JoPa and his entire staff should be fired

[Lt.Col.FrankSlade]

I get that. I'm not arguing that Paterno should be arrested. Sounds like he obeyed the law.

But the law does not equal morality.

Morality goes beyond the law. It even demands that we violate unjust laws. Paterno didn't even need to go that far. All he had to do was show some human decency in caring about this child and putting it in the hands of people qualified to investigate things. To protect other children. He chose to protect his friend and his program instead while covering his ass with a weak and slanted report to people who were technically superiors.

I'm not going down the morality path. It's neither here nor there for me to comment on Joe Paterno's morality. I've got way too many skeletons in my closet to start talking about whether someone should be more or less "moral".

 

[BuffUp]

It is funny to see you, the first guy to pile on Barnett at any opportunity when he was here, try and somehow defend Paterno.

Actually, it's not funny, it is sick. But I'm sure you can convince yourself that JoePa is still a righteous guy. I think he's a piece of **** and he bears partial responsibility for the kids Sandusky attacked after he was notified that his good buddy is a pedophile.

not only do I agree with you and many more with the same feelings - as a parent how could this happen that long ago? If that was my son, I would have pulled a Bobbit on his ass!! These guys are a bunch of sick bastards!! Everyone that had anything at all to do with this crap shoul be in JAIL NOW - including jopa (****er) - if they knew what was going on and turned a blind eye they are just as guilty!!!

 

[Buffnik]

I'm not going down the morality path. It's neither here nor there for me to comment on Joe Paterno's morality. I've got way too many skeletons in my closet to start talking about whether someone should be more or less "moral".

OK.

I'm totally comfortable doing it.

I've done some immoral things. I continue to do immoral things. Nothing about those two statements makes me feel any less qualified to say that it's immoral to rape children or to avoid an active role in stopping it if you are confronted with it.

 

[BuffUp]

I'm not going down the morality path. It's neither here nor there for me to comment on Joe Paterno's morality. I've got way too many skeletons in my closet to start talking about whether someone should be more or less "moral".

skeletons in a closet is a big difference vs mess'n around with a little boy !

 

[MtnBuff]

What I have read indicated that Paterno was advised of something that a then-graduate assistant claimed to have observed. I think that is a stretch to say that he "knew of specific incidences within the PSU facility." He was advised of what someone told him. How did Paterno know whether that GA was telling the truth or not? Maybe the GA couldn't stand Sandusky. Maybe the GA was trying to get rid of Sandusky. Maybe the GA was trying to stir up trouble within the Penn State coaching department. 2nd hand information is generally not reliable - there is a reason it is called hearsay.

Joe Paterno is not a police officer. Joe Paterno did not personally observe any wrongdoing (at least as much as I've seen reported). He received information 2nd hand. With the information he was provided, Joe went up the chain of command, as was the policy of Penn State University, and told his superiors what had been reported to him. Could Paterno have done more? Sure. But I think it is a stretch to suggest that he had some type of "moral responsibility" to do more -without more information to support it. I will say -- if this was not just an isolated event (i.e. if Paterno had been told about other incidents involving Sandusky before this GA information) I think he has an obligation to do more.

I am sure we have all been told of "rumors" of wrong-doing before. Everything from extra-marital affairs to knowing a friend was drunk driving to knowing a friend stole office supplies from his workplace. As an attorney I have certainly heard reports of illegal activity. I don't think anybody is under a "moral obligation" to start calling police unless that person has actual personal knowledge of the wrongdoing, or a reason to suspect wrongdoing. The mere fact that someone claims to have observed some wrong-doing is not enough, imo. If I called your boss and told him I had seen you doing something illegal (something I totally manufactured on my own) -- would my comments, alone, warrant a full police investigation into what could be nothing more than my made-up allegations.

There needs to be a more thorough investigation into just what happened at Penn State when all these things unfolded. At the end of the day it is still a public university and every employee is entitled to certain due process. It is an unfortunate situation, but it is all too easy to look back today, almost 10 years later, and say that you would have acted differently.

We are not talking about extra-marital affairs, stealing office supplies, or even drunk driving. We are talking about crimes against children, horrendous crimes against children. As an educator, and for any educator the trust that parents put in me and my fellow educators to provide a safe environment for their children is paramount.

This was not some isolated, third hand rumor. Paterno heard about the locker room incident from someone he trusted enough to employ and promote on a long-term basis. This was not an isolated incident and Paterno clearly didn't follow up on it. Even if the incident was isolated or the evidence was lacking, the moral imperative to protect children requires that he follow through on it and take appropriate action following.

You can take all the legal views you want in terms of questioning evidence, etc. In my mind in the moral obligation to protect children stands ahead of any other considerations. The fact that Paterno ignored a long history of incidents tells me that it was more important for him to sweep this under the rug than to protect the children who were the victims or potential victims and this is completely inexcusable. Paterno must go and so must anyone on his staff who aided in the cover up or ignored the evidence of wrong-doing or the cover up.

 

[Lt.Col.FrankSlade]

We are not talking about extra-marital affairs, stealing office supplies, or even drunk driving. We are talking about crimes against children, horrendous crimes against children. As an educator, and for any educator the trust that parents put in me and my fellow educators to provide a safe environment for their children is paramount.

This was not some isolated, third hand rumor. Paterno heard about the locker room incident from someone he trusted enough to employ and promote on a long-term basis. This was not an isolated incident and Paterno clearly didn't follow up on it. Even if the incident was isolated or the evidence was lacking, the moral imperative to protect children requires that he follow through on it and take appropriate action following.

You can take all the legal views you want in terms of questioning evidence, etc. In my mind in the moral obligation to protect children stands ahead of any other considerations. The fact that Paterno ignored a long history of incidents tells me that it was more important for him to sweep this under the rug than to protect the children who were the victims or potential victims and this is completely inexcusable. Paterno must go and so must anyone on his staff who aided in the cover up or ignored the evidence of wrong-doing or the cover up.

Where do you get that it is a fact "that Paterno ignore a long history of incidents"?

From everything I have read, he took information that he was advised of (i.e. ONE INCIDENT) and passed it on to his superiors just like he was supposed to.

Are you aware of some information out there that JOE PATERNO had been told, PERSONALLY, about multiple incidents involving Jerry Sandusky? Link please.

 

[krom]

What I have read indicated that Paterno was advised of something that a then-graduate assistant claimed to have observed. I think that is a stretch to say that he "knew of specific incidences within the PSU facility." He was advised of what someone told him. How did Paterno know whether that GA was telling the truth or not? Maybe the GA couldn't stand Sandusky. Maybe the GA was trying to get rid of Sandusky. Maybe the GA was trying to stir up trouble within the Penn State coaching department. 2nd hand information is generally not reliable - there is a reason it is called hearsay.

Joe Paterno is not a police officer. Joe Paterno did not personally observe any wrongdoing (at least as much as I've seen reported). He received information 2nd hand. With the information he was provided, Joe went up the chain of command, as was the policy of Penn State University, and told his superiors what had been reported to him. Could Paterno have done more? Sure. But I think it is a stretch to suggest that he had some type of "moral responsibility" to do more -without more information to support it. I will say -- if this was not just an isolated event (i.e. if Paterno had been told about other incidents involving Sandusky before this GA information) I think he has an obligation to do more.

I am sure we have all been told of "rumors" of wrong-doing before. Everything from extra-marital affairs to knowing a friend was drunk driving to knowing a friend stole office supplies from his workplace. As an attorney I have certainly heard reports of illegal activity. I don't think anybody is under a "moral obligation" to start calling police unless that person has actual personal knowledge of the wrongdoing, or a reason to suspect wrongdoing. The mere fact that someone claims to have observed some wrong-doing is not enough, imo. If I called your boss and told him I had seen you doing something illegal (something I totally manufactured on my own) -- would my comments, alone, warrant a full police investigation into what could be nothing more than my made-up allegations.

There needs to be a more thorough investigation into just what happened at Penn State when all these things unfolded. At the end of the day it is still a public university and every employee is entitled to certain due process. It is an unfortunate situation, but it is all too easy to look back today, almost 10 years later, and say that you would have acted differently.

Up the chain of command? Joe Paterno IS the chain of command. To think that he has superiors is ridiculous. Also, you make it sound like he got info that a player was smoking weed. The GA told him that someone was ass raping a child in their facility. You would think he would do more than just send it up the chain of command. Wait, does that mean he sent it to himself? The more thorough investigation you require should have happened 10 ****ing years ago.

 

[JimmyBuff]

Up the chain of command? Joe Paterno IS the chain of command. To think that he has superiors is ridiculous.

well obviously he does since he wasn't allowed to talk today.

 

[Shldr2Shldr]

Up the chain of command? Joe Paterno IS the chain of command. To think that he has superiors is ridiculous. Also, you make it sound like he got info that a player was smoking weed. The GA told him that someone was ass raping a child in their facility. You would think he would do more than just send it up the chain of command. Wait, does that mean he sent it to himself? The more thorough investigation you require should have happened 10 ****ing years ago.

Completely agree it should have been investigated, however investigation is a University matter. It is not a football matter which is what Joe Pa is there for. Should he have pressed the university to investigate and should he have mentioned it to the authorities? Yes he should have, but I do not think he is responsible or should be held responsible for letting these things happen. He was told about it once, ten years ago. Not like it was a weekly occurrence for him to hear these stories.

 

[NW Buff]

Where do you get that it is a fact "that Paterno ignore a long history of incidents"?

From everything I have read, he took information that he was advised of (i.e. ONE INCIDENT) and passed it on to his superiors just like he was supposed to.

Are you aware of some information out there that JOE PATERNO had been told, PERSONALLY, about multiple incidents involving Jerry Sandusky? Link please.

Before you comment any more, please google the grand jury testimony. It's in the Washington Post unedited. If you can honestly read that and think that Paterno has no personal culpability, then I will simply agree to disagree with you.

 

[krom]

well obviously he does since he wasn't allowed to talk today.

I don't buy that. If he doesn't want to talk then he cancels the presser.

 

[skibum]

In my job, I very occasionally come across cases of financial fraud. The first course of action I am supposed to take is to report it 'up the chain.' Here's the thing though: if I think the fraud is criminal, and I report it 'up the chain,' and my superiors don't do anything substantive about it - I *still* have an obligation to call the IG's office and report it, regardless of what my superiors think. If I have that obligation in looking after other people's money - I kind of think Joe Pa has a similar obligation regarding the safety of young children. But, you know, who am I to judge?

 

[leftybuff]

Maybe another way to think about it would be, if it were your child Sandusky was buggering, would you want the single most influential person in PSU FB to poo-poo the report of rape, or take it seriously enough to see it was properly investigated by making damn sure the proper authorities knew there was a serious allegation?

 

[JimmyBuff]

I don't buy that. If he doesn't want to talk then he cancels the presser.

Joe's son already has said he wanted to talk. Spanier is the one that called Joe and say not to show up

 

[Lt.Col.FrankSlade]

Before you comment any more, please google the grand jury testimony. It's in the Washington Post unedited. If you can honestly read that and think that Paterno has no personal culpability, then I will simply agree to disagree with you.

Do you mean the grand jury report? Or the actual grand jury testimony? I can find the grand jury report, and I've read it. I haven't seen the actual grand jury testimony, and didn't realize grand jury testimony was public.

 

[Buffarino]

Where do you get that it is a fact "that Paterno ignore a long history of incidents"?

Does it really need to be more than one? He was told by someone who witnessed one of these incidents. He did nothing beyond send it up the flagpole after he toned it down a bit so his buddy wouldn't sound like a psychopath.

 

[Buffarino]

OK.

I'm totally comfortable doing it.

I've done some immoral things. I continue to do immoral things. Nothing about those two statements makes me feel any less qualified to say that it's immoral to rape children or to avoid an active role in stopping it if you are confronted with it.

This. Holy ****, this.

 

[Buffarino]

Completely agree it should have been investigated, however investigation is a University matter.

Investigation of an alleged rape on a minor is a University matter? What world do you live in? That's a police/DA matter.

 

[Liver]

slade,

i've not read the whole thread yet, but just in case someone hasn't mentioned this--- teachers, including public university teachers are usually "mandated reporters" meaning that they are required by law to report incidents like this, even without having complete info. they must report to the proper authorities, not their own bosses. if they do not, they are subject to liability, including, of course, termination.

i would think joepa and everyone else who knew ANYTHING about this will be fired.

this is much different than the barnett scandal because of the age of the alleged victims and the responsibilities of the public employees.

 

[Shldr2Shldr]

I dont think Slade is saying that Joe Pa wasn't wrong in not doing more. I think he is saying the same thing that I am. Paterno is not the one that should be held fully responsible for this stuff, he did was asked of him.

His job is to run a football team, it is not to investigate an accusation by a GA against someone else in the AD. He reported it and then got back to work. That is not morally what he should have done but it is not wrong in terms of legality or contractual obligations he has to Penn State. The entire admin that covered this up for 10 years should be prosecuted and put in jail for many many years. JoePa should retire and disappear from the public eye, and be remembered for his football legacy not this mess in the Athletic Department at Penn State.

 

[Liver]

I dont think Slade is saying that Joe Pa wasn't wrong in not doing more. I think he is saying the same thing that I am. Paterno is not the one that should be held fully responsible for this stuff, he did was asked of him.

His job is to run a football team, it is not to investigate an accusation by a GA against someone else in the AD. He reported it and then got back to work. That is not morally what he should have done but it is not wrong in terms of legality or contractual obligations he has to Penn State. The entire admin that covered this up for 10 years should be prosecuted and put in jail for many many years. JoePa should retire and disappear from the public eye, and be remembered for his football legacy not this mess in the Athletic Department at Penn State.

wrong. if they are mandated reporters, they had a legal duty to do more than they did.

 

[Buffarino]

I dont think Slade is saying that Joe Pa wasn't wrong in not doing more. I think he is saying the same thing that I am. Paterno is not the one that should be held fully responsible for this stuff, he did was asked of him.

I don't think anyone's saying he should be fully responsible. But he should not be held blameless, either. He knew of the allegations and he knew that nothing was done. I don't know how that senile old **** lives with himself.

 

[Duff Man]

Someone else in the AD?????? Holy ****, it was not just "someone else in the AD," it was a longtime friend of Paterno who coached under him for decades.

 

[Shldr2Shldr]

wrong. if they are mandated reporters, they had a legal duty to do more than they did.

Is the head football coach considered a teacher at the college level? For example at CU the athletic department is actually seperate from the university. Here they are Athletic Department employees rather than University Faculty.

 

[NW Buff]

Mandatory reporting laws are state-to-sate and Paterno did not violate any PA law in that respect.

 

[sackman]

I'm not going down the morality path. It's neither here nor there for me to comment on Joe Paterno's morality. I've got way too many skeletons in my closet to start talking about whether someone should be more or less "moral".

Everybody has skeletons in their closet. That doesn't mean we can't tell right from wrong. I don't see the correlation.

 

[NW Buff]

Do you mean the grand jury report? Or the actual grand jury testimony? I can find the grand jury report, and I've read it. I haven't seen the actual grand jury testimony, and didn't realize grand jury testimony was public.

The report, which basically lays out what the GA said to the grand jury.

 

[Lt.Col.FrankSlade]

wrong. if they are mandated reporters, they had a legal duty to do more than they did.

That is true. Two administrators of Penn State have been charged with failure to report, so apparently there is a law on the Penn books requiring certain types of reporting. However, I don't know what the law in Penn is (and I couldn't quickly find it when looking at their Code).

 

[Lt.Col.FrankSlade]

Everybody has skeletons in their closet. That doesn't mean we can't tell right from wrong. I don't see the correlation.

Certain people are quite offended by Paterno's actions, and feel he acted "wrong." I, do not.

Other people's version and my version of "right and wrong" are not necessarily the same thing.

 

[Buffarino]

Certain people are quite offended by Paterno's actions, and feel he acted "wrong." I, do not.

You have kids, right?