Have I been too fair to Karl Dorrell?

[BuffHerd]

So what rabbit was anyone expecting RG to pull out of the CU hat when MT Dumped us? long gone are the Gordon Gee days of CU institutional support for the football program. We have an athletics program now that can’t support itself without conference revenues. In other words, we can’t have nice things because we can’t afford nice things and the administration, the regents and the tax payer are all seemingly fine with that.
KD hire was a gut punch. Were there really no better candidates available? Can CU even be competitive in making new hires? Does anyone even want to come here? Assistants looking for first head coaching jobs and those looking to rejuvenate their careers. MT was the former, now we have the latter.
MT could not have f’ed us worse than he did; that being said, the department doesn’t have the deep pockets to buy out a coaching staff and recruit hot head coach candidates and their dream staffs. Then of course you step on your own d*cks again with University v football dynamics.
I agree RG could have made a better hire, made a splash of some sort but until the University sees football as important to the University rather than a distraction from the wine and cheese party they have going on…

 

[SINKRATZ]

So what rabbit was anyone expecting RG to pull out of the CU hat when MT Dumped us? long gone are the Gordon Gee days of CU institutional support for the football program. We have an athletics program now that can’t support itself without conference revenues. In other words, we can’t have nice things because we can’t afford nice things and the administration, the regents and the tax payer are all seemingly fine with that.
KD hire was a gut punch. Were there really no better candidates available? Can CU even be competitive in making new hires? Does anyone even want to come here? Assistants looking for first head coaching jobs and those looking to rejuvenate their careers. MT was the former, now we have the latter.
MT could not have f’ed us worse than he did; that being said, the department doesn’t have the deep pockets to buy out a coaching staff and recruit hot head coach candidates and their dream staffs. Then of course you step on your own d*cks again with University v football dynamics.
I agree RG could have made a better hire, made a splash of some sort but until the University sees football as important to the University rather than a distraction from the wine and cheese party they have going on…

Whatever you think of the Dorrell hire, giving him a fully guaranteed contract was malpractice. RG brought in a HC no one else in the country wanted and doubled down on that decision by making him impossible to fire for years into his deal.

 

[The Alabaster Yak]

Whatever you think of the Dorrell hire, giving him a fully guaranteed contract was malpractice. RG brought in a HC no one else in the country wanted and doubled down on that decision by making him impossible to fire for years into his deal.

The one time we all would have preferred the Regents not approve a contract. Seriously, though, have to think it was entirely on purpose, specifically so he wouldn’t have to fire and hire for at least 4 years

 

[BuffsNYC]

Whatever you think of the Dorrell hire, giving him a fully guaranteed contract was malpractice. RG brought in a HC no one else in the country wanted and doubled down on that decision by making him impossible to fire for years into his deal.

What does this mean? Aren't all employment contracts fully guaranteed? Can you point to some football coach who signed a contract with a liquidated damages clause less than the face amount?

Not being a dick, I've just never heard of a coach's contract being anything other than what you call "fully guaranteed."

 

[Darth Snow]

What does this mean? Aren't all employment contracts fully guaranteed? Can you point to some football coach who signed a contract with a liquidated damages clause less than the face amount?

Not being a dick, I've just never heard of a coach's contract being anything other than what you call "fully guaranteed."

No, most contracts are not fully guaranteed. Most liquidated damages clauses are for amounts lower than the full value of the contract in college football. Hell, in other areas too. The whole point is so they don't have to litigate damages and the coach can go looking for new work without worrying about offsetting his damages.

 

[BuffsNYC]

most liquidated damages clauses are for amounts lower than the full value of the contract in college football. Hell, in other areas too. The whole point is so they don't have to litigate damages and the coach can go looking for new work without worrying about offsetting his damages.

Yes, and I understand that these clauses are regularly included in coaching contracts to protect the coach--which is why Midnight Mel didn't have to pay the entire amount of his contract when he fled. I haven't heard of such clauses protecting the schools. Whenever a coach is fired, I always read about the contract amount still owed and then, maybe, some negotiation to lessen that amount.

I know the common wisdom on this board is that RG is just an idiot, especially when it comes to negotiating contracts. I'm open to that argument, but I'd like to see some evidence that it's possible to negotiate a liquidated damages firing clause in the coaching arena. I mean if nobody else is doing it, I can't see an agent accepting it for his client.

 

[Darth Snow]

Yes, and I understand that these clauses are regularly included in coaching contracts to protect the coach--which is why Midnight Mel didn't have to pay the entire amount of his contract when he fled. I haven't heard of such clauses protecting the schools. Whenever a coach is fired, I always read about the contract amount still owed and then, maybe, some negotiation to lessen that amount.

I know the common wisdom on this board is that RG is just an idiot, especially when it comes to negotiating contracts. I'm open to that argument, but I'd like to see some evidence that it's possible to negotiate a liquidated damages firing clause in the coaching arena. I mean if nobody else is doing it, I can't see an agent accepting it for his client.

Yea, pretty normal for the clauses to protect both parties. Macintyre was not owed his full contract, for instance. One of the reasons RG is an idiot is for agreeing to let Mel go for so cheap if he wanted to go.

Fully guaranteeing Karl's contract was idiotic. Even if he went back to the NFL the school would have saved hundreds of thousands of dollars. Karl had 0 leverage to ask for that.

 

[BuffsNYC]

Yea, pretty normal for the clauses to protect both parties. Macintyre was not owed his full contract, for instance. One of the reasons RG is an idiot is for agreeing to let Mel go for so cheap if he wanted to go.

Fully guaranteeing Karl's contract was idiotic. Even if he went back to the NFL the school would have saved hundreds of thousands of dollars. Karl had 0 leverage to ask for that.

You sure? Everything I read indicates that Macintyre was owed the full amount of his contract after he was fired, and that a settlement was later negotiated which lowered the amount the school paid, but accelerated the payments.

I hate to say it, but you seem to be talking out of your ass. I'm still waiting for someone to chime in with some proof that an AD negotiated a liquidated damages clause in the employment contract that would pay a coach less than he was owed when he's fired vs. negotiating a lower payout after the firing.

 

[skibum]

Yes, and I understand that these clauses are regularly included in coaching contracts to protect the coach--which is why Midnight Mel didn't have to pay the entire amount of his contract when he fled. I haven't heard of such clauses protecting the schools. Whenever a coach is fired, I always read about the contract amount still owed and then, maybe, some negotiation to lessen that amount.

I know the common wisdom on this board is that RG is just an idiot, especially when it comes to negotiating contracts. I'm open to that argument, but I'd like to see some evidence that it's possible to negotiate a liquidated damages firing clause in the coaching arena. I mean if nobody else is doing it, I can't see an agent accepting it for his client.

I think you're right on this one. I don't necessarily begrudge that part of the contract.

I think what bugs me (and, I suspect others) is that it really felt like a contract package designed to try and land Sark was basically handed to a much lesser candidate without much negotiation.

The simple fact is that KD would have accepted less than he was given, and I think "given" is the operative word.

That money could have been better spent elsewhere instead of making it rain on LC's buddy.

 

[SINKRATZ]

Yes, and I understand that these clauses are regularly included in coaching contracts to protect the coach--which is why Midnight Mel didn't have to pay the entire amount of his contract when he fled. I haven't heard of such clauses protecting the schools. Whenever a coach is fired, I always read about the contract amount still owed and then, maybe, some negotiation to lessen that amount.

I know the common wisdom on this board is that RG is just an idiot, especially when it comes to negotiating contracts. I'm open to that argument, but I'd like to see some evidence that it's possible to negotiate a liquidated damages firing clause in the coaching arena. I mean if nobody else is doing it, I can't see an agent accepting it for his client.

Mel Tucker’s CU contract wasn’t fully guaranteed.

Jedd Fisch gets 65% of his remaining contract if terminated without cause. Chip Kelly gets 70%. Nick Rolovich gets 60%. Dan Lanning, who was in high demand, gets 70% of his remaining contract if fired (or 80% if he wins 10 games in any season). That’s just in our conference.

I get that many contracts now are fully guaranteed, particularly for the best coaches, but Dorrell had zero negotiating power - NOBODY but CU wanted him to be their HC.

 

[Darth Snow]

You sure? Everything I read indicates that Macintyre was owed the full amount of his contract after he was fired, and that a settlement was later negotiated which lowered the amount the school paid, but accelerated the payments.

I hate to say it, but you seem to be talking out of your ass. I'm still waiting for someone to chime in with some proof that an AD negotiated a liquidated damages clause in the employment contract that would pay a coach less than he was owed when he's fired vs. negotiating a lower payout after the firing.

Macintyre was a bad example. I now remember being furious about that language as well.

Look, it took me 3 minutes to find evidence that you, in fact, are the one talking out your ass:

FBS schools spent over $533.6M in dead money

FBS schools paid football and men's and women's basketball coaches more than $533.6 million not to coach from 2010 to January 2021.

www.espn.com

With Malzahn's contract extension, Leath said the buyout provision was "unpalatable from our side, but necessary because of the playing field everybody was in at the time. So you take a risk that he'll perform well for two or three or four years and the buyout thing will go away. That's what you're hoping for."

Leath said he did push back on Malzahn's buyout provision and got it reduced from having to pay 100% of the remaining salary to paying 75% of what was left on the deal.

However, the trend over the past 10 years has been towards more and more guaranteed money because coaches have been fleecing schools.

 

[BuffsNYC]

I think you're right on this one. I don't necessarily begrudge that part of the contract.

I think what bugs me (and, I suspect others) is that it really felt like a contract package designed to try and land Sark was basically handed to a much lesser candidate without much negotiation.

The simple fact is that KD would have accepted less than he was given, and I think "given" is the operative word.

That money could have been better spent elsewhere instead of making it rain on LC's buddy.

Yes, this makes sense. RG overpaid for KD--that's a supportable argument.

 

[BuffsNYC]

Mel Tucker’s CU contract wasn’t fully guaranteed.

Jedd Fisch gets 65% of his remaining contract if terminated without cause. Chip Kelly gets 70%. Nick Rolovich gets 60%. Dan Lanning, who was in high demand, gets 70% of his remaining contract if fired (or 80% if he wins 10 games in any season). That’s just in our conference.

I get that many contracts now are fully guaranteed, particularly for the best coaches, but Dorrell had zero negotiating power - NOBODY but CU wanted him to be their HC.

Thanks. This makes sense--if one side has a liquidated damages clause, the other should as well. I just hadn't heard of it. RG, what an idiot!

 

[BuffsNYC]

Look, it took me 3 minutes to find evidence that you, in fact, are the one talking out your ass:

Don't be churlish. This was one time I was actually asking questions because I didn't know the answer. And your initial answer was clearly wrong.

 

[Darth Snow]

Don't be churlish. This was one time I was actually asking questions because I didn't know the answer. And your initial answer was clearly wrong.

Sir, I'm being snarky because you were churlish. Don't be more churlish.

 

[96 Buff]

get a ****ing room.

 

[Darth Snow]

get a ****ing room.

I'd prefer a whiskey room.

 

[Denver_sc]

Mel Tucker’s CU contract wasn’t fully guaranteed.

Jedd Fisch gets 65% of his remaining contract if terminated without cause. Chip Kelly gets 70%. Nick Rolovich gets 60%. Dan Lanning, who was in high demand, gets 70% of his remaining contract if fired (or 80% if he wins 10 games in any season). That’s just in our conference.

I get that many contracts now are fully guaranteed, particularly for the best coaches, but Dorrell had zero negotiating power - NOBODY but CU wanted him to be their HC.

You might want to update your sources given the verb tense you're using on the above.

 

[BuffsNYC]

get a ****ing room.

Prude

 

[SINKRATZ]

You might want to update your sources given the verb tense you're using on the above.

Eh, WSU happenings are pretty forgettable. If it helps, Rolovich’s replacement, Jake Dickert, got a 5 year contract with only $7.5M guaranteed.

 

[leftybuff]

So what rabbit was anyone expecting RG to pull out of the CU hat when MT Dumped us? long gone are the Gordon Gee days of CU institutional support for the football program. We have an athletics program now that can’t support itself without conference revenues. In other words, we can’t have nice things because we can’t afford nice things and the administration, the regents and the tax payer are all seemingly fine with that.
KD hire was a gut punch. Were there really no better candidates available? Can CU even be competitive in making new hires? Does anyone even want to come here? Assistants looking for first head coaching jobs and those looking to rejuvenate their careers. MT was the former, now we have the latter.
MT could not have f’ed us worse than he did; that being said, the department doesn’t have the deep pockets to buy out a coaching staff and recruit hot head coach candidates and their dream staffs. Then of course you step on your own d*cks again with University v football dynamics.
I agree RG could have made a better hire, made a splash of some sort but until the University sees football as important to the University rather than a distraction from the wine and cheese party they have going on…

According to reports, Sark was a go. The deal was cut but RG tried to force Hagan and Chevy onto the staff. No, that isn't gospel, but there is definitely smoke to that fire. So, yeah, there were guys who were actually in demand who would have come here.

As others noted, a fully guaranteed contract to a guy who NO ONE ELSE wanted is idiocy. Take a flier on the best young G5 guy you can find, try (like they did) to hire a top flight coordinator. Hiring a guy with so little traction in CFB he can't even be called a retread wreaks of incompetence or throwing up the white flag.

 

[hokiehead]

TIL "churlish"

 

[PAHIBuff]

According to reports, Sark was a go. The deal was cut but RG tried to force Hagan and Chevy onto the staff. No, that isn't gospel, but there is definitely smoke to that fire. So, yeah, there were guys who were actually in demand who would have come here.

As others noted, a fully guaranteed contract to a guy who NO ONE ELSE wanted is idiocy. Take a flier on the best young G5 guy you can find, try (like they did) to hire a top flight coordinator. Hiring a guy with so little traction in CFB he can't even be called a retread wreaks of incompetence or throwing up the white flag.

Wow. Thanks for this post. It's my opinion that Sark is overrated and will fail at UT, but he still has a weighty reputation. It's a sign of RG's black & gold myopia if he thought he could force a couple of lightweights like Hagan and Chev onto Sark.

Then he bolts and RG goes into a time-crunch panic and offers a gold plated deal to Karl, who was probably making less than $400K with no job security as a position coach with the Dolphins. Alternate idea is that maybe Karl has a really good agent who slowed things down enough to present RG with the near-death experience of going 0-2 in replacing Tucker with the time clock ticking. Negotiations are often lost by one of the parties freaking out. Hello Rick.

 

[leftybuff]

Wow. Thanks for this post. It's my opinion that Sark is overrated and will fail at UT, but he still has a weighty reputation. It's a sign of RG's black & gold myopia if he thought he could force a couple of lightweights like Hagan and Chev onto Sark.

Then he bolts and RG goes into a time-crunch panic and offers a gold plated deal to Karl, who was probably making less than $400K with no job security as a position coach with the Dolphins. Alternate idea is that maybe Karl has a really good agent who slowed things down enough to present RG with the near-death experience of going 0-2 in replacing Tucker with the time clock ticking. Negotiations are often lost by one of the parties freaking out. Hello Rick.

I have to give a h/t to @Bread. He was the one who had the dope on the post-Tucker cluster.

 

[patebuff]

According to reports, Sark was a go. The deal was cut but RG tried to force Hagan and Chevy onto the staff. No, that isn't gospel, but there is definitely smoke to that fire. So, yeah, there were guys who were actually in demand who would have come here.

As others noted, a fully guaranteed contract to a guy who NO ONE ELSE wanted is idiocy. Take a flier on the best young G5 guy you can find, try (like they did) to hire a top flight coordinator. Hiring a guy with so little traction in CFB he can't even be called a retread wreaks of incompetence or throwing up the white flag.

Summers and Chev were the two that the AD was supposedly requiring as holdovers, but I imagine Hagan would have been as well. I don't see an issue with Hagan though as he's a RB coach that costs almost nothing. Requiring the two coordinators is complete insanity.

This supposedly happened with Troy Calhoun as well, who CU offered right after Sark. He obviously told RG to pound sand

 

[leftybuff]

Summers and Chev were the two that the AD was supposedly requiring as holdovers, but I imagine Hagan would have been as well. I don't see an issue with Hagan though as he's a RB coach that costs almost nothing. Requiring the two coordinators is complete insanity.

This supposedly happened with Troy Calhoun as well, who CU offered right after Sark. He obviously told RG to pound sand

I had heard several names tossed around as legit candidates: EB, Sark, Bielema, Mora Jr., Calhoun...I guess my point is that it isn't like there was nobody but KD interested. The AD just gave up, apparently.

 

[PAHIBuff]

I had heard several names tossed around as legit candidates: EB, Sark, Bielema, Mora Jr., Calhoun...I guess my point is that it isn't like there was nobody but KD interested. The AD just gave up, apparently.

Post-Barnett the CU HC job has become increasingly undesirable.

 

[leftybuff]

Post-Barnett the CU HC job has become increasingly undesirable.

That is true. But even then, CU landed the Pigeon, and while he was exposed here, he was a hot commodity then, Tucker also. But I agree, the institutional mismanagement has made CU far less attractive than when it was after GB.

 

[Buffalo Brad]

HCKD is what he is, a cardboard coach who will fail. He cannot and does not care about recruiting, let along keep the players and experience he had in the stable brought in by other coaches. The staff is still mediocre. He will lose a lot more than he wins. I guess he is what we have had here for 2 decades so I guess he is what we deserve. Our admin ran off the first guy we have had since Barnett that actually got it. Unless there are wholesale changes at the leadership level in the Admin and AD, it will not matter. But KD is exactly what they want and deserve. A below average coach who will deliver average results for a below average coach

 

[Buffnik]

Looking back, the time to have hired KD if we were going to do so was after the 2010 season. He was only 3 years removed from being HC at UCLA and there was a ton of pressure to hire a Buff. Plus we were about to enter the Pac-12 and KD was a Pac-10 guy. But iirc, he wasn't mentioned much as a candidate at that time. Somehow he then became the guy 10 years later despite not having a HC job in between. Water under the bridge, I suppose, but I've always thought it was curious.