WarBuff
Club Member
Unfortunately special teams are some players rare chance to see the field. Not sure what to do with this.
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New Kickoff Rule
- Thread starter Bison
- Start date
DrunkRalphie
Well-Known Member
Football is played for the benefit of getting special teams players a handful of snaps?
WarBuff
Club Member
No, just an opportunity for some to get a chance.
It seems like the whole concussion narrative is an attack on football and the barbaric nature of the game. Guys are getting paid very well to play in the NFL. Have some players suffered from the effects of CTE? Yes, but it's a tiny percentage relative to the overall number of player who have played in the NFL. The chances of severe injury are very small and it's an inherently dangerous game that guys have the choice whether or not to take that small risk to potentially make millions of dollars.
Let's earmark this post.
Agreed...I don't think it will be that big of a deal if kickoffs & punts were eliminated. Just start every drive on the 20 yard line.
I played just under three full seasons of high school football on the offensive and defensive lines. If I had known that I'd suffer migraines every two to three days for about ten years and then my memory not being as good as it could have been, I'd have passed on playing football. Agree with @Highlander to earmark your post.
I had a mild concussion from a car accident about 5 years ago. My short term memory was **** for 60+ days. I wish that experience on exactly no one.
Ouch man...I'd not wish my migraines on anyone either.
This is not to downplay your suffering at all, as I truly feel for your situation. However, my sister suffers from migraines, as well, and she played Volleyball for 4 years and that’s it. My point is, every person’s biology is different and you have no idea if 3 years of high school football is the direct cause of your migraines and memory issues.
As for “earmarking” Carolina’s post, I don’t really know why... The information is out there about CTE and concussions and has been for years now. These guys are making the choice to play a game that everybody knows is inherently dangerous to both short and long term health.
SuperiorBuff
Well-Known Member
I view kickoffs as a defensive opportunity to pin the offense deep. Strong kicker who can drop the ball on the 2-yard line with good Hang Time is invaluable.
It's possible this year might even be the last year we do kickoffs in football. The Alliance of American Football launches next year and they will not have kickoffs and not even have PAT kicks. Perhaps punts will be going as well. Their season would end around the time of the NFL Draft next year so it's very likely that there is enough feedback from the Alliance to make a determination on kickoffs. If people respond favorably to the Alliance, it'll be the beginning of the end of kickoffs.
I still enjoy playing videogame football and have always used the super sim feature to simulate the game while my team was on defense and it did the same for punts and kickoffs. I think people will not necessarily miss the kickoffs after they are removed from the game.
I still enjoy playing videogame football and have always used the super sim feature to simulate the game while my team was on defense and it did the same for punts and kickoffs. I think people will not necessarily miss the kickoffs after they are removed from the game.
I have this old book on the history of football. It was published in the early 1950s, and was devoted almost entirely to college football, because pro football was little more than a side-note back then. Around the turn of the last century football really started changing, and lots of those changes were aimed at reducing injuries. One of the strangest things involved the introduction of the snap. Prior to the introduction of the snap, the "center" would actually have to kick the ball to one of the backs, and since there was no forward pass there was nothing that we would recognize as a quarterback today. And when they introduced the forward pass it not only had to go forward, but at least five yards laterally, so they had chalk lines going the length of the field so that the players and the officials could judge whether the ball went five yards laterally (creating a grid pattern, hence the name "gridiron"). And an incomplete pass resulted in a penalty. At some point about 120 years ago (I don't have the book in front of me, so I don't have the date), they introduced the concept of "downs," and it started with 3, like in Canadian football, and then went to 4. And Harvard, Yale, and Princeton were the big teams back then. And at every move people literally said "this isn't even football anymore." Yet we still have football.
Like you, Buffnik, I accept the change.
Regarding "special teams". Yes, they are special and maybe need to be reduced or eliminated and to partly address (head) injuries.
For example, do away with punting. It, like its slang meaning of "to avoid", is to give up going for it and punt the ball away. Have a true four downs of "play". This will make for more action and for more scoring due to field position will not be reversed so quickly.
And yes, kickoffs are kind of senseless now with the new kickoff rules. The only question or interest now is for onside kicks -- don't know how or if that should be addressed.
For example, do away with punting. It, like its slang meaning of "to avoid", is to give up going for it and punt the ball away. Have a true four downs of "play". This will make for more action and for more scoring due to field position will not be reversed so quickly.
And yes, kickoffs are kind of senseless now with the new kickoff rules. The only question or interest now is for onside kicks -- don't know how or if that should be addressed.
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I played the game until it cost me my knees and in some ways am thankful for that because it meant I didn't play long enough to have any impact (that I know about) on my brain and I didn't end up with the bad back that all the big guys I know who played longer have. To me the risk of injury was worth the pleasure I got from the game.
The idea that it is a tiny percentage relative to the number of guys who have played in the NFL is a ridiculous statement. Considering that many, many players have suffered multiple concussions at the college and even high school level I would be shocked if the number of people impacted isn't a multiple of the number of people who have played in the NFL. It is crystal clear that big human bodies are not designed to repeatedly run into other big human bodies over and over and over again.
What I have a problem with is the "symbolic" changes being made for appearances sake without looking at the actual things that are causing the real damage.
Some steps are real and significant. Targeting rules have greatly reduced the amount of major impacts to the head, probably increase knee injuries but reduced head injuries. Coaching changes down to the youth level now coach away from using the head as a weapon and from hitting opponents in the head.
The next change that will make a real difference is moving to a wrap and drag emphasis in tackling from the hit and knock down emphasis. Carroll already started with the Seahawks bringing in a tackling coach from the Australian rugby leagues. Not only did it reduce the number and severity of the injuries but it also improved their defensive performance.
A good question was asked earlier about how many injuries occur on kickoffs. It's a good question. My sense is that this rule is more about appearance. It is another step so that if they end up in court they can say they are doing something.
DrunkRalphie
Well-Known Member
Watched the video. He didn't sell me. I enjoy watching the KO and don't want it to go away.
Deleted member 807
Guest
On this note, w/o KO there may be fewer burned redshirts.
Would 85 scholarships be the right number for FB by taking away one phase of STs?
Lawsuits aside there is the fact that the game is actually killing people
That's what we may care about - the suffering fo people - but the NFL cares about the money. Lawsuits and reduced participation & interest in football leading to devaluing their investments in owning teams.
Even 4th and 15 plays have a better chance of being converted by onside kicks in the 4Q according to that video. 31.2% on 4th and 10 versus 5.2%.
FCS teams have been operating with 63 scholarships for years. Maybe we would no longer need two separate divisions in D1 football in that case.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap30...nt-nfl-will-absolutely-not-eliminate-kickoffs
NFL will have kickoffs in the upcoming season but will modify the rules instead of eliminating kickoffs. I have read other reports that the NFL will move kickoffs up to the 35 yard line but it didn't work in the 2016 preseason.
NFL will have kickoffs in the upcoming season but will modify the rules instead of eliminating kickoffs. I have read other reports that the NFL will move kickoffs up to the 35 yard line but it didn't work in the 2016 preseason.
Some stats on are in on the NFL's changes:
Back in 2010, 15% of kickoffs were touchbacks, that's up to 62% today, and onside kick recoveries are down by 50%.
All of which means that kickoffs are becoming more and more pointless, while sucking up a tremendous amount of time (score, beer commercial, extra point, truck commercial, kickoff, tv show commercial)
Even without the commercial breaks, kickoffs take the longest of any particular play to set up:
- There's no clock, so no reason for anyone to set up quickly,
- a completely different set of players needs to get on the field
- the kicker has to get their tee setup,
- the officials have to shuttle in the special kicking ball,
- the kicker has to set the ball in the tee,
- everyone has to get lined up,
- the kicker signals,
- the ref signals,
- and then if something actually happens, there's frequently a penalty which:
- likely negates any exciting outcome of the play
- or results in having to do the whole thing over again
- finally, due to the higher frequency of injury, there are more injury time outs too
and while all this is going on, the excitement in the stadium is slowly deflating...
Which leaves room for a solution that probably increases excitement, takes less time, and generates fewer injuries. But most interesting of all is that theowner's well paid ventriloquist dummy league commissioner is actually advocating for a particular solution:
Eliminate kickoffs entirely.
The idea is to give the offense that just scored the ball on their own 30 yard line with a 4th & 15 scenario. They can go for it - or punt.
Apparently, the historic norm for on-side kick recovery has been around 15%, after the safety driven rules changes this year it's 8%. The stats geeks say that 4 & 15 conversions are usually converted around 12.5% of the time, so the numbers are at least close. And that 12.5% would be expected to rise a little bit as offenses spent more time working on that specific scenario. There are also the "offensive momentum" arguments, as well as "tired" defense arguments - which ties back to the "it will make the game go faster" idea: offenses would be pushing to get on the field quickly to maintain their momentum advantage instead of all the dilly-dallying around you get right now for setting up the kick off. Give teams a competitive reason to go faster, and they'll go faster.
Regardless, the point is that it's unlikely that the 4th & 15s would be converted at a faster rate than onside kicks have historically been converted, so you're not talking about a major change in outcomes in the "go for it" scenario.
Back in 2010, 15% of kickoffs were touchbacks, that's up to 62% today, and onside kick recoveries are down by 50%.
All of which means that kickoffs are becoming more and more pointless, while sucking up a tremendous amount of time (score, beer commercial, extra point, truck commercial, kickoff, tv show commercial)
Even without the commercial breaks, kickoffs take the longest of any particular play to set up:
- There's no clock, so no reason for anyone to set up quickly,
- a completely different set of players needs to get on the field
- the kicker has to get their tee setup,
- the officials have to shuttle in the special kicking ball,
- the kicker has to set the ball in the tee,
- everyone has to get lined up,
- the kicker signals,
- the ref signals,
- and then if something actually happens, there's frequently a penalty which:
- likely negates any exciting outcome of the play
- or results in having to do the whole thing over again
- finally, due to the higher frequency of injury, there are more injury time outs too
and while all this is going on, the excitement in the stadium is slowly deflating...
Which leaves room for a solution that probably increases excitement, takes less time, and generates fewer injuries. But most interesting of all is that the
Eliminate kickoffs entirely.
The idea is to give the offense that just scored the ball on their own 30 yard line with a 4th & 15 scenario. They can go for it - or punt.
Apparently, the historic norm for on-side kick recovery has been around 15%, after the safety driven rules changes this year it's 8%. The stats geeks say that 4 & 15 conversions are usually converted around 12.5% of the time, so the numbers are at least close. And that 12.5% would be expected to rise a little bit as offenses spent more time working on that specific scenario. There are also the "offensive momentum" arguments, as well as "tired" defense arguments - which ties back to the "it will make the game go faster" idea: offenses would be pushing to get on the field quickly to maintain their momentum advantage instead of all the dilly-dallying around you get right now for setting up the kick off. Give teams a competitive reason to go faster, and they'll go faster.
Regardless, the point is that it's unlikely that the 4th & 15s would be converted at a faster rate than onside kicks have historically been converted, so you're not talking about a major change in outcomes in the "go for it" scenario.
I like this idea. If Kickoffs are dangerous, we need to change them so they are not as dangerous. Making them meaningless sucks.
I think I love this.
Net punting is around 40 yards, so a punt is usually going to give the pall around the 20. And punt returns are a lot more exiting than kickoff returns.
The 4th & 15 play would be so much better than an onside kick, which takes forever and always results in multiple reviews if anything close to a recovery happens from it.
Sign me up!
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Bonus:
There would never be another "kickoff specialist" kicker on a roster again. Kickers would be able to specialize in kicking field goals and only field goals.
Around 10-15 NFL teams a year seem to carry two kickers on their roster - they'd essentially gain an extra roster position that could go to a real football player.
The effects on college rosters would be even larger.
There would never be another "kickoff specialist" kicker on a roster again. Kickers would be able to specialize in kicking field goals and only field goals.
Around 10-15 NFL teams a year seem to carry two kickers on their roster - they'd essentially gain an extra roster position that could go to a real football player.
The effects on college rosters would be even larger.
I think I agree with you. The thing I don't like about it is the affects that it might have in CFB where defenses play with a lot less discipline. Given the high flying offenses these days, especially early in the season when defenses seem to still be catching up to a few new concepts and wrinkles. Imagine playing a team like Washington State early in the year, and Mike Leach going for it early and often in the first quarter, before your defense has an opportunity to make adjustments to what their doing on offense. You could be down 21-0 before your offense has a chance to see the field.
I agree with what you are saying about the effects on college rosters. If kickoffs were eliminated, there wouldn't be the need for those extra players for special teams. Just imagine how many schools would find it easier to be in compliance with Title IX and how many more sports could be added as a result. Maybe colleges will be able to actually start paying the players.