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Honest thoughts on CSU and where CU needs to look for rivalry

Good thing Fort Collins is as big as the Houston metro area

Other small things that probably don't matter like Heisman Trophy, former membership in a power conference, multiple national championships in other sports, 3rd largest university in Texas (ahead of some current power conference members from TX), national notoriety of the Phi Slamma Jamma hoops teams, Tier 1 research university, etc., etc.

But let's focus on its stadium only being 33% bigger than CSU's.
 
I believe the most likely outcome will be the formation of a new conference at some point among the group listed in that analysis. The dividing line will come when full cost of tuition is being paid to student athletes. Schools like Utah State and San Jose State have already made rumblings that they can't afford to do it. I can't imagine Nevada will be able pay the bill with the condition of its athletic department. I think the MWC could be done within ten years and a new 14-team conference formed from some of the schools listed above. The best one I have seen looks like this:

West
BYU
Boise State
New Mexico
San Diego State
Fresno State
Colorado State
UNLV

East
UConn
Cincinnati
UCF
USF
Houston
SMU
Memphis

Basically a merger of the strongest from the Mountain West and American to form a true coast to coast conference to try and leverage television inventory. You could always add the service academies (AFA and Navy) to get to 16 and have more national appeal. I think a realignment among the non-BCS programs is motivating CSU as much as anything when it comes to the new facility plans. The administration is trying to ensure that CSU does not get lost in the shuffle if that type of upheaval in the non-BCS leagues in fact occurs as it almost did when Boise State and SDSU tried to leave the conference.

nah... if this were to try and take shape you would see the Big 12 snag Cincy, BYU and possibly the Florida schools or BSU or SDSU.
 
Other small things that probably don't matter like Heisman Trophy, former membership in a power conference, multiple national championships in other sports, 3rd largest university in Texas (ahead of some current power conference members from TX), national notoriety of the Phi Slamma Jamma hoops teams, Tier 1 research university, etc., etc.

But let's focus on its stadium only being 33% bigger than CSU's.

oh but..but .. csu will be able to fit up to 40,000 standing room only :rofl:
 
My honest thoughts...
Colorado fans do not have very many options for a true road trip, where you can actually drive your own car to some other campus, spark up a BBQ and enjoy a football afternoon. It's my experience and belief that catching a CU game at other venues is an important and enriching fan experience. Some of my top CU fan experiences have been on some other school's campus.

The RMS in Denver robs CU fans of the opportunity of experiencing game day on other campuses and denies many CU fans an occasion to compare other locations on a perfect Saturday football afternoon.

My preference is that CU
1) abolish the game at Mile High. Been there, done that.
2) schedule 1-1 or 2-1 with schools that are <500 miles from Boulder gives CU fans an opportunity to explore the region.

Ft Collins CSU: 55 miles
Colo Spgs AFA: 90 miles
Laramie WYO: 137 miles
Albuquerque, UNM 432 miles
 
Other small things that probably don't matter like Heisman Trophy, former membership in a power conference, multiple national championships in other sports, 3rd largest university in Texas (ahead of some current power conference members from TX), national notoriety of the Phi Slamma Jamma hoops teams, Tier 1 research university, etc., etc.

But let's focus on its stadium only being 33% bigger than CSU's.

UofH is doing all the right things to try and position themselves for the next round of musical chairs. They will never end up in a conference with Texas (those Texas grudges run deep) but I think the fact that they are in a major tv market, a recruiting hotbed and a football crazy state work in their favor. I think they would be a good Pac12 expansion target under the right circumstances. If aim for Rice first, because of their academics but I think UofH is making strides.
 
UofH is doing all the right things to try and position themselves for the next round of musical chairs. They will never end up in a conference with Texas (those Texas grudges run deep) but I think the fact that they are in a major tv market, a recruiting hotbed and a football crazy state work in their favor. I think they would be a good Pac12 expansion target under the right circumstances. If aim for Rice first, because of their academics but I think UofH is making strides.

The thing holding back UH is that it's a commuter school located in a rough part of town. Both of those things are changing and changing rapidly. The school's invested heavily in upgrading dorms and student facilities. Some of the neightborhoods are UH are starting to gentrify. There are a handful of old neighborhoods with dilapidated mansions that my real estate agent has talked about being the next place to buy now if you want a huge ROI.
 
The thing holding back UH is that it's a commuter school located in a rough part of town. Both of those things are changing and changing rapidly. The school's invested heavily in upgrading dorms and student facilities. Some of the neightborhoods are UH are starting to gentrify. There are a handful of old neighborhoods with dilapidated mansions that my real estate agent has talked about being the next place to buy now if you want a huge ROI.

If USC can succeed in south central then UofH can make a go of it in the 3rd ward.

I agree with everything you say and certainly have a rooting interest in seeing them get invited to the P12.

With all the practice you've gotten lately, are you ready to do another remodel? I'll bring the beer and split the profits with you!
 
Agree with OP, CSU doesn't appear to be a good fit for any BCS conference, but then the Big XII is crazy and I have no idea what they might do. I realize the rivalry discussion here has been covered a few times (each week), and is tiring to some. but it's interesting to me.

'Nik's logic around the Cornhuskers as a rival is pretty solid. The fact that so many of you passionately don't want to renew the rivalry is actually evidence in support of his point. My thinking goes like this -- qualities desired in a "rival" are:
1. has a national reputation as a 'football' school
2. member of a BCS conference (which brings a degree of credibility in all sports) with a BCS athletic budget
3. road-trippable for fans and students (that road-trip limit was ~6 hours out East but I think my criteria have changed; anything < 10 hours is a now road trip this far West)

Those criteria limits CU's options to (correct me if I missed someone): Nebraska, Kansas, K-State, Oklahoma, and Texas Tech. I just have to believe that NU is more attractive than the others from any point of view except basketball.

Now, add a requirement of "the other school wants to build a rivalry with us". Now, this is an interesting question and I haven't followed those schools like you guys have.

Another criteria that I'd like to add is "co-location of student-candidate and alumni bases" -- for example, VT/UVA and Wisconsin/Minnesotta both pull students from the same high schools and both have grads who end up working in the same companies or living in the same metro areas. I'm not sure if there's another BCS school nearby that would share a high percentage of either with CU (further argument to support the CSU rivalry).

Waive point #2 and BYU could be added and this idea bears some thought. BYU has many of the qualities of a BCS school and is always part of expansion discussions. First, BYU went out on a limb with their independent status and is probably open to the idea of fostering long term rivalries more than the other schools I listed. Closer road trip than most. In terms of being a "big time" athletic school, despite the lack of BCS affiliation, they are there in terms of budget and national perception. If the series could be timed for UU off-years it could be perfect. My perception could be wrong here, but UU and BYU don't seem to share the same type of rivalry as most in-state schools and their respective fan bases seem to have more overlap -- it wouldn't surprise me if a BYU/CU rivalry also enhanced the CU/UU rivalry (especially if home games were in off years). Lastly, the idea of fostering a stereotype rivalry between future LDS missionaries and piss-balloon throwing dirty hippies is a fun thought experiment. Although, when I do think of BYU players, I like to imagine they're all like Jim McMahon. I do understand that tailgating at BYU might not the day-long drunken orgy that Buffs are used to.

Won't speak for anyone else, but I 100% agree with Skiddy's comments about the importance of games at rival campuses to my evolution as a college football fan. Dead fucjking on and very well put. Nothing better than watching your school complete a comeback on enemy turf and feel the emotions drain out of the home crowd.

I think the CSU rivalry should be nurtured. From what I understand of the legislative influences, the match-up isn't going away (not that I think it should). Having two legitimate football schools in the state boosts both (1) perception would change to where people didn't automatically assume CU got all the top in-state recruits and had to actually work for them (2) enhances the state as being a "college football state" which theoretically leads to increased retention of in-state athletes. Slider's comments about best outcome for CSU being in a conference with P5 leftovers seem legit to me, but academically the Rams are still below most of those schools. As expressed in other threads, and by Skiddy, the RMS need to be on the campuses.
 
The other advantage of rekindling the rivalry with NU is that they care about football. A lot. Rivalries with schools like that provide some encouragement to CU to play big boy football. By contrast, games with CSU don't do that. In fact, I would argue that they do exactly the opposite.
 
Agree with OP, CSU doesn't appear to be a good fit for any BCS conference, but then the Big XII is crazy and I have no idea what they might do. I realize the rivalry discussion here has been covered a few times (each week), and is tiring to some. but it's interesting to me.

'Nik's logic around the Cornhuskers as a rival is pretty solid. The fact that so many of you passionately don't want to renew the rivalry is actually evidence in support of his point. My thinking goes like this -- qualities desired in a "rival" are:
1. has a national reputation as a 'football' school
2. member of a BCS conference (which brings a degree of credibility in all sports) with a BCS athletic budget
3. road-trippable for fans and students (that road-trip limit was ~6 hours out East but I think my criteria have changed; anything < 10 hours is a now road trip this far West)

Those criteria limits CU's options to (correct me if I missed someone): Nebraska, Kansas, K-State, Oklahoma, and Texas Tech. I just have to believe that NU is more attractive than the others from any point of view except basketball.

Now, add a requirement of "the other school wants to build a rivalry with us". Now, this is an interesting question and I haven't followed those schools like you guys have.

Another criteria that I'd like to add is "co-location of student-candidate and alumni bases" -- for example, VT/UVA and Wisconsin/Minnesotta both pull students from the same high schools and both have grads who end up working in the same companies or living in the same metro areas. I'm not sure if there's another BCS school nearby that would share a high percentage of either with CU (further argument to support the CSU rivalry).

Waive point #2 and BYU could be added and this idea bears some thought. BYU has many of the qualities of a BCS school and is always part of expansion discussions. First, BYU went out on a limb with their independent status and is probably open to the idea of fostering long term rivalries more than the other schools I listed. Closer road trip than most. In terms of being a "big time" athletic school, despite the lack of BCS affiliation, they are there in terms of budget and national perception. If the series could be timed for UU off-years it could be perfect. My perception could be wrong here, but UU and BYU don't seem to share the same type of rivalry as most in-state schools and their respective fan bases seem to have more overlap -- it wouldn't surprise me if a BYU/CU rivalry also enhanced the CU/UU rivalry (especially if home games were in off years). Lastly, the idea of fostering a stereotype rivalry between future LDS missionaries and piss-balloon throwing dirty hippies is a fun thought experiment. Although, when I do think of BYU players, I like to imagine they're all like Jim McMahon. I do understand that tailgating at BYU might not the day-long drunken orgy that Buffs are used to.

Won't speak for anyone else, but I 100% agree with Skiddy's comments about the importance of games at rival campuses to my evolution as a college football fan. Dead fucjking on and very well put. Nothing better than watching your school complete a comeback on enemy turf and feel the emotions drain out of the home crowd.

I think the CSU rivalry should be nurtured. From what I understand of the legislative influences, the match-up isn't going away (not that I think it should). Having two legitimate football schools in the state boosts both (1) perception would change to where people didn't automatically assume CU got all the top in-state recruits and had to actually work for them (2) enhances the state as being a "college football state" which theoretically leads to increased retention of in-state athletes. Slider's comments about best outcome for CSU being in a conference with P5 leftovers seem legit to me, but academically the Rams are still below most of those schools. As expressed in other threads, and by Skiddy, the RMS need to be on the campuses.

CSU should look to a VT. VT is a former CSU that "made it". Wasn't so long ago VT was in the Metro Conf and began this millennium A-10.
 
BYU would never become a CU rivalry partner.

Their stands on social/moral issues are diametrically opposed to much of what is commonly accepted by the CU student body. Playing them in a rivalry series would invite some interactions on both sides that BYU as a school would never allow themselves to be part of. They are tremendously aware of how their athletic programs fit into the perception of the school and the religion and work hard to protect the image presented.

Beyond that they already have their yearly battle with the Utes, who already bring some of those negative fan interactions but is so established they couldn't get away with dropping the game.
 
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partially true, but there's some key differentiators:
- (on-campus) Lane Stadium has held > 52k since 1980
- prior to the 1990s, Virginia Tech had a reputation as a strong engineering school despite unremarkable overall academic rankings
- unlike CSU, VT never had pro-sports teams to compete with for fans, leading to a more interested/rabid fan base. in this respect, VT is more like SEC schools and CSU more like Pac schools (that analogy just occurred to me)
- VT had UVA as a rival --> member of a (future) BCS conference whose alumni and students actually thought of us as a rival

but never mind that, there's no motivation for VT to start a football series with CSU. Hokies are looking to B1G and the $EC for matchups (which I like much better than padding our schedule with Liberty or Bill & Mary).

CSU should look to a VT. VT is a former CSU that "made it". Wasn't so long ago VT was in the Metro Conf and began this millennium A-10.
 
BYU would never become a CU rivalry partner.

Their stands on social/moral issues are diametrically opposed to much of what is commonly accepted by the CU student body. Playing them in a rivalry series would invite some interactions on both sides that BYU as a school would never allow themselves to be part of. They are tremendously aware of how their athletic programs fit into the perception of the school and the religion and work hard to protect the image presented.

Beyond that they already have their yearly battle with the Utes, who already bring some of those negative fan interactions but is so established they couldn't get away with dropping the game.

are you saying they wouldn't take Jimmy Mac today?
 
partially true, but there's some key differentiators:
- (on-campus) Lane Stadium has held > 52k since 1980
- prior to the 1990s, Virginia Tech had a reputation as a strong engineering school despite unremarkable overall academic rankings
- unlike CSU, VT never had pro-sports teams to compete with for fans, leading to a more interested/rabid fan base. in this respect, VT is more like SEC schools and CSU more like Pac schools (that analogy just occurred to me)
- VT had UVA as a rival --> member of a (future) BCS conference whose alumni and students actually thought of us as a rival

but never mind that, there's no motivation for VT to start a football series with CSU. Hokies are looking to B1G and the $EC for matchups (which I like much better than padding our schedule with Liberty or Bill & Mary).

All true, although Fort Collins being in a booming area population-wise as opposed to as rural a location probably serves as an asset for them in negotiations, even though .0001% of Northern Colorado's population gives a hoot about CSU sports (see: Boston College bringing Boston's TV sets to ACC in theory, despite BC fans being more invisible than Bigfoot). VT's fan base for football has certainly been a notch above CSU for ages, although I wouldn't call VT fans anything special or it being a "destination" place to catch a game until Vick. The difference between Lane 1998 and Lane 2002 was drastic.
 
CU students definitely think of CSU as a rival

This might be the biggest critique I have of Mike Bohn's regime*... that he allowed that to occur. Hell, he nurtured it. He also fed it by leaving every RMS negotiation looking like CSU's bitch.

*Biggest general critique is the downfall of the football program. Within that, the change of culture that lowered CU to the point where the students circled the CSU football game as the big rivalry event of the season is possibly Bohn's biggest **** up.
 
are you saying they wouldn't take Jimmy Mac today?

He walked a fine line while he was there. He actually did respect their behavioral standards when he was on campus, away from campus was a different story.

It's a tough question. At the time they had him they were not close to as well known nationally as they are now, he helped bring them that recognition.

I will not make any claims that their program is free from issues, only that they do the best they can to manage the public perception of the program to their benefit.
 
CU students definitely think of CSU as a rival
Tini - I can't imagine that as a majority. Most of my circle, which were rabid CU fans as students, couldn't find CSU on a map. We could have cared less.
 
Tini - I can't imagine that as a majority. Most of my circle, which were rabid CU fans as students, couldn't find CSU on a map. We could have cared less.

When'd you go to school? All it takes is to look at the attendance for that game in both basketball and football to give you that conclusion.
 
Until we get to a point where we can compete with the rest of the Pac 12, CSU is our rival. Sorry if you don't like that. It's the fact.
 
All too true. It's such a problem with the culture right now.

Could you imagine if McElwain and those at CSU decided to play an annual series with UNCO at a neutral site and started saying that the boys from Greeley were your biggest rival?

Its not an accurate comparison nor would it ever happen. Say what you want about CSU or the MWC, but both CSU and CU are playing in the same division. A more accurate comparison would be Utah State claiming to be a rival to Utah or BYU. Which I don't believe any of their fans or players acknowledge.
 
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Its not an accurate comparison. Say what you want about CSU or the MWC, but both CSU and CU are playing in the same division. A more accurate comparison would be Utah State claiming to be a rival to Utah or BYU. Which I don't believe any of their fans or players acknowledge.

No. That is not more accurate since BYU is a national championship and Heisman winning program that is at a higher level than many BCS programs in support, facilities and following.

How about this one:

What if Syracuse said they were going to start playing Buffalo every year at a neutral site? Or West Virginia did that with Marshall? Or Boston College did that with UMass? Or Ohio State did it with Cincinnati? Or Arkansas did it with Arkansas State? Or LSU did it with Tulane? Or Tennessee did it with Memphis?

Would any of those match ups, in your opinion, elevate the BCS program?
 
No. That is not more accurate since BYU is a national championship and Heisman winning program that is at a higher level than many BCS programs in support, facilities and following.

How about this one:

What if Syracuse said they were going to start playing Buffalo every year at a neutral site? Or West Virginia did that with Marshall? Or Boston College did that with UMass? Or Ohio State did it with Cincinnati? Or Arkansas did it with Arkansas State? Or LSU did it with Tulane? Or Tennessee did it with Memphis?

Would any of those match ups, in your opinion, elevate the BCS program?

Once Nik gets it rolling he is vicious!
 
@hokie
Your post indicated an adjusted western road trip threshold of 10 hours vs the east coast 6.

Not so fast.

I appreciate the sentiment, but the reality of the b12 experience simply does no warrant this adjustment. If Coloradans are going to sit for 10 hours in a car, Las Vegas better be at the other end. Few have the temperament to drive east.

i have been to CU games at nebraska, Oklahoma, okie light, k-state, Kansas and kstate. The turnout ain't pretty.
My experience has been that the 500-600 miles of driving between the front range and these locations is something a fan does once. Then they say, "**** it". The scenery and road trip to the central plains is monotonous. The college towns are not exactly handsome by CU standards. Add in the Nebraska and Kansas police, and it's a non-starter for most.

CU was fortunate to get 3,000 fans to Lincoln under best conditions.
A much more common experience was some number well under 1000, with a good number of those being fans who live in the area, family of the players, and hard core fans who can afford to fly. Flying to OKC or KC or Lubbock and renting a car is an infinitely better option than driving when more than 250 miles are in play.

The CU turnout at CSU Hughes was pretty good back in the late 80's. It was fun to bunk with HS friends, tailgate in the goat pasture, and see how little brother lives (while thinking, "damn, I was blessed to meet CU's entry requirements) Getting home is a relative snap. I'd return to FoCo for a roadie, enjoy the brewpubs, and soak in the downtown scene at ft fun. It would be a nice change up every four years or so.

i have little desire to ever go back to Lincoln, manhattan, or Norman. Lawrence is just okay. Lubbock and Stillwater were great drinking towns. I'd go back to either, but it would involve jet engines.
 
CSU should look to a VT. VT is a former CSU that "made it". Wasn't so long ago VT was in the Metro Conf and began this millennium A-10.

It might be a fair comparison in where VT was about 20 years ago, but no way in living hell will CSU's following ever come remotely close to what VT's is. Not to mention the differences in on-field performances. And Blacksburg is a helluva lot more remote than Fort Collins.
 
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