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Officially off the Macintyre bandwagon
- Thread starter Denver_sc
- Start date
pcbuff
Well-Known Member
On the field they are acceptable. In recruiting they aren’t.
Garbage, and I could use a stronger word.
Recruiting isn't about having "that guy" it is about having a roster full of guys who make multi-year contributions, it's about have way fewer guys who never make it to the field because the just aren't good enough.
Meyer, Petersen, and Harbough didn't build programs by magically turning a bunch of average kids into top teams, the went out and got the players they needed.
I can also tell you that none of those three place all the weight of recruiting on a few of their assistants. The have staffs that are out there selling, and even with the high profile jobs they have now they have the staff on the road selling, that is how winning works.
This isn't about rebuilding, every program has up years and down years relatively.
It is about getting our butts kicked on the LOS and not having a lot of hope of getting better. What is in our talent pipeline on the defensive line that makes anyone think that this years problems are a one year thing.
We continue to scramble to find JUCO DL because for five years we haven't effectively recruited HS talent at the position.
This isn't a charity, we cannot afford to continue to carry certain assistant coaches who do not bring value to their jobs. If you don't recruit you had better be really special at something else, these guys aren't. The teams that are beating us have guys in those spots who do bring the value.
SINKRATZ
PhD in Analogy
If Mac and his staff were half the coaches those guys are then you wouldn't see so much concern about our recruiting.
They landed their QB.
Urban had Alex Smith at Utah -- #1 overall NFL draft pick
Harbaugh had Andrew Luck at Stanford -- #1 overall NFL draft pick
Petersen took over a dominant program where he'd been the OC, so didn't have to rebuild by getting "his guy" at QB -- but it was Kellen Moore's incredible efficiency as a college QB that took that program to a whole other level for Petersen
The formula that they all seemed to follow is getting the guy at QB while winning in the trenches. It's why my emphasis this offseason for assistant coach changes is to get guys who can recruit at DL & QB Coach.
You bring up Whitting ham again? He is considered one of the conference's best because his teams win. I am not going over his record again, suffice it to say he has NEVER finished last in the P12S. Maybe that is why he has some leeway when his team "slips". A "slip" is down from the norm, a winning season, a bowl game etc. When you finish deadlast 4/5 years, save one miracle season, it is a lot harder to say, wow, what a great HC, we definitely need him.
I suppose another way to look at MikMac is to say he does well with others recruits. Year five, his guys, his system, his program.Usually year five is the time when you can look back and see what you have. Aside from 2016, the W/L, which is the only thing that counts, is a disaster.
To me the trajectory looks like 2016 was the outlier and CU is going to get a whole bunch of '13,'14, '15 and '17 type records with MikMac at the helm.
I am not saying fire him, but it is getting very hard to see light at the end of the tunnel. It's not like ASU and fUCLA are world beaters, for instance, but CU is right back to assuming the role of close loser to those very pedestrian programs. So where is the bright light? Recruiting? Great AC's? It surely isn;t the W/L record. Even if CU gets to a bowl, it will be on the strength of a gimme OOC with three store bought wins. Beating Cal, Oregon St, and as you put it, a down Utah team, isn't much of an encore for a program on the "Rise".
SINKRATZ
PhD in Analogy
Yeah, that comparison to Whittingham's trajectory is laughable.
This is Whittingham's 13th season at Utah and he's finished below .500 only twice. He had 7 winning seasons, 6 bowl wins, and an undefeated season before his 1st losing season at Utah, so yeah he's earned some benefit of the doubt when he has a down year. Mac hasn't earned that benefit yet.
pcbuff
Well-Known Member
I think Montez is good to very good. Last year was the only year in the MM era where line play was acceptable on either side of the ball.
We always have a lack of depth and at least one guy that can be exploited.
I don’t like the thread title, because I still believe, but our recruiting in general and our line recruiting specifically need work.
SINKRATZ
PhD in Analogy
Well for the most part we have pretty weak recruiters so they must be really good coaches, right? If that's true, then improving recruiting should elevate the program. If it doesn't, we have bad coaches and need to clean house. At least in that scenario there would be some talent for the next staff to work with. The last thing you want is to come to the conclusion that your coaches aren't any good after 4-5 years of sh**ty recruiting.
Urban Meyer stated that he never took a coaching position where he thought the previous staff had done a poor job recruiting. So the key to success for him was avoiding dumpster fire jobs that required complete rebuilds. He was able to take Utah to the next level by implementing his offense and focusing on acquiring the talent he needed for that system knowing that the rest of the talent there was serviceable. If you look at his career, his longest tenure was at Florida for 6 years and is in his 6th at tOSU. He had a fall off in year 6 at Florida and I wonder how long before a fall off at tOSU takes. Point being that there are very few coaches in the game that have demonstrated the ability to maintain a high level over several years. It takes the ability to both coach and recruit, plus identify talent in both players and coaches to succeed in the long run. Saban has that, so did Bowden, Mac, Schembechler just to name a few. Point being that with almost any coach you are just along for the ride hoping that you can have success for a few years before their deficiencies start to make things fall apart.
I am not on or off the Macintyre bandwagon. I just want to see sustained success. If RG decides that MM's competency was rescuing downtrodden programs and that he isn't fit for taking us to the next level, I am fine with that. If he decides that he is, that is ok also. There will come a time that a change will be necessary. I don't know if it is now, but I don't have to make that decision. I just want the school to keep emphasizing the importance of sustained success while being good stewards of the finances.
I am not on or off the Macintyre bandwagon. I just want to see sustained success. If RG decides that MM's competency was rescuing downtrodden programs and that he isn't fit for taking us to the next level, I am fine with that. If he decides that he is, that is ok also. There will come a time that a change will be necessary. I don't know if it is now, but I don't have to make that decision. I just want the school to keep emphasizing the importance of sustained success while being good stewards of the finances.
Get to, and win, a bowl game and the season can hopefully be considered the new floor. I'm still fully behind MM, but want to see him address the ongoing weaknesses that continue to be exploited on this team.
It's as though you don't understand the fundamentals of debate Lefty.
MM's teams have improved each year - check.
MM's team this year took a step back. Point with Kyle W is so did his team. - check
A one year slip back to where we are essentially on par with everyone in the southern division except USC is not a reason to jump off a cliff.
This is why I bring up the Kyle Whittingham scenario. Can you see why this may be germane to the topic?
It's never a linear progression to the top.
8Jah
Well-Known Member
Urban Meyer - inherited a TWO STAR, completely unknown recruit named Alex Smith when he came to Utah in 2003. While at Utah he never had a recruiting class in the top half of bowl subdivision.Probably because not even Urban Meyer could recruit at Utah. When he got to Florida he had both great coaching and recruiting and National Championships.
Chris Petersen - We now know the following as fact: Petersen didn't inherit greatness from the Hawk, CU just removed Hawk from BSU so that Petersen could thrive. He then built America's darling program. Even so he could never get BSU into the top 30 or 40 classes. He goes to Washington and we know the story.
Jim Harbough - inherited a team that had recruited for years in the lower half. Didn't have Andrew Luck when he came. Built the program up to the point were they defeated the the Jim Carrol Juggernauts. They recruited Luck the next year as a low four star in a class that was otherwise no better than our 2017 class at the time. It took a few years of winning to get to their current recruiting status.
Much to learn in these stories. First, you are never going to get great recruiting in certain places like Utah and Boise State. But put those great coaches in the right places and top recruiting classes follow. Did they and their staffs all of the sudden become great recruiters? No, they always were good. Second, even at places like Stanford, you have to incrementally improve recruiting by building your program.
Boulder isn't Utah or Boise, but it isn't Stanford either. As we pulled ourselves out of the gutter, we incrementally built up our recruiting classes. Our classes are better now than they were in 2013 and 2014. but to get even better recruiting classes we have to win for a few years. To win with what we have we have to work harder.
Chris Petersen - We now know the following as fact: Petersen didn't inherit greatness from the Hawk, CU just removed Hawk from BSU so that Petersen could thrive. He then built America's darling program. Even so he could never get BSU into the top 30 or 40 classes. He goes to Washington and we know the story.
Jim Harbough - inherited a team that had recruited for years in the lower half. Didn't have Andrew Luck when he came. Built the program up to the point were they defeated the the Jim Carrol Juggernauts. They recruited Luck the next year as a low four star in a class that was otherwise no better than our 2017 class at the time. It took a few years of winning to get to their current recruiting status.
Much to learn in these stories. First, you are never going to get great recruiting in certain places like Utah and Boise State. But put those great coaches in the right places and top recruiting classes follow. Did they and their staffs all of the sudden become great recruiters? No, they always were good. Second, even at places like Stanford, you have to incrementally improve recruiting by building your program.
Boulder isn't Utah or Boise, but it isn't Stanford either. As we pulled ourselves out of the gutter, we incrementally built up our recruiting classes. Our classes are better now than they were in 2013 and 2014. but to get even better recruiting classes we have to win for a few years. To win with what we have we have to work harder.
vinniew_11
Well-Known Member
It’s the old chicken before the egg argument. There are those on this board who believe we can/should/could be recruiting better, totally disregarding a decade of futility of winning on the field, in which was in these kids recent memory. However, you do need better recruiting to win in a tough league. It has improved. But one winning season isn’t going to jump recruiting to the point it needs to be. It takes multiple winners
And Whittingham and his staff have always, yes always, recruited in the lines. Last season again 3 offensive linemen were drafted and made NFL rosters, Garrett Bowles in the first round by Denver and Isaac Asiata in the fifth by Miami (and both are playing for their teams.) as well as another drafted in the fifth who is currently on Cincinnati's practice squad. Sam Tevi was drafted in the sixth and is on the Chargers roster.
By the way lose those guys to the draft and their OL is still better than ours, they kept recruiting and had guys to step in.
On defense Utah had 7 DL on NFL rosters last season and 3 more went to camps this season.
Compare that to what we have been producing in our lines and yes there is a huge difference in recruiting going on.
The key is to pick three examples which have nothing to do with CU and then talk a whole lot about recruiting not really being important until year 8 or 9 of a head coach's tenure. Until then, time to hit the weights and allow some assistant coaches to just coast when it comes to recruiting. The players damn well better embrace hard work, but it is perfectly acceptable for coaches to only do part of their jobs.
You hit a key issue here as well.
Working hard is not the exception, it is the norm. Working hard does not give you an advantage, it puts you even with all the other schools that work hard as well, and still behind those that work hard and out recruit you.
8Jah
Well-Known Member
THIS
If this is the argument then a loss to Utah (losing season, no bowl) would be a major issue. You are basically saying that we aren't really allowed to judge MM's recruiting until he manages to string together multiple winning seasons.
On par with everyone in the south, ok, who has CU beat this year? At best they will be 1-4 in the division. Right now 0-4.
I will agree CU has improved every year. But they are not competitive in the P12 over the five year tenure of MikMac. Every year but 2016, they have been cellar dwellers.
I think you make a fundamental error comparing a guy who has never had a team in the P12 cellar, regularly goes to bowl games and wins them, and has a win percentage in conference nearly twice as high as MacIntyre. I think it is off base to say, well, Whittingham, with his record has a down year , and MikMac with his record has a down year and they are the same. They aren't. Whittingham has a lengthy successful record. MikMac has one season of success. They just do not compare.
I think MikMac will get another year, and I think he should. But it looks a lot like the handwriting is on the wall. CU is getting beat on the LOS, badly. The DL is a trainwreck , and the OL is not much better. Once the Seniors go, it gets pretty dicey. I would love to be proven wrong. It is hard to win a lot of FB games when you cannot win the battle up front. I would love to eat a big plate of crow when CU goes 8-4 next year. I fear I won't have to.
BlackNGold
Club Member
This is one of the most amazing posts that I have ever read. Urban Meyer as an example of a coach who cannot maintain excellence - he had never had a losing season as a HC and won 3 National Championships with a career record of 173-31. I have no idea what your point may be but you totally lost me with that example.
Then how did Chev land the De Soto boys last year? Why can't Jeffcoat land any of the priority HS DL targets? Is that just dumb luck or is Chev a better recruiter?
The answer is b)
Too easy?
8Jah
Well-Known Member
When you have an up and up program you get better recruits. When you get better recruits you have a better program. Its the rich get richer in college football. Rich=credibility, rich=momentum, rich=$
How do you win when you are poor? You find unknown ways to work harder to win with the team you have - because you have no other option other than cheating. Then you try to build virtuous cycle described above. That's the way its always been done.
I think you can criticize MM's recruiting all you want. you can criticize his staff all you want. All is fair. We can always try harder to recruit. Fine. But recruiting isn't the problem here.
The fact is that MM started with the worst football team in FBS. He improved our recruiting class rank EVERY YEAR since then. In 2016 we somehow built a top 10 defense from a 2013 recruiting class that was THE WORST IN P5. Now, for reasons that should be becoming obvious, we are back to a bad defense. blow-out losses-close losses-close wins-blowout wins. We have the best recruits we have been able to pull in as a program that was a dumpster fire five years ago and MM has the program stuck at close losses. That is the problem.
Point being that you can't judge the performance of a coach by comparison to what another coach has done at another school in another situation. Urban Meyer has never stayed long enough at one job to say what his long term success would be. If he can sustain tOSU for the next 5 years, then we could elevate him to the upper echelon of coaching, but until then you can't use what he did at Utah and Florida as an example of what should happen here. Urban took over teams with tons of talent (relative to its peers) everywhere he went. I never said he couldn't maintain success, simply because he hasn't been anywhere long enough to prove if he can.