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Officially off the Macintyre bandwagon

So it has to be Eliot and only Eliot who is the problem. No talent issues or coaching issues elsewhere on defense.

Good thing recruiting is not a problem, seeing as we have one DL commit. Just as long as we pull in a couple before signing day that no one has heard of yet, it's all good. No way you should be questioning recruiting at all. If only Eliot could coordinate these star players in the front seven. He really needs to stop holding Jeffcoat back.
 
AeroBuff99 said:
Point being that you can't judge the performance of a coach by comparison to what another coach has done at another school in another situation. Urban Meyer has never stayed long enough at one job to say what his long term success would be. If he can sustain tOSU for the next 5 years, then we could elevate him to the upper echelon of coaching, but until then you can't use what he did at Utah and Florida as an example of what should happen here. Urban took over teams with tons of talent (relative to its peers) everywhere he went. I never said he couldn't maintain success, simply because he hasn't been anywhere long enough to prove if he can.
Click to expand...
Come on, man.

If Urban Meyer isn't in the upper echelon of college coaches, then there is only 1 coach who meets your standard (and Saban only reached it in the last few years after being someone prior to that who had switched jobs several times).
 
MtnBuff said:
And Whittingham and his staff have always, yes always, recruited in the lines. Last season again 3 offensive linemen were drafted and made NFL rosters, Garrett Bowles in the first round by Denver and Isaac Asiata in the fifth by Miami (and both are playing for their teams.) as well as another drafted in the fifth who is currently on Cincinnati's practice squad. Sam Tevi was drafted in the sixth and is on the Chargers roster.

By the way lose those guys to the draft and their OL is still better than ours, they kept recruiting and had guys to step in.

On defense Utah had 7 DL on NFL rosters last season and 3 more went to camps this season.

Compare that to what we have been producing in our lines and yes there is a huge difference in recruiting going on.
Click to expand...
Great point. Mac needs to get the line recruiting up to snuff ASAP...pretty simple. IMO all the other positions we have P5 quality guys...but football is won with the QB and the lines...and we have 1 out of 3 right now.
 
8Jah said:
Tyler Lytle - highly rated, lightly recruited outside CU. WRONG! THE KID RECEIVED P5 OFFERS AFTER COMMITTING. HIGHEST RECRUITED CU QB IN OVER 10 YEARS.
Jaylon Jackson - lightly recruited as senior (after two injuries) outside of CU ALSO, NOT TRUE DESPITE HAVING KNEE SURGERY
Laviska Shenault - Good get. AGREE!
Will Sherman - would never have stayed without a good season.
Grant Polley - barely stayed - good season kept him. NOT TRUE AND WE NEED TO GET USE TO KIDS TAKING OFFICIALS DESPITE COMMITTING EARLY.
Chris Miller - lightly recruited before he blew up. Good season certainly kept him. ALL ARE LIGHTly RECRUITED BEFORE BLOWING UP. LMAO
Maurice Bell - highly ranked, not strongly recruited. don't know if we would have kept him w/o season. PLAYS IN A STRONG CALI LEAGUE AND A COMPLETE STEAL.

These guys were also taking there visits and doing camps when they could see our 2016 team before we could. Everyone knew last summer they had something.
Click to expand...


Tyler Lytle - highly rated, lightly recruited outside CU. WRONG! THE KID RECEIVED P5 OFFERS AFTER COMMITTING. HIGHEST RECRUITED CU QB IN OVER 10 YEARS.
Jaylon Jackson - lightly recruited as senior (after two injuries) outside of CU ALSO, NOT TRUE DESPITE HAVING KNEE SURGERY
Laviska Shenault - Good get. AGREE!
Will Sherman - would never have stayed without a good season.
Grant Polley - barely stayed - good season kept him. NOT TRUE AND WE NEED TO GET USE TO KIDS TAKING OFFICIALS DESPITE COMMITTING EARLY.
Chris Miller - lightly recruited before he blew up. Good season certainly kept him. ALL ARE LIGHT RECRUITED BEFORE BLOWING UP. LMAO
Maurice Bell - highly ranked, not strongly recruited. don't know if we would have kept him w/o season. PLAYS IN A STRONG CALI LEAGUE.
 
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Ok, data. Rivals team rankings 5yrs prior to MM vs the 5 classes since MM.

2008 - 15 2013 - 67
2009 - 48 2014 - 63
2010 - 66 Vs. 2015 - 70
2011 - 74 2016 - 65
2012 - 36. 2017 - 32
 
Buffnik said:
Come on, man.

If Urban Meyer isn't in the upper echelon of college coaches, then there is only 1 coach who meets your standard (and Saban only reached it in the last few years after being someone prior to that who had switched jobs several times).
Click to expand...
I never said he wasn't. Someone said that he went out and recruited talent to Utah, he was there for 2 years and won with the talent he had before parlaying that into a better job at Florida. He didn't recruit enough talent there to build a program. He himself said he only took jobs that already had talent in place to win. He took over from Ron Zook at UF. Zook was an outstanding recruiter but couldn't coach for crap. He made an immediate impact there, recruited some top talent, then left when the program had a down year. Now he is at tOSU in year 6 and looks to be sustaining that success, but people would be kidding themselves to say that he built that program. It was already near the top when he took over, all he had to do is continue to get the same level of players they have always had. Everyone always has some thing that they want to harp on, recruiting, coaching, demeanor. They are always comparing to other coaches at other places in other situations.

BTW, if you really want to know my opinion, the best currently active football coach is Bill Snyder and no one else even gets close. Sometimes you have to look beyond things like recruiting rankings, wins, and losses.
 
Ok, data. Rivals team rankings 5yrs prior to MM vs the 5 classes since MM.

2008 - 15
2009 - 48
2010 - 66
2011 - 74
2012 - 36

2013 - 67
2014 - 63
2015 - 70
2016 - 65
2017 - 32
 
AeroBuff99 said:
Point being that you can't judge the performance of a coach by comparison to what another coach has done at another school in another situation. Urban Meyer has never stayed long enough at one job to say what his long term success would be. If he can sustain tOSU for the next 5 years, then we could elevate him to the upper echelon of coaching, but until then you can't use what he did at Utah and Florida as an example of what should happen here. Urban took over teams with tons of talent (relative to its peers) everywhere he went. I never said he couldn't maintain success, simply because he hasn't been anywhere long enough to prove if he can.
Click to expand...

Okay, I got it. After 16 years and never a losing record - the jury is still out if Meyer is a good coach because he has never been anywhere longer than 6 years. Can't you just admit it was a bad example. In the P5 conferences you are not going to win on talent alone (You do need talent) -at Florida and Ohio State he did not have overwhelming talent compared to his peers. I think most observers of college football today would put Meyer as one of the top 2 coaches in the game today.
 
AeroBuff99 said:
I never said he wasn't. Someone said that he went out and recruited talent to Utah, he was there for 2 years and won with the talent he had before parlaying that into a better job at Florida. He didn't recruit enough talent there to build a program. He himself said he only took jobs that already had talent in place to win. He took over from Ron Zook at UF. Zook was an outstanding recruiter but couldn't coach for crap. He made an immediate impact there, recruited some top talent, then left when the program had a down year. Now he is at tOSU in year 6 and looks to be sustaining that success, but people would be kidding themselves to say that he built that program. It was already near the top when he took over, all he had to do is continue to get the same level of players they have always had. Everyone always has some thing that they want to harp on, recruiting, coaching, demeanor. They are always comparing to other coaches at other places in other situations.

BTW, if you really want to know my opinion, the best currently active football coach is Bill Snyder and no one else even gets close. Sometimes you have to look beyond things like recruiting rankings, wins, and losses.
Click to expand...
I respect Snyder but wouldn’t put him there. Fair opinion, though.

With Urban there was also the Bowling Green job (iirc - it was some MAC program). He almost didn’t take it because they were in horrible shape. He asked Lou Holts for his guidance and Lou told him that if they were in good shape they wouldn’t need him so take the opportunity and do your thing. Urban isn’t someone who demanded the table be set, but as he progressed so did his leverage on what jobs he was willing to take.
 
Interesting lines from an Andy Staples SI article about Butch Jones' time at Tenn:

"He came along at a dark time and pulled the program out of a hole. But once he got Tennessee back on level ground, he couldn’t take the Vols any higher."

"Despite this season’s record, Tennessee is a far better job today than when Jones got it."

"He didn’t finish the house, and the mounting construction delays necessitated a sale to another builder, but he brought in enough bricks to lay a solid foundation. Now it’s up to Currie {the AD} to find the coach who will finish the job."

Don't think I'm there yet with MM, but many of the sentiments in this thread mirror the concerns that ultimately led to Jones getting his walking papers.
 
Wait til next year. If Mac loses again and has a weak recruiting class then I’ll be calling for his head. Until then I’ll just have to wait. If Mac doesn’t shake up the coaching staff in December/January, I may move up that time table.
 
DBT said:
Wait til next year. If Mac loses again and has a weak recruiting class then I’ll be calling for his head. Until then I’ll just have to wait. If Mac doesn’t shake up the coaching staff in December/January, I may move up that time table.
Click to expand...
This ^^^^
 
DBT said:
Wait til next year. If Mac loses again and has a weak recruiting class then I’ll be calling for his head. Until then I’ll just have to wait. If Mac doesn’t shake up the coaching staff in December/January, I may move up that time table.
Click to expand...
Agreed.
 
BuffaloB said:
Ok, data. Rivals team rankings 5yrs prior to MM vs the 5 classes since MM.

2008 - 15
2009 - 48
2010 - 66
2011 - 74
2012 - 36

2013 - 67
2014 - 63
2015 - 70
2016 - 65
2017 - 32
Click to expand...
So 47.8 before MikMac and 59.4 after.

What I wanna know is: do stars matter?
 
leftybuff said:
So 47.8 before MikMac and 59.4 after.

What I wanna know is: do stars matter?
Click to expand...
My feeling is it's not an exact science. There are 5* busts and 2* HOF players. But I generally feel that the more top rated players you recruit the better. It provides depth and insurance on busts, academic failings and bad teenage decion making to not hurt the program overall. There is no coach who would not rather have as many 4 or 5* recruits over 2 or 3*.

My point was only that so many people talk about how MM has built program from nothing, that the cupboard was empty, they were the worse program in P5. At least from a recruiting point of view they are worse under MM then they were he previous 5 yrs before him. Now if he can get a few 4* guys closing out this year maybe he can pull of back to back rankings in the 30s, but not holding my breath based on what I'm seeing currently.

Time will tell.
 
Comparing recruiting class rank above 30 means almost nothing. Few people know all the sausage making that goes on at these recruiting services. Services whose real job it is to do nothing more than entertain you. There are over 1 million growing/learning teenagers who play HS FB spread over 4 million ****ing miles and seven time zones. Recruiting services bring their tape and scales to measure 4 and 5 stars. They got that down. They rank low three stars on rumors they hear from coaches and other players. They give a honorary two star to anyone they haven't heard about. How come there are no one stars. Guess everyone gets a medal that way.

Yeah for Alabama and USC and Notre Dame those recruiting rankings really tell them something. For the rest of us we have to have a different strategy.

To those black and white types here that struggle with any nuance whatsoever, this DOES NOT mean that recruiting isn't important. We just don't have a means of comparing with our peers. You see how well you did by looking at what you see on the field three years later. ..and I think you see PAC12 players at CU now where you didn't three years ago. you can argue that our Dline has recruit problems, but we had a good dline and a good dline recruiting class last year...so I don't know there. Just think peoples expectations of where we could be recruiting at this point are unreasonable. We are getting good enough recruits to do better than we currently are.
 
8Jah said:
Comparing recruiting class rank above 30 means almost nothing. Few people know all the sausage making that goes on at these recruiting services. Services whose real job it is to do nothing more than entertain you. There are over 1 million growing/learning teenagers who play HS FB spread over 4 million ****ing miles and seven time zones. Recruiting services bring their tape and scales to measure 4 and 5 stars. They got that down. They rank low three stars on rumors they hear from coaches and other players. They give a honorary two star to anyone they haven't heard about. How come there are no one stars. Guess everyone gets a medal that way.

Yeah for Alabama and USC and Notre Dame those recruiting rankings really tell them something. For the rest of us we have to have a different strategy.

To those black and white types here that struggle with any nuance whatsoever, this DOES NOT mean that recruiting isn't important. We just don't have a means of comparing with our peers. You see how well you did by looking at what you see on the field three years later. ..and I think you see PAC12 players at CU now where you didn't three years ago. you can argue that our Dline has recruit problems, but we had a good dline and a good dline recruiting class last year...so I don't know there. Just think peoples expectations of where we could be recruiting at this point are unreasonable. We are getting good enough recruits to do better than we currently are.
Click to expand...
I don't understand why you say recruiting isn't important.
 
You keep on saying recruiting is important, but then you walk back the importance in the rest of the post. You are purposefully downplaying recruiting rankings and other recruiting metrics. There is a massive difference between 30 and 55, yet you have somehow convinced yourself there is no difference by cherry-picking a few outliers, including two G5 schools(?!?!).

No one is denying the talent has improved from 2013, but there is room for improvement without Top 10 expectations.

Are you honestly going to sit there and say there are no recruiting issues on defense? That it is merely a coordinator issue? There are major depth issues across the front seven, and the front line talent is nothing special.

Your "nuance" boils down to dismissing recruiting rankings while taking jabs at Eliot and adding immeasurable factors like "hard work" into the picture. Big time analysis there.
 
I think MikMac is here in 2018 barring an Ole Miss hire or a video of him molesting dead puppies at Sarah Kuta's house surfaces. He should be here next year. But, if Cu shats the bed again, maybe we will have seen all the best MikMac has to offer and it will be time to move on....
 
8Jah said:
Comparing recruiting class rank above 30 means almost nothing. Few people know all the sausage making that goes on at these recruiting services. Services whose real job it is to do nothing more than entertain you. There are over 1 million growing/learning teenagers who play HS FB spread over 4 million ****ing miles and seven time zones. Recruiting services bring their tape and scales to measure 4 and 5 stars. They got that down. They rank low three stars on rumors they hear from coaches and other players. They give a honorary two star to anyone they haven't heard about. How come there are no one stars. Guess everyone gets a medal that way.

Yeah for Alabama and USC and Notre Dame those recruiting rankings really tell them something. For the rest of us we have to have a different strategy.

To those black and white types here that struggle with any nuance whatsoever, this DOES NOT mean that recruiting isn't important. We just don't have a means of comparing with our peers. You see how well you did by looking at what you see on the field three years later. ..and I think you see PAC12 players at CU now where you didn't three years ago. you can argue that our Dline has recruit problems, but we had a good dline and a good dline recruiting class last year...so I don't know there. Just think peoples expectations of where we could be recruiting at this point are unreasonable. We are getting good enough recruits to do better than we currently are.
Click to expand...


This is your opinion (unless you have something to back it up). Others of us disagree. There has been a ton of statistical studies that show correlation between recruiting success and on field success even well beyond your arbitrary 30 number. Here is a graph from 2015 which pretty clearly shows correlation between winning and recruiting beyond you 30 number.

TKFTnLj.png
 
BuffaloB said:
Ok, data. Rivals team rankings 5yrs prior to MM vs the 5 classes since MM.

2008 - 15 2013 - 67
2009 - 48 2014 - 63
2010 - 66 Vs. 2015 - 70
2011 - 74 2016 - 65
2012 - 36. 2017 - 32
Click to expand...

So in the last year of HCMM's contract extension, the Buffs will win the Pac-12 CCG?
 
BlackNGold said:
This is your opinion (unless you have something to back it up). Others of us disagree. There has been a ton of statistical studies that show correlation between recruiting success and on field success even well beyond your arbitrary 30 number. Here is a graph from 2015 which pretty clearly shows correlation between winning and recruiting beyond you 30 number.
Click to expand...

"Recruiting success" means a whole lot...but, outside of top programs Recruiting Success doesnt equal recruiting rank.

Here you go for starters:

https://www.footballstudyhall.com/2...-rankings-are-flawed-metrics-talent-blue-chip

Choice quotes:

"Everyone agrees that recruiting is an immensely important part of college football."

"Big picture points focusing on how only teams recruiting blue chippers are winning titles have obscured what still seems to be an obvious fact within the world of college football....that the recruiting rankings regularly fail to predict the success of major teams each season."

"For picking out which three-star loaded also rans might be sleeping giants? The services are nearly entirely useless."

"So it seems that the best strategy in college football is to combine one of the few elite coaches with top five recruiting classes every single year in order to gain a decisive advantage over your competitors.
Obviously that's not going to happen for most teams, so why do they insist on playing by the same rules, spending massive resources squabbling over the cream of the crop? Most Power-5 teams are not going to finish as the "king of the mountain" very often so why even approach recruiting in that manner?"
 
8Jah said:
"Recruiting success" means a whole lot...but, outside of top programs Recruiting Success doesnt equal recruiting rank.

Here you go for starters:

https://www.footballstudyhall.com/2...-rankings-are-flawed-metrics-talent-blue-chip

Choice quotes:

"Everyone agrees that recruiting is an immensely important part of college football."

"Big picture points focusing on how only teams recruiting blue chippers are winning titles have obscured what still seems to be an obvious fact within the world of college football....that the recruiting rankings regularly fail to predict the success of major teams each season."

"For picking out which three-star loaded also rans might be sleeping giants? The services are nearly entirely useless."

"So it seems that the best strategy in college football is to combine one of the few elite coaches with top five recruiting classes every single year in order to gain a decisive advantage over your competitors.
Obviously that's not going to happen for most teams, so why do they insist on playing by the same rules, spending massive resources squabbling over the cream of the crop? Most Power-5 teams are not going to finish as the "king of the mountain" very often so why even approach recruiting in that manner?"
Click to expand...
I'm not asking CU to be top 10 or even 20, but constantly in the 30s with an occasional top 20 class does not seem to be asking to much considering the school, facilities and conference. MM has been living in the 60s which is not sustainable for long term success regardless of our opinions on recruiting.
 
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