distributed differently. So by rule a lot of the bigger 4A football schools are classified as 5A for other sports. It's not their choice, it's just the rules.

and BTW in most states there are sub divisions within - kinda like DIV 1 and NAIA college sports - maybe Colorado is a little unique due to drives over mountains (4 and 5 hours) to get to games and either big enough cities/towns to have a 5A school ex. Grand Junction vs lots of remote small towns - another words our population is not really spread out equally....

I just know I get tired of Denver schools seem to have the advantage year in and year out

For those wondering, Grand Junction HS is 1757 students, and Fairview HS is 1911.

Apparently I was looking at an old list yesterday, because I saw 1649 for Grand Junction, but I've seen a few people coming up with higher numbers for lots of schools than I saw. But regardless, BuffUp has something of a point. There are only 2 5A schools on the western slope going forward (Fruita Monument is actually the biggest, and GJ Central is dropping from 5A to 4A in football next year). So those schools do a lot of non-conference travel to get 5A games, then will end up playing 60% of their league games against 4A teams (the Southwest Conference is only 5 teams for football, which is every 4A and 5A school on the western slope). But there's really no practical solution to that. The travel to join a 5A Denver league would be too expensive, and no Denver league is going to agree to take it on. Those schools are going to end up playing a bunch of 4A games, which is actually not a great thing for them. It doesn't do much to prepare them for the playoffs, and the playoff point system penalizes them for "playing down".

The thing about the size disparity is that it's tough, but it can be overcome. I was looking at who the 10 schools that would drop to 4A would be under my idea of moving the 10 smallest 5A schools to 4A and evening out the number of 5A and 4A schools. Included in the list would be 5A champ Columbine, semifinalist Pomona, regular season #1 Grand Junction and schools like Highlands Ranch and Dakota Ridge that have done pretty well at times.

And we've got to quit looking at Creek as the example of the size of school smaller 5A schools have to compete against. There is less size disparity between the 30th largest public school (again, according to the list I found) Gateway at 1,767, and #2 Grandview (2,718) than there is between Grandview and Creek (3,678).

 

[CUFan]

He was going to send them to Regis and changed his mind when they wouldn't give him a position on the staff. Which by the way, Valor did do. Something smells funny.

I don't blame anyone with the resources for sending their kid to a private school. However, private schools also have a few athletes from a fair distance away who's families lack the bank account to pay for said private school let alone the gas to get there. This is the difference between private and public recruiting.

I understand the difference in public/private recruiting. But I think it tends to be a very good opportunity for the kids that are recruited to said private school. It clearly is not fair from a public/private competitive sports perspective, but I don't really care because those kids are getting a good opportunity. Private schools recruit great students as well (maybe not Valor as I don;t have much knowledge on that school) and give them scholarships. To me recruiting of athletes and students is a good thing when looking at it from the kids perspective. However, it obviously messes up the competitive balance in sports.

Did not know the stuff about Regis and McC. With that knowledge I completely agree he was covering his own tracks.

 

[SuperiorBuff]

I understand the difference in public/private recruiting. But I think it tends to be a very good opportunity for the kids that are recruited to said private school. It clearly is not fair from a public/private competitive sports perspective, but I don't really care because those kids are getting a good opportunity. Private schools recruit great students as well (maybe not Valor as I don;t have much knowledge on that school) and give them scholarships. To me recruiting of athletes and students is a good thing when looking at it from the kids perspective. However, it obviously messes up the competitive balance in sports.

Did not know the stuff about Regis and McC. With that knowledge I completely agree he was covering his own tracks.

If the private schools are required to give 2 need based scholarships to 5'2" kids from the same school as the athlete I might be convinced to have less of a problem with it. I say 2 for 1 since sports success has a tremendous impact on the school's prestige; just like it does at the collegiate level.

 

[CUFan]

If the private schools are required to give 2 need based scholarships to 5'2" kids from the same school as the athlete I might be convinced to have less of a problem with it. I say 2 for 1 since sports success has a tremendous impact on the school's prestige; just like it does at the collegiate level.

Makes sense, but conceptually I hate the idea of anyone having a say in what a private school does. Maybe that is an argument for a private school league.

While sports success has an impact on prestige in high school, spots at Regis were in high demand long before they got good at sports again.